Danzy wrote: » The Working Class are rising up in Chemnitz, no longer willing to be stabbed, raped and robbed so that their self perceived betters in the modern Left and establishment can indulge mad flights of fancy. By pretending that these people are far right or even right wing, it is just another, in a long line, attempt to stifle debate, stifle opposition.
Shenshen wrote: » And at the same time, just shy of 20.000 people demonstrated in Berlin and Hamburg to make the cities "safe havens" for refugees coming across the mediterranean. Only they did so peacefully, so the media don't care. To make the news, you have to apparently behave like the guys in Chemnitz, chase people through the streets, threaten and beat up bystanders, get into fights with the police and if you can cause some significant damages to private property.
Malayalam wrote: » Very difficult to exactly understand what is happening in Chemnitz. Frightening actually to watch videos of it, not just because of the visceral anger of the protestors but also because of the uber-militarised police personnel and vehicles. Also almost every media outlet describes it without question as ''far right'' protests - looking at the crowds it does seem there are some who might loosely fall into what one imagines the far right looks like (this ground is so tricky!), but after the camera moves from the obviously click-baity burly lads, there also looks like many older people, many regular townies. Of the almost 10,000 who marched to demonstrate after Daniel Hillig's stabbing recently, there cannot surely be a majority of that crowd that is far right? Or even a significant number? So, why not say the townspeople also marched? And then the government might have to enter into discussions with these people to hear their side of the story. Because even if we might like to look on appalled at what we are told are German ''right wingers'' or whatever, something is rotten there...and needs to be addressed. It's horrible actually. Lived in Germany for several years, and the protests were always groovy and peaceful in that time. This tube is in German, but essentially these are for the most part ordinary folk. Ordinary but very angry people. Angry people with unpopular, uncomfortable views. They insist they are not radical right. Or ''Nazis''. Why are they repeatedly being deemed such by media?
Shenshen wrote: » I grew up in Germany. If you want to find the died-in-the-wool right wing extremists, you need to look at people over 60. A sizeable chunk of them would put the Ku Klux Klan to shame. And I'm old enough to remember the early 1990s, when "regular townsfolk" stood around and were clapping as right-wingers burned down an apartment block housing Vietnamese people - with people still inside. When firefighters arrived, those upstanding folks tried all they could to block their way.
Giraffe Box wrote: » Nah it was right-wing alright, the anniversary of the invasion of Poland and all that. Don't be silly.
Malayalam wrote: » Perhaps. There are bad people everywhere. Really bad. I worked always with Turkish gastarbeiters for the years I was there, as a cleaner etc., and I saw some really bad stuff as to how they were treated, I can tell you. I just think it might be worth it for the authorities to actually sit down with the people who are protesting and hear what their story is. To avoid the sh!t really hitting the fan.
Danzy wrote: » No doubt there were some Nazis there but the very majority were ordinary German working class people who have just had enough. Forgot about that, isn't it ironic that on that day, that some German Nazis and Communist Antifa types were once again massing on the Polish border. History rhyming in a small way. People can only take so much and they came together in Chemnitz to stand up for themselves. No doubt the Nazis and the Antifa twats should all have been rounded up, brothers having a spat.
troyzer wrote: » Muslim countries may force women to hear head coverings. We don't. And that's why we're better.
Malayalam wrote: » Very difficult to exactly understand what is happening in Chemnitz. Frightening actually to watch videos of it, not just because of the visceral anger of the protestors but also because of the uber-militarised police personnel and vehicles. Also almost every media outlet describes it without question as ''far right'' protests - looking at the crowds it does seem there are some who might loosely fall into what one imagines the far right looks like (this ground is so tricky!), but after the camera moves from the obviously click-baity burly lads, there also looks like many older people, many regular townies.Of the almost 10,000 who marched to demonstrate after Daniel Hillig's stabbing recently, there cannot surely be a majority of that crowd that is far right? Or even a significant number? So, why not say the townspeople also marched? And then the government might have to enter into discussions with these people to hear their side of the story. Because even if we might like to look on appalled at what we are told are German ''right wingers'' or whatever, something is rotten there...and needs to be addressed. It's horrible actually. Lived in Germany for several years, and the protests were always groovy and peaceful in that time. This tube is in German, but essentially these are for the most part ordinary folk. Ordinary but very angry people. Angry people with unpopular, uncomfortable views. They insist they are not radical right. Or ''Nazis''. Why are they repeatedly being deemed such by media? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiUQMWMjDog
Malayalam wrote: » Very difficult to exactly understand what is happening in Chemnitz. Frightening actually to watch videos of it, not just because of the visceral anger of the protestors but also because of the uber-militarised police personnel and vehicles. Also almost every media outlet describes it without question as ''far right'' protests - looking at the crowds it does seem there are some who might loosely fall into what one imagines the far right looks like (this ground is so tricky!), but after the camera moves from the obviously click-baity burly lads, there also looks like many older people, many regular townies. Of the almost 10,000 who marched to demonstrate after Daniel Hillig's stabbing recently, there cannot surely be a majority of that crowd that is far right? Or even a significant number? So, why not say the townspeople also marched? And then the government might have to enter into discussions with these people to hear their side of the story. Because even if we might like to look on appalled at what we are told are German ''right wingers'' or whatever, something is rotten there...and needs to be addressed. It's horrible actually. Lived in Germany for several years, and the protests were always groovy and peaceful in that time. This tube is in German, but essentially these are for the most part ordinary folk. Ordinary but very angry people. Angry people with unpopular, uncomfortable views. They insist they are not radical right. Or ''Nazis''. Why are they repeatedly being deemed such by media? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiUQMWMjDog
Grayson wrote: » That's an unsafe assumption. Remember that the far right actually poll very high there. Into the double digits. If it was broad selection of people then you can assume that probably about 20% were. However because it's a demonstration against migrants you can say that people who are not anti-migrant weren't there. So the proportion would be even higher. Also, I don't know about you but I wouldn't be in a march with a load of people throwing out nazi salutes. I would have turned around and gone home as soon as i saw them there. Anyone who marches with neo-nazi's is a sympathiser at best.
Cabaal wrote: » For the people looking to ban Hijabs, so you also want to ban old women going to mass that cover their heads? it's basically the same thing
Malayalam wrote: » I take your points, I didn't know they poll so high there. Regardless, ignoring the people massed in those videos (I watched quite a few just to try guage their demographic), however horrible a large percent of them might be, is not going to be a good idea long term. Imagine if that many people were marching somewhere with a comparable population here, like in Cork. I think we would think/know we had some kind of a serious problem going on. Whatever has happened there, it's fairly serious, it looks like to me anyways.
Danzy wrote: » Many of those protesting, the 1000 AntiFa crowd had hammer and sickle flags, the symbol of Nazism's older and more murderous brother and one time military ally. You'd have been in bed that day, no matter what your opinion was ;0. The majority of the people there were peaceful working class Germans who have had enough. You will always have Antifa/NeoNazi types but they were in the minority and not representative of wider views and especially of a Working Class town like Chemnitz. Spolit kids looking for the thrill of a street fight.
Deleted User wrote: » And yes, TBH, I would ban any public showing of a garment that has strong religious connections. What they do in Church/Mosque is appropriate. Wearing these things beyond the Church/Mosque isn't.
Malayalam wrote: » People commenting here have constantly differentiated between Hijab and full face veil. They are not of the same order at all.
For the people looking to ban Hijabs
dennispenn wrote: » You are under the impression,and you are not alone,that the hijab is a religious garment, it's not. The elderly woman wearing a headscarf going to mass does so as a fashion accessory.
Shenshen wrote: » Kippas? Dastars? Habits? All of these, too?
Deleted User wrote: » Except it isn't. The comparisons with Catholicism don't match up very well. Islam is a religion with a firm connection with both social and political areas. Catholicism in Europe is dying away from having any real influence in both areas. The Hijab reinforces the identity of being separate from western society in rather strong tones, since there is no natural foundation of Islam in Europe. Whereas Catholicism does have such a foundation, and the practices of Catholicism are part of the social fabric and aren't encouraging people to remain separate. And yes, TBH, I would ban any public showing of a garment that has strong religious connections. What they do in Church/Mosque is appropriate. Wearing these things beyond the Church/Mosque isn't. The fact of the matter is that the Hijabs and Burqas represent a religious and cultural group that is not integrating with European society. Both Hijabs and Burqas help to keep Muslims from integrating because it reinforces the belief that they are vastly different both to Muslims (by reinforcing the differences) and to the people who encounter them.
Deleted User wrote: » Except it isn't. The comparisons with Catholicism don't match up very well. Islam is a religion (.............) encounter them.
Cabaal wrote: » Which is why I said Do keep up
Malayalam wrote: » It seems like if other posters are correct that there may be a particular leaning to the right in those areas, so perhaps it cannot be dismissed. Plus really I don't know the debate advantage of saying ''well, the other side (lefties) were fascists too, etc.'', or ''they can be violent pr1cks too etc''....it just makes for an argument loop that drowns out a broader picture. Which is that something is wrong deep down in places like that. It might not be what one side or other hopes for, it might be too complex to work out easily. I saw a horrible short video recently - though I have no idea how to find it again - of a demo in the UK where two groups of lads met each other on an ordinary English high street, on one side white lads and on the other Muslim lads, and it scared the shyte out of me to be honest to see the absolute hatred on both sides.
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