Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 09:29AM

Danzy wrote: »

The Working Class are rising up in Chemnitz, no longer willing to be stabbed, raped and robbed so that their self perceived betters in the modern Left and establishment can indulge mad flights of fancy.

By pretending that these people are far right or even right wing, it is just another, in a long line, attempt to stifle debate, stifle opposition.

Very difficult to exactly understand what is happening in Chemnitz. Frightening actually to watch videos of it, not just because of the visceral anger of the protestors but also because of the uber-militarised police personnel and vehicles.
Also almost every media outlet describes it without question as ''far right'' protests - looking at the crowds it does seem there are some who might loosely fall into what one imagines the far right looks like (this ground is so tricky!), but after the camera moves from the obviously click-baity burly lads, there also looks like many older people, many regular townies.
Of the almost 10,000 who marched to demonstrate after Daniel Hillig's stabbing recently, there cannot surely be a majority of that crowd that is far right? Or even a significant number? So, why not say the townspeople also marched? And then the government might have to enter into discussions with these people to hear their side of the story. Because even if we might like to look on appalled at what we are told are German ''right wingers'' or whatever, something is rotten there...and needs to be addressed.

It's horrible actually. Lived in Germany for several years, and the protests were always groovy and peaceful in that time.

This tube is in German, but essentially these are for the most part ordinary folk. Ordinary but very angry people. Angry people with unpopular, uncomfortable views. They insist they are not radical right. Or ''Nazis''. Why are they repeatedly being deemed such by media?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiUQMWMjDog

Grayson · 03-09-2018 09:44AM

Danzy wrote: »

The Working Class are rising up in Chemnitz, no longer willing to be stabbed, raped and robbed so that their self perceived betters in the modern Left and establishment can indulge mad flights of fancy.

By pretending that these people are far right or even right wing, it is just another, in a long line, attempt to stifle debate, stifle opposition.

The guys who were "protesting" gave hitler salutes and chased down foreigners. I don't think anyone is pretending they're far right. Trying to say they're not is pretending.

Also, east germans have form when it comes to this.
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/01/world/a-wave-of-attacks-on-foreigners-stirs-shock-in-germany.html

The guy who was killed was cuban german and hated racists like the ones who are protesting his death. He was subjected to racist abuse in the past and knew those thugs for what they were. The crazy thing is that if he was still alive and had been need the protests he would have been one of the people that they chased down and assaulted.

I think that maybe rather than foreigners not integrating into germany it's the Saxons who aren't. Since reunification it's been the place with the most neo-nazi's, with the most violence against foreigners and also with the most subsidies.

It's worth remembering that east Germany is the place with the greatest concentration of far right supporters. Before the financial crises and current migration crises the far right were polling at about 10% there. It's where the NSU originated. And the NSU weren't part of an underground. There were openly neo nazi clubs and gatherings there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/15/neo-nazi-murders-revealing-germanys-darkest-secrets
There were also the Rostock riots where neo-nazi's, cheered on by the locals firebombed an apartment building. The occupants survived by fleeing to the roof and passing their children along the stairs in a human chain.

Shenshen · 03-09-2018 09:46AM

And at the same time, just shy of 20.000 people demonstrated in Berlin and Hamburg to make the cities "safe havens" for refugees coming across the mediterranean.

Only they did so peacefully, so the media don't care. To make the news, you have to apparently behave like the guys in Chemnitz, chase people through the streets, threaten and beat up bystanders, get into fights with the police and if you can cause some significant damages to private property.

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 09:52AM

Shenshen wrote: »

And at the same time, just shy of 20.000 people demonstrated in Berlin and Hamburg to make the cities "safe havens" for refugees coming across the mediterranean.

Only they did so peacefully, so the media don't care. To make the news, you have to apparently behave like the guys in Chemnitz, chase people through the streets, threaten and beat up bystanders, get into fights with the police and if you can cause some significant damages to private property.

I think as you do that the far right are odious. And I think they are also a small part of what's happening in Chemnitz, they are there, doubtless, but are not the whole story. Chemnitz has 250,000 population, Berlin has 3.5 million, Hamburg has more than 1.5 million, so the numbers are not telling the whole story. They tell some of the story, but there is another story going on in placeslike Chemnitz that cannot be completely ignored. Or it could be ignored but it will lead to bad things happening. And I am in touch with these stories as one of my children lives full time in the part of Germany that was formerly east Germany and is heavily involved with refugee welcome and settlement programs.

Shenshen · 03-09-2018 09:53AM

Malayalam wrote: »

Very difficult to exactly understand what is happening in Chemnitz. Frightening actually to watch videos of it, not just because of the visceral anger of the protestors but also because of the uber-militarised police personnel and vehicles.
Also almost every media outlet describes it without question as ''far right'' protests - looking at the crowds it does seem there are some who might loosely fall into what one imagines the far right looks like (this ground is so tricky!), but after the camera moves from the obviously click-baity burly lads, there also looks like many older people, many regular townies.
Of the almost 10,000 who marched to demonstrate after Daniel Hillig's stabbing recently, there cannot surely be a majority of that crowd that is far right? Or even a significant number? So, why not say the townspeople also marched? And then the government might have to enter into discussions with these people to hear their side of the story. Because even if we might like to look on appalled at what we are told are German ''right wingers'' or whatever, something is rotten there...and needs to be addressed.

It's horrible actually. Lived in Germany for several years, and the protests were always groovy and peaceful in that time.

This tube is in German, but essentially these are for the most part ordinary folk. Ordinary but very angry people. Angry people with unpopular, uncomfortable views. They insist they are not radical right. Or ''Nazis''. Why are they repeatedly being deemed such by media?

I grew up in Germany. If you want to find the died-in-the-wool right wing extremists, you need to look at people over 60. A sizeable chunk of them would put the Ku Klux Klan to shame.

And I'm old enough to remember the early 1990s, when "regular townsfolk" stood around and were clapping as right-wingers burned down an apartment block housing Vietnamese people - with people still inside. When firefighters arrived, those upstanding folks tried all they could to block their way.

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 09:58AM

Shenshen wrote: »

I grew up in Germany. If you want to find the died-in-the-wool right wing extremists, you need to look at people over 60. A sizeable chunk of them would put the Ku Klux Klan to shame.

And I'm old enough to remember the early 1990s, when "regular townsfolk" stood around and were clapping as right-wingers burned down an apartment block housing Vietnamese people - with people still inside. When firefighters arrived, those upstanding folks tried all they could to block their way.

Perhaps. There are bad people everywhere. Really bad. I worked always with Turkish gastarbeiters for the years I was there, as a cleaner etc., and I saw some really bad stuff as to how they were treated, I can tell you. I just think it might be worth it for the authorities to actually sit down with the people who are protesting and hear what their story is. To avoid the sh!t really hitting the fan.

Giraffe Box · 03-09-2018 10:01AM

Danzy wrote: »

The Working Class are rising up in Chemnitz, no longer willing to be stabbed, raped and robbed so that their self perceived betters in the modern Left and establishment can indulge mad flights of fancy.

By pretending that these people are far right or even right wing, it is just another, in a long line, attempt to stifle debate, stifle opposition.

Nah it was right-wing alright, the anniversary of the invasion of Poland and all that. Don't be silly.

troyzer · 03-09-2018 10:05AM

Muslim countries may force women to wear head coverings. We don't. And that's why we're better.

Danzy · 03-09-2018 10:09AM

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Nah it was right-wing alright, the anniversary of the invasion of Poland and all that. Don't be silly.

No doubt there were some Nazis there but the very majority were ordinary German working class people who have just had enough.

Forgot about that, isn't it ironic that on that day, that some German Nazis and Communist Antifa types were once again massing on the Polish border.

History rhyming in a small way.

People can only take so much and they came together in Chemnitz to stand up for themselves. No doubt the Nazis and the Antifa twats should all have been rounded up, brothers having a spat.

Shenshen · 03-09-2018 10:15AM

Malayalam wrote: »

Perhaps. There are bad people everywhere. Really bad. I worked always with Turkish gastarbeiters for the years I was there, as a cleaner etc., and I saw some really bad stuff as to how they were treated, I can tell you. I just think it might be worth it for the authorities to actually sit down with the people who are protesting and hear what their story is. To avoid the sh!t really hitting the fan.

I'm honestly not enitrely sure if anything useful will come from talking to a group of people who feel that a town where refugees make for just 2.5% of the population needs to be re-germanised. In the country of Saxony, the total pecentage of non-nationals is just 4.4%, yet it's the country with the highest number of right-wing/racially motivated crimes.

I'm all for talking, but given the facts I do wonder what could be achieved.

Shenshen · 03-09-2018 10:17AM

Danzy wrote: »

No doubt there were some Nazis there but the very majority were ordinary German working class people who have just had enough.

Forgot about that, isn't it ironic that on that day, that some German Nazis and Communist Antifa types were once again massing on the Polish border.

History rhyming in a small way.

People can only take so much and they came together in Chemnitz to stand up for themselves. No doubt the Nazis and the Antifa twats should all have been rounded up, brothers having a spat.

If you can't "take it" that out of every 100 people you'd meet in the street, 2 have not been born in the same place as you and you feel that it's therefore ok to hound the few you do find through the streets in fear of their lives, I'm not really sure what to say to you.

Shenshen · 03-09-2018 10:18AM

troyzer wrote: »

Muslim countries may force women to hear head coverings. We don't. And that's why we're better.

This. We don't force people to either cover or uncover their heads, we leave the choice to them. That's why I choose to live here.

Grayson · 03-09-2018 10:19AM

Malayalam wrote: »

Very difficult to exactly understand what is happening in Chemnitz. Frightening actually to watch videos of it, not just because of the visceral anger of the protestors but also because of the uber-militarised police personnel and vehicles.
Also almost every media outlet describes it without question as ''far right'' protests - looking at the crowds it does seem there are some who might loosely fall into what one imagines the far right looks like (this ground is so tricky!), but after the camera moves from the obviously click-baity burly lads, there also looks like many older people, many regular townies.
Of the almost 10,000 who marched to demonstrate after Daniel Hillig's stabbing recently, there cannot surely be a majority of that crowd that is far right? Or even a significant number? So, why not say the townspeople also marched? And then the government might have to enter into discussions with these people to hear their side of the story. Because even if we might like to look on appalled at what we are told are German ''right wingers'' or whatever, something is rotten there...and needs to be addressed.

It's horrible actually. Lived in Germany for several years, and the protests were always groovy and peaceful in that time.

This tube is in German, but essentially these are for the most part ordinary folk. Ordinary but very angry people. Angry people with unpopular, uncomfortable views. They insist they are not radical right. Or ''Nazis''. Why are they repeatedly being deemed such by media?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiUQMWMjDog

That's an unsafe assumption. Remember that the far right actually poll very high there. Into the double digits. If it was broad selection of people then you can assume that probably about 20% were. However because it's a demonstration against migrants you can say that people who are not anti-migrant weren't there. So the proportion would be even higher.

Also, I don't know about you but I wouldn't be in a march with a load of people throwing out nazi salutes. I would have turned around and gone home as soon as i saw them there. Anyone who marches with neo-nazi's is a sympathiser at best.

Danzy · 03-09-2018 10:27AM

Malayalam wrote: »

Very difficult to exactly understand what is happening in Chemnitz. Frightening actually to watch videos of it, not just because of the visceral anger of the protestors but also because of the uber-militarised police personnel and vehicles.
Also almost every media outlet describes it without question as ''far right'' protests - looking at the crowds it does seem there are some who might loosely fall into what one imagines the far right looks like (this ground is so tricky!), but after the camera moves from the obviously click-baity burly lads, there also looks like many older people, many regular townies.
Of the almost 10,000 who marched to demonstrate after Daniel Hillig's stabbing recently, there cannot surely be a majority of that crowd that is far right? Or even a significant number? So, why not say the townspeople also marched? And then the government might have to enter into discussions with these people to hear their side of the story. Because even if we might like to look on appalled at what we are told are German ''right wingers'' or whatever, something is rotten there...and needs to be addressed.

It's horrible actually. Lived in Germany for several years, and the protests were always groovy and peaceful in that time.

This tube is in German, but essentially these are for the most part ordinary folk. Ordinary but very angry people. Angry people with unpopular, uncomfortable views. They insist they are not radical right. Or ''Nazis''. Why are they repeatedly being deemed such by media?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiUQMWMjDog

They are going against the opinions that the establishment think they should have, the modern left activists are largely the children of the establishment so they also are against these heretics and sinners.

The worst thing one can be called in Germany is a Nazi, so they use that.

Ironically the protesters in East Germany who called out the GDR in the 80s were also labelled Nazis for daring to go against the consensus of their then ruling class.

It is a go too phrase of the modern era to call people, far right, Nazis, Fascists etc and often over the most innocuous views.

Silencing people, berating them from the alter, forcing conformity of thought, did not work for the Church the last fifty years, the modern Left are foolish to resurrect that dead end approach.

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 10:28AM

Grayson wrote: »

That's an unsafe assumption. Remember that the far right actually poll very high there. Into the double digits. If it was broad selection of people then you can assume that probably about 20% were. However because it's a demonstration against migrants you can say that people who are not anti-migrant weren't there. So the proportion would be even higher.

Also, I don't know about you but I wouldn't be in a march with a load of people throwing out nazi salutes. I would have turned around and gone home as soon as i saw them there. Anyone who marches with neo-nazi's is a sympathiser at best.

I take your points, I didn't know they poll so high there. Regardless, ignoring the people massed in those videos (I watched quite a few just to try guage their demographic), however horrible a large percent of them might be, is not going to be a good idea long term. Imagine if that many people were marching somewhere with a comparable population here, like in Cork. I think we would think/know we had some kind of a serious problem going on. Whatever has happened there, it's fairly serious, it looks like to me anyways.

Cabaal · 03-09-2018 10:31AM

For the people looking to ban Hijabs, so you also want to ban old women going to mass that cover their heads? it's basically the same thing

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 10:35AM

Cabaal wrote: »

For the people looking to ban Hijabs, so you also want to ban old women going to mass that cover their heads? it's basically the same thing

People commenting here have constantly differentiated between Hijab and full face veil. They are not of the same order at all.

03-09-2018 10:36AM

Malayalam wrote: »

I take your points, I didn't know they poll so high there. Regardless, ignoring the people massed in those videos (I watched quite a few just to try guage their demographic), however horrible a large percent of them might be, is not going to be a good idea long term. Imagine if that many people were marching somewhere with a comparable population here, like in Cork. I think we would think/know we had some kind of a serious problem going on. Whatever has happened there, it's fairly serious, it looks like to me anyways.

It's guilt by association. You see it with any political march. If there are extremists in any crowd, then the whole march is tarnished as being sympathetic to the extremists. You only really see it happening with the far right though.

The problem though is that these kind of marches do nothing to help the anti-immigration crowd. I'm not talking about the hardliner anti-immigration, but the average person who has concerns about immigration. The far right are far worse an influence, and everyone with a iota of common sense steers clear of them. It is a genuine pity that such a march behaved in this manner, and allowed the far right to take such a prominent position.

As for being serious... it is... and we're going to see more of these marches in Germany or mainland Europe. Hopefully, they can push out the far-right though, and keep the purpose of the marches clean.

dennispenn · 03-09-2018 10:40AM

Cabaal wrote: »

For the people looking to ban Hijabs, so you also want to ban old women going to mass that cover their heads? it's basically the same thing

You are under the impression,and you are not alone,that the hijab is a religious garment, it's not.

The elderly woman wearing a headscarf going to mass does so as a fashion accessory.

Danzy · 03-09-2018 10:41AM

Many of those protesting, the 1000 AntiFa crowd had hammer and sickle flags, the symbol of Nazism's older and more murderous brother and one time military ally.

You'd have been in bed that day, no matter what your opinion was ;0.

The majority of the people there were peaceful working class Germans who have had enough.

You will always have Antifa/NeoNazi types but they were in the minority and not representative of wider views and especially of a Working Class town like Chemnitz.

Spolit kids looking for the thrill of a street fight.

03-09-2018 10:45AM

Cabaal wrote: »

For the people looking to ban Hijabs, so you also want to ban old women going to mass that cover their heads? it's basically the same thing

Except it isn't. The comparisons with Catholicism don't match up very well. Islam is a religion with a firm connection with both social and political areas. Catholicism in Europe is dying away from having any real influence in both areas. The Hijab reinforces the identity of being separate from western society in rather strong tones, since there is no natural foundation of Islam in Europe. Whereas Catholicism does have such a foundation, and the practices of Catholicism are part of the social fabric and aren't encouraging people to remain separate.

And yes, TBH, I would ban any public showing of a garment that has strong religious connections. What they do in Church/Mosque is appropriate. Wearing these things beyond the Church/Mosque isn't.

The fact of the matter is that the Hijabs and Burqas represent a religious and cultural group that is not integrating with European society. Both Hijabs and Burqas help to keep Muslims from integrating because it reinforces the belief that they are vastly different both to Muslims (by reinforcing the differences) and to the people who encounter them.

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 10:48AM

Danzy wrote: »

Many of those protesting, the 1000 AntiFa crowd had hammer and sickle flags, the symbol of Nazism's older and more murderous brother and one time military ally.

You'd have been in bed that day, no matter what your opinion was ;0.

The majority of the people there were peaceful working class Germans who have had enough.

You will always have Antifa/NeoNazi types but they were in the minority and not representative of wider views and especially of a Working Class town like Chemnitz.

Spolit kids looking for the thrill of a street fight.

It seems like if other posters are correct that there may be a particular leaning to the right in those areas, so perhaps it cannot be dismissed. Plus really I don't know the debate advantage of saying ''well, the other side (lefties) were fascists too, etc.'', or ''they can be violent pr1cks too etc''....it just makes for an argument loop that drowns out a broader picture. Which is that something is wrong deep down in places like that. It might not be what one side or other hopes for, it might be too complex to work out easily. I saw a horrible short video recently - though I have no idea how to find it again - of a demo in the UK where two groups of lads met each other on an ordinary English high street, on one side white lads and on the other Muslim lads, and it scared the shyte out of me to be honest to see the absolute hatred on both sides.

Shenshen · 03-09-2018 10:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And yes, TBH, I would ban any public showing of a garment that has strong religious connections. What they do in Church/Mosque is appropriate. Wearing these things beyond the Church/Mosque isn't.

Kippas? Dastars? Habits? All of these, too?

Cabaal · 03-09-2018 10:49AM

Malayalam wrote: »

People commenting here have constantly differentiated between Hijab and full face veil. They are not of the same order at all.

Which is why I said

For the people looking to ban Hijabs

Do keep up

Cabaal · 03-09-2018 10:50AM

dennispenn wrote: »

You are under the impression,and you are not alone,that the hijab is a religious garment, it's not.

The elderly woman wearing a headscarf going to mass does so as a fashion accessory.

Used to be a catholic tradition to cover your head in church if you were a women,
Many older women that attend mass still believe this

So, do you want to ban these women from wearing them or is it just muslims?

03-09-2018 10:51AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Kippas? Dastars? Habits? All of these, too?

Yes.

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 10:52AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Except it isn't. The comparisons with Catholicism don't match up very well. Islam is a religion with a firm connection with both social and political areas. Catholicism in Europe is dying away from having any real influence in both areas. The Hijab reinforces the identity of being separate from western society in rather strong tones, since there is no natural foundation of Islam in Europe. Whereas Catholicism does have such a foundation, and the practices of Catholicism are part of the social fabric and aren't encouraging people to remain separate.

And yes, TBH, I would ban any public showing of a garment that has strong religious connections. What they do in Church/Mosque is appropriate. Wearing these things beyond the Church/Mosque isn't.

The fact of the matter is that the Hijabs and Burqas represent a religious and cultural group that is not integrating with European society. Both Hijabs and Burqas help to keep Muslims from integrating because it reinforces the belief that they are vastly different both to Muslims (by reinforcing the differences) and to the people who encounter them.

I don't know, personally I can't see a problem with a Hijab, they can be very beautiful in fact and they show the whole face so there is in essence most of the whole person's expression and body language there. The person is recognisable and communicating. Plus on bad hair days I'd love to know how to wind one meself!

Odhinn · 03-09-2018 10:52AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Except it isn't. The comparisons with Catholicism don't match up very well. Islam is a religion (.............) encounter them.

Attempts to ban it only give it a certain cache and are counterproductive.

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 10:53AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Which is why I said

Do keep up

Haha

I'll try, sorry, Monday.

Shenshen · 03-09-2018 10:53AM

Malayalam wrote: »

It seems like if other posters are correct that there may be a particular leaning to the right in those areas, so perhaps it cannot be dismissed. Plus really I don't know the debate advantage of saying ''well, the other side (lefties) were fascists too, etc.'', or ''they can be violent pr1cks too etc''....it just makes for an argument loop that drowns out a broader picture. Which is that something is wrong deep down in places like that. It might not be what one side or other hopes for, it might be too complex to work out easily. I saw a horrible short video recently - though I have no idea how to find it again - of a demo in the UK where two groups of lads met each other on an ordinary English high street, on one side white lads and on the other Muslim lads, and it scared the shyte out of me to be honest to see the absolute hatred on both sides.

I studied in Leipzig in the mid-90s. You'd have situations not too dissimilar to this on a very regular basis, particularly in an area called Connewitz. You'd have a strong presence of both left-wing extremists and right-wing extremists there, and they're get into street fights near enough every other week. And not just fisticuffs, they'd be digging up cobblestones to hurl at each other, throw Molotov cocktails, burn out cars and shops and I seem to recall de-railed a tram once by partially digging up the tracks.

It may be understandable that I despise both fractions as a result of this, but it's also left me with the impression that, whatever it is that's wrong in East Germany, and in particular in Saxony, has nothing to do with immigration. You remove the migrants, they start killing each other. It's like there is a really deep-seated problem, that finds foreingers a handy release-valve.

Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

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