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The worrying rise of TERFism in the UK (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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    #32
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    P_1 wrote:
    Would it be fair to say that there are extremes on both sides that are causing normal trans people harm in the crossfire? Is there any chance of the middle ground telling both extremes to cop on and maybe just maybe trans people will get the rights that they deserve and have deserved for a long bloody time or have we descended too far into the rabbit hole?

    I think we have to be the ones shouting the loudest. As I said, I tried to read a lot when that conversation happened; I'm someone that's in the community, I know how to navigate community spaces, I know how to spot established rhetoric and still most of the reading I came across was from two extreme camps.

    I think there's plenty of good resources available, but it's pretty useless unless they're readily and easily available to those searching for answers. I've been trying to make sure to comment articles I retweet on Twitter and stuff with relevant wording and pushing it to spaces I wouldn't have before (my Twitter is very gay, my Facebook is not, as an example but I share across platforms).

    One other thing I noticed when I would come across those TERF forums was a lot of them claimed to be straight women 'concerned' for their gay sisters. It's BS obviously, their concern is just prettied up transphobia, but it just showed me that sharing across queer spaces isn't enough.

    Gay or straight or cis or trans, it feels like young vulnerable people with questions are being radicalized into certain ideologies that are equal and direct opposites, ie, well if those people are saying THIS I'm going to say THAT as if THAT is better just because it's the opposite. Extreme example, but kill all trans people vs kill all cis people. One is not a reasonable reaction to the other.

    We have to elevate the voices that are staying in the universe of sane.


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    #33
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    That's really ****ty and awful.

    It's all a bit weird really to have so many people fixated on gentials. What ones do you have, what ones to you not like, what ones would you allow smush up into yours...

    IMO, it's because no matter where they lean on the political spectrum, the US is obsessed with sex.


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    #34
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    I saw the cotton ceiling mentioned earlier, I think this is a good example of where things have gone off the rails.

    Before the term, I believe there was a general discussion about implicit bias and people who didn't want to date a transgender person. I saw some trans activists ask cis people to reflect on why they might feel that way, was it a bias they could overcome etc. This is a good reflective exercise for anyone to do, and doesn't expect or ask anything but your own willingness to examine yourself. Honestly I don't believe this conversation should ever have been broken down to genitals or not, I don't believe there's much of a wider societal pressure on whether you like penises or vaginas. And no one owes anyone an answer into which category they fall.

    What some (few but loud) extremists now say is 'you're bigoted unless you don't want to sleep with me'. They have the cotton ceiling term, which seems extremely misguided at best seeing as the metaphor is 'breaking through' and the ceiling is underwear. Even if it's more nuanced than that, TERFs are going to run away with that terminology.

    You Google the term as someone might who's trying to learn and it's all TERF stuff or articles that say labels should be dropped and people just say 'I like vaginas and/or dicks'. Neither of those commentaries are helpful. Erasing someone else's identity isn't the way to prop up your own. This goes for lesbians who claim they wouldn't date a transwomen because they 'don't like men' too.

    It's all hindering and making volatile a discussion that could have opened minds.


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    #35
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    If the reason you don't fancy any transwomen is because you don't view transwomen as women FULL STOP then yeah, your assertion is transphobic. Of course it is. Nobody should be forced into sexual activity with someone they are not attracted to (or anyone, obviously) and I just can't see these assertions that women are being guilted into being attracted as having real life merit. Being told your transphobic beliefs are transphobic isn't bullying.


    You can’t see the assertion that there is an attempt being made by a minority of transgender advocates to coerce and humiliate women into including individuals they have no wish to include in their sexual spaces as having any real life merit, but you’ll still maintain they’re transphobic if they refuse. That’s coercion - knowing that someone has no wish to regard other people as potential sexual partners, and condemning them as transphobic on that basis. It’s the equivalent of me walking up to a lesbian in a bar and suggesting that she doesn’t know what she’s missing and perhaps she should be more open minded and accept me as a potential sexual partner. It would be like someone suggesting I’m homophobic because I do not consider men potential sexual partners.

    Obviously I personally am not going to care for their opinion if that’s the way they see it, that’s really not my problem. On that basis I can see why those women who object to including transgender persons as potential sexual partners would feel that their concerns are no longer represented in the mainstream LGBT community.

    P_1 wrote: »
    The TL:DR version can be essentially boiled down to.

    If you're straight that's fine
    If you're gay that's also fine
    If you're bi guess what that's fine too
    If you're pan, also fine
    If you're poly, fire ahead
    If you're ace, if you'll forgive the pun, that's ace

    So long as all parties consent and it's safe and sane then frankly where is the bloody issue.


    The issue is that some people take issue with the fact that other people do not consent to being coerced into submitting themselves to something which is fundamentally objectionable to them.


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    #36
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You can’t see the assertion that there is an attempt being made by a minority of transgender advocates to coerce and humiliate women into including individuals they have no wish to include in their sexual spaces as having any real life merit, but you’ll still maintain they’re transphobic if they refuse. That’s coercion - knowing that someone has no wish to regard other people as potential sexual partners, and condemning them as transphobic on that basis. It’s the equivalent of me walking up to a lesbian in a bar and suggesting that she doesn’t know what she’s missing and perhaps she should be more open minded and accept me as a potential sexual partner. It would be like someone suggesting I’m homophobic because I do not consider men potential sexual partners.

    Obviously I personally am not going to care for their opinion if that’s the way they see it, that’s really not my problem. On that basis I can see why those women who object to including transgender persons as potential sexual partners would feel that their concerns are no longer represented in the mainstream LGBT community.





    The issue is that some people take issue with the fact that other people do not consent to being coerced into submitting themselves to something which is fundamentally objectionable to them.

    What? So people are taking issue with what other people do when it has no material effect on them whatsoever?

    I'm sorry but how does that make any sense? Its skin to suggesting that somebody who supports Man Utd would have a valid objection to their neighbour supporting Man City.


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    #37
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    P_1 wrote: »
    What? So people are taking issue with what other people do when it has no material effect on them whatsoever?

    I'm sorry but how does that make any sense? Its skin to suggesting that somebody who supports Man Utd would have a valid objection to their neighbour supporting Man City.

    It's quite straightforward. Lesbians are being labelled by some transactivists as transphobic for not wanting to date a transwoman and being wary about allowing transwomen free reign in safe spaces they have created for themselves.
    Some of these lesbians have had terrible experiences of men abusing them throughout their lives.


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    #38
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    P_1 wrote: »
    What? So people are taking issue with what other people do when it has no material effect on them whatsoever?

    I'm sorry but how does that make any sense? Its skin to suggesting that somebody who supports Man Utd would have a valid objection to their neighbour supporting Man City.


    The football analogy is lost on me P, no clue about football :o

    Their point is that another section of the community’s political aims is in direct conflict with their political aims. Both political positions are rooted in feminist theories and intersect with lesbian and transgender politics. That’s why there is unlikely to be any compromise or agreement between both competing political positions. It’s much less about individuals and their genitalia, and more about a question of conflicting political aims and ideologies regarding representation within the mainstream LGBT community and indeed their representation and position in wider society.


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    #39
    Smegging hell
    Registered Users Posts: 460 ✭✭Smegging hell


    P_1 wrote: »
    Something that I haven't seen discussed here yet. What are people's opinions on this.

    Sadly it seems Graham Linehan has gone fully to bat on the side of those who disgraced themselves at London Pride.

    A bit of digging seems to indicate that this movement is being funded by the same types that fund Iona and the likes.

    To me this is dangerous and quite worrying seeing some of the stunts are being pulled. Is it a little englander thing a la Brexit or is it part of a wider schism within the LGBTQ+ movement?

    IIRC this line of thinking dates back to second wave feminism in the 70s, see Janice Raymond's 'The Transsexual Empire'.

    It seems quite prominent in British feminism but has never been influential in Ireland, AFAIK. There are certainly Irish people who advocate it but they have little influence within feminist campaigns, groups like the Abortion Rights Campaign have always been trans-inclusive and have been criticised heavily by some UK feminists online as a consequence.

    Linehan seems obsessed. Tweets about little else these days.


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    #40
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    splinter65 wrote: »
    It's quite straightforward. Lesbians are being labelled by some transactivists as transphobic for not wanting to date a transwoman and being wary about allowing transwomen free reign in safe spaces they have created for themselves.
    Some of these lesbians have had terrible experiences of men abusing them throughout their lives.

    It does still strike me as odd. So we have a few oddballs on the side of trans people making a ludicrous claim on the one hand and we then have some lesbians who have had valid negative experiences painting all trans people with the one brush on the other. Caught in the crossfire are normal decent trans people.

    I must point out that we are talking about trans people in the abstract here which is wrong. I'm sure many of us have friends who are going through this or have gone through this. I dont know about others but the thought of my friends being predatory in any way is so absurd its laughable.

    I mean take the bathroom argument. Most normal people use bathrooms for a number 1 or number 2. Or changing facilities for that matter. Now eyebrows would certainly be raised if one were to go for a 1 or 2 in one of those but most normal people simply use them to get changed in.

    Trans people are normal people who have to go through an extraordinary struggle. Seeing people who you would expect to be their allies turn against with so much vitriol is somewhat heartbreaking.


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    #41
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The football analogy is lost on me P, no clue about football :o

    Their point is that another section of the community’s political aims is in direct conflict with their political aims. Both political positions are rooted in feminist theories and intersect with lesbian and transgender politics. That’s why there is unlikely to be any compromise or agreement between both competing political positions. It’s much less about individuals and their genitalia, and more about a question of conflicting political aims and ideologies regarding representation within the mainstream LGBT community and indeed their representation and position in wider society.

    You're not missing much not knowing about football ;)

    Ah ideology, such a force for good at times and a source of strife at other times. I suppose we should be glad it hasn't taken hold here. I wonder if it's down to us generally being sound as people or if it's down to the more relaxed pace of life we'd have here over say the likes of London. Or even if it's down to our smaller population. One for the sociologists to mull over I guess.


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    #42
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    I'm also not sure that if one cannot force oneself to believe that a trans person is really and truly their preferred gender in every sense of the word that this constitutes a "phobia". It is a social and intellectual leap that maybe nothing to do with fear or hatred.


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    #43
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You can’t see the assertion that there is an attempt being made by a minority of transgender advocates to coerce and humiliate women into including individuals they have no wish to include in their sexual spaces as having any real life merit, but you’ll still maintain they’re transphobic if they refuse. That’s coercion - knowing that someone has no wish to regard other people as potential sexual partners, and condemning them as transphobic on that basis.

    You're really twisting my words. I specifically said that if the only reason you blankly refuse to see trasnwomen as viable sexual/romantic partners because you see them as actually being men, then yeah - that's transphobic. I don't see how it's not, frankly. But calling someone out on their transphobic ideas isn't coercion, for heavens sake.

    I could equally say "You can't see that there is an attempt being made by a minority of radical lesbian feminists to make people believe that transwomen are men".

    it's also not all about sexual spaces. There are lots of TERFs that don't want transwomen in ladies bathrooms, womens bars, womens networking events... it's insidious.


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    #44
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    You're really twisting my words. I specifically said that if the only reason you blankly refuse to see trasnwomen as viable sexual/romantic partners because you see them as actually being men, then yeah - that's transphobic. I don't see how it's not, frankly. But calling someone out on their transphobic ideas isn't coercion, for heavens sake.

    I could equally say "You can't see that there is an attempt being made by a minority of radical lesbian feminists to make people believe that transwomen are men".

    it's also not all about sexual spaces. There are lots of TERFs that don't want transwomen in ladies bathrooms, womens bars, womens networking events... it's insidious.


    I’m not twisting your words. I agree with you, it’s the definition of transphobia. I’m just not sure it actually matters to those people who disagree with your opinion is all. That’s exactly why I used the examples of me suggesting to a lesbian that if only she were more open minded she would consider me as a potential sexual partner. That’s about as likely to fly as someone suggesting I’m homophobic because I do not consider men as potential sexual partners. They’re absolutely correct of course. It’s just not going to make any difference though because in just the same way I wouldn’t expect a lesbian should take my assertion seriously, I’m not going to take the suggestion that I’m homophobic seriously either. It’s wishful thinking to assume that strategy would actually work on someone over the age of 12 tbh.

    I’d also agree with you that it’s not just about sexual spaces, but it’s about women’s spaces, and who is or indeed isn’t or should or shouldn’t be entitled to enter that space. I just don’t get hung up on the bathrooms issue though as neither I nor any woman I’ve ever known as made an issue of it. I just use whichever is the first door I come to, never had any problems, although I understand that for some women they would absolutely have an issue with me entering a space which has been designated for women only. I don’t consider their point of view insidious as I can understand where they’re coming from and why they object to the presence of people they feel are not entitled to enter their space.


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    #45
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I’m not twisting your words. I agree with you, it’s the definition of transphobia. I’m just not sure it actually matters to those people who disagree with your opinion is all.

    Well that doesn't mean stop pushing people to reflect on their opinions. If I didn't have my wife to push me about my biphobia when we first got together I'd still have awful opinions, probably.

    QUOTE=One eyed Jack;107935699]I just don’t get hung up on the bathrooms issue though as neither I nor any woman I’ve ever known as made an issue of it. I just use whichever is the first door I come to, never had any problems, although I understand that for some women they would absolutely have an issue with me entering a space which has been designated for women only. I don’t consider their point of view insidious as I can understand where they’re coming from and why they object to the presence of people they feel are not entitled to enter their space.[/QUOTE]

    The bathroom and changing room issue is a thorny one for me because I have been asked to leave ladies bathrooms and dressing rooms, and gotten dogs abuse because some women assume I'm a guy. Trust me, a lot of women will freak out about someone they think shouldn't be somewhere being there. Even if literally all would happen even if I was a guy would be that they'd wash their hand next to me at a sink.


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    #46
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    Well that doesn't mean stop pushing people to reflect on their opinions. If I didn't have my wife to push me about my biphobia when we first got together I'd still have awful opinions, probably.


    I think though you can appreciate the difference between your wife pushing you to question your biphobia, and an ideology which suggests that you should question your whole identity as a lesbian, implying that you’re somehow missing out because you’re not sexually attracted to people you don’t find sexually attractive. I’ve experienced being told I should be more open minded by people who have wanted to have sex with me and they have refused to accept that it’s just not something I’m into. It came across as they considered their sexuality was somehow worthy of greater consideration than my absolute refusal to consider them as potential sexual partners. That person is entitled to think I’m a homophobic bigot, and if I were already in a position where I felt that my sexual identity was being ignored or being deigned as a less than legitimate sexual identity, then I know I wouldn’t take too kindly to an ideology which ignores my sexual identity and makes that assertion either. Personally, having someone question their sexuality and hope they come to a conclusion which is to my advantage, is not something I’d do as I find it disrespectful to that person. I accept that they’re just not into it, and that’s fine. The issue is mine to deal with, not theirs.

    The bathroom and changing room issue is a thorny one for me because I have been asked to leave ladies bathrooms and dressing rooms, and gotten dogs abuse because some women assume I'm a guy. Trust me, a lot of women will freak out about someone they think shouldn't be somewhere being there. Even if literally all would happen even if I was a guy would be that they'd wash their hand next to me at a sink.


    I can imagine that, and undoubtedly it’s unfortunate when it happens. On the other hand I can also appreciate exactly why women are uncomfortable with the idea that they must now share a space with people who they didn’t previously have to share a space with. I can appreciate that they are entitled to feel safe and comfortable and having worked with women who have experienced horrific ordeals at the hands of men, I’m acutely conscious of the fact that they as individuals may consider my presence in their space a threat to their safety. It’s not an entirely irrational or unfounded fear as I know it’s based upon their experiences, but being aware of that I consider their feelings more important than my ego. I don’t take it personally as I know it’s not coming from a place where they object to me personally. I know it takes time for them to get to a point where they don’t consider me a threat to their safety. I’m not going to push them as that would simply be counterproductive. I know some women are actually more comfortable opening up to me because I’m a man, but I don’t assume that every woman feels that way, and certainly I’m not going to condemn women who don’t, or suggest that their “hang-ups” about men are irrelevant or less important than my ‘entitlement’ to be regarded as someone who isn’t a threat to their safety. Immediately I am understandably perceived as a threat to their safety if they perceive that I consider myself more important than their right to feel safe in a space in which they have an expectation of being able to feel safe. It’s just basic consideration for other people on my part and acknowledging the fact that they may not feel the same way I do is all, and being ok with that. I understand that some people find that unacceptable, but at the same time I don’t support anyone trying to force other people to accept them. I find that rather than generating acceptance, their actions as individuals fuel and foster resentment of people that person claims to represent.


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    #47
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    To be honest I’m frankly getting sick to my back teeth of all this guff about TERFs, cis, non-binary and such. We are really bogging ourselves down into rather pedantic and extremist ideology directly imported from American universities.

    What about LGBT and just leave it at that?

    Also I believe that the LGBT “community” is perhaps more fractured than ever in the West than ever before, as we gain widespread societal acceptance. In fact, I doubt there really was ever a fully cohesive community in a complete sense ever.

    Many gay men and lesbian women hold some very right wing views politically, and many don’t. And transgender people face an uphill battle for societal acceptance that will take decades to fully achieve, if ever.


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    #48
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    P_1 wrote: »
    Jesus that's horrific. Was this in Ireland? Honestly I thought we were better than that

    I'm in Dublin and I was essentially excommunicated for saying similar by all my queer friends. People I've known for years - suddenly I was untouchable because I challenged the idea that lesbians should be encouraged to 'reevaluate' their preferences. It's homophobia, plain and simple. Nobody goes after gay men for only wanting to sleep with other gay men


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    #49
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Adrian Few Medicine wrote: »
    I was told I was scum and 'I should just die already' when I was pressured into answering a question about genital preference that was nobody's business. This was at a gathering for queer women...

    ...

    I worry about the two extreme voices shouting the loudest and vulnerable people, trans or cis, getting caught up in it when I think most people aren't so filled with bile.

    This might come as a shock to many here, but in the trans discussion groups I am in, I would be seen as quite the moderate. For someone to call you scum for not being attracted to a certain type of genitalia is extreme and, in my opinion, wrong. And why someone would be asking those questions in the first place baffles me, to be quite honest. It seems highly inappropriate.

    On the second, point. You are talking about a very marginalised group of people when you talk trans people, and when you give a platform for extremists who want nothing more than to see us stripped of the very few rights our community has been struggling for years to obtain, you run the risk of marginalizing us even further - which will only lead to more extreme views.

    You can't have a civilized discussion with TERFs, as demonstrated so perfectly by Channel 4's most recent Genderquake "debate" - https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/genderquake-channel-4-debate-genderqueer-transgender-caitlin-jenner-munroe-bergdorg-sarah-ditum-a8342771.html - where TERFs basically turned any semblance of a discussion into a schoolyard bullying campaign - which BTW many prominent trans activists in the UK knew would happen and declined the offer of appearing for that very reason.

    And yes, the "debate" was reduced to a slagging match with unhinged cis women screaming insults from the audience, and repeating the word "penis" over and over again. And that is the level of TERFs. And perhaps, one reason why when you reduce a transperson's identity to the genitals they were born with, you might get less than an hospitable reaction.

    Yet, people with transphobic agendas will still try hold-up transpeople (and in particular transwomen) as the aggressors merely for defending themselves n these situations.


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    #50
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    One eyed Jack wrote: »




    This just shows for all your talk about the “LGBT community”, when you boil it down quite frankly it appears your concerns are only for yourself and those people who already agree with you. Of course you’re not interested in hearing the concerns of others within the community who’s interests conflict with your own. Can’t say I blame you, but that still doesn’t give you any right to refer to anyone as trash.

    I called you out as a TERF sympathizer long before this thread. You are so transparently transphobic, it's ridiculous you are still allowed post in here. Quite frankly, posting articles from extreme right wing organisations where pseudoscience is intermingled with "faith" blogs, and which claim transwomen are subjecting cis women to "conversion therapy" and "rape culture" is poisonous in the extreme. And I hope the mods here take a longer look at your actions. Because it's disgusting.

    As for the above statement. It's laughable. Your whole Alex Jones like obsession with transwomen is laughable.


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    #51
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »
    Ok that's frankly bizarre.

    Is there any chance of the middle ground telling both extremes to cop on and maybe just maybe trans people will get the rights that they deserve

    Your query is an oxymoron. You seem to be asking transpeople, yet again, to hear out the other side of the "argument", which is, essentially, you don't exist and you don't deserve rights. Where do you expect the conversation goes from there?

    Well, I'll tell you: If someone is telling me as a transwoman that I should hear a TERF out, I will in no uncertain terms tell them to "**** right off".


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    #52
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    To be honest I’m frankly getting sick to my back teeth of all this guff about TERFs, cis, non-binary and such. We are really bogging ourselves down into rather pedantic and extremist ideology directly imported from American universities.

    What about LGBT and just leave it at that?

    So, essentially: Pull up the drawbridge, I'm safe now?


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    #53
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    splinter65 wrote: »
    It's quite straightforward. Lesbians are being labelled by some transactivists as transphobic for not wanting to date a transwoman and being wary about allowing transwomen free reign in safe spaces they have created for themselves.
    Some of these lesbians have had terrible experiences of men abusing them throughout their lives.

    It's quite straighforward comparing transwomen to men (abusive or not) is transphobic.


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    #54
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    It's quite straighforward comparing transwomen to men (abusive or not) is transphobic.

    ....and telling women,gay or not, that they have no choice but to take the risk of being attacked by a predatory male disguised as a woman is both misogynistic and disgustingly bullying.


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    #55
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    It's quite straighforward comparing transwomen to men (abusive or not) is transphobic.

    I’m quite comfortable with my transphobic label.

    Of course I have no issue whatsoever with trans people but if not wanting to sleep with them makes me phobic then phobic I am.

    Was there another point you wanted to make or is that it ?


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    #56
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    splinter65 wrote: »
    ....and telling women,gay or not, that they have no choice but to take the risk of being attacked by a predatory male disguised as a woman is both misogynistic and disgustingly bullying.

    I honestly have to question this too.

    How many times have women been attacked in public toilets by men, EVER? Like, I honestly think you're more likely to be attacked walking down a street. I have never once heard of any of my friends being attacked or threatened in a toilet or changing room, but I sure as hell have on the street, in their own homes etc.

    I'd also love to know how many times someone has been attacked in a gender neutral toilet? There's lots of them, my entire office building just has "toilets" and, surprise surprise, no-ones been attacked.

    99% of people using toilets just want to go in a pee. That's it.

    If some areshole is going to attack you, he's going to do it regardless, suggesting he's going to think "oh awesome, I can just dress up as a woman, pretend I'm trans, use a ladies bathroom that's probably pretty busy and bobs your uncle. ITS THE PERFERCT CRIME!" is just the height of hysteria tbh. :rolleyes:


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    #57
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    If some areshole is going to attack you, he's going to do it regardless, suggesting he's going to think "oh awesome, I can just dress up as a woman, pretend I'm trans, use a ladies bathroom that's probably pretty busy and bobs your uncle. ITS THE PERFERCT CRIME!" is just the height of hysteria tbh. :rolleyes:

    Attacks are at the extreme end of this..

    The perverts that WILL abuse this will be far more likely to be just making deposits to the **** bank then actually attacking anyone and you'll never ever know so it kinda is the perfect crime..


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    #58
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Attacks are at the extreme end of this..

    The perverts that WILL abuse this will be far more likely to be just making deposits to the **** bank then actually attacking anyone and you'll never ever know so it kinda is the perfect crime..

    but like... changing rooms and toilets have cubicles. So all you actually see is someone fully dressed looking in a mirror or washing their hands. :confused:

    They liteally see way more in the actual pool or on a beach than in a toilet, yet that's where people are so terrified about transmen and women being "in case" they're some pervert taking the trouble to dress up and pretend to be a different gender...


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    #59
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    but like... changing rooms and toilets have cubicles. So all you actually see is someone fully dressed looking in a mirror or washing their hands. :confused:

    They liteally see way more in the actual pool or on a beach than in a toilet, yet that's where people are so terrified about transmen and women being "in case" they're some pervert taking the trouble to dress up and pretend to be a different gender...

    Fair enough..

    Female changing rooms are obviously very different to male changing rooms where we would all walk around starkers and think nothing of it.

    I guess those pervert are going to be a little disappointed..


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    #60
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Has anybody been following the shambolic situation currently unfolding within the UK Green Party?


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    #61
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    P_1 wrote: »
    Has anybody been following the shambolic situation currently unfolding within the UK Green Party?


    Is this what you’re referring to P?


    Aimee Channelor’s statement on her No Fault Suspension from the Green Party of England and Wales.

    I’m aware of it alright, wasn’t following it particularly closely though tbh. I don’t see how it’s relevant here though as it has nothing to do with her being transgender and everything to do with her being yet another example of a corrupt politician.


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