The worrying rise of TERFism in the UK (MOD WARNING IN OP)

P_1 · 28-08-2018 08:26PM #1

Something that I haven't seen discussed here yet. What are people's opinions on this.

Sadly it seems Graham Linehan has gone fully to bat on the side of those who disgraced themselves at London Pride.

A bit of digging seems to indicate that this movement is being funded by the same types that fund Iona and the likes.

To me this is dangerous and quite worrying seeing some of the stunts are being pulled. Is it a little englander thing a la Brexit or is it part of a wider schism within the LGBTQ+ movement?

Mod
Thread reopened following a second review. The thread went very far off topic this morning and a number of off topic posts have been deleted.

To clarify, this thread is about TERFism in the UK. Irrelevant posts this morning included trans regret, reversal surgery and puberty blockers for kids - if the thread goes off track again it will be locked permanently. The thread has already resulted in a vast number of reported posts, 4 separate on thread mod warnings, multiple infractions being handed out and 2 mod reviews so this thread will be under close scrutiny.

All previous mod warnings are still in effect,
1. No personal abuse or trolling
2. No back seat modding or arguing about moderation on thread
3. Report posts you feel are inappropriate
4. STAY ON TOPIC

Finally, to be crystal clear, it is against the forum charter to say or imply that transwomen are not women, or that they are men in disguise. The mods take a very dim view of such posts and we have handed out infractions in this thread for such posts already. Any further posts along these lines will be met with a 3 day ban from the forum. You have been warned.

baby and crumble · 29-08-2018 12:07AM

Tbh TERFs have been around a long long time. The history of the feminist movement is interesting in and of itself.

It’s indicative of a wider fear and disdain of trans folks. I had to cut ties with an Aussie friend of mine becaus she turned into a raging TERF a few years ago. Started telling me that it was “sad” that all the butch women were getting surgery to “mutilate” themselves because the patriarchy was so overwhelming the only way they felt they’d fit in and have power was by “becoming men”.

Suuuuuuuure.

JackTaylorFan · 29-08-2018 01:48AM

Yeah, it's not just an isolated case in the UK. Australia and the US have their fair share of TERFs as well. The links to organisations such as IONA would not surprise me in the least. There's a small but vocal number of them in Ireland too, and I suspect it will grow as the cultural backlash against transpeople continues to gain momentum.

But I don't know what, if any, good a discussion on TERFs here is going to do anyone. I'm not really interested in hearing or arguing the merits of their "concerns" either, because, quite frankly, it's just hate speech and fear-mongering when you boil it down.

Also, Linehan has displayed on numerous occasions, before the events you refer to now, that he is a transphobic piece of **** - including a deeply harmful episode of the IT Crowd. So this is nothing new.

As for schisms within the LGBT+ community. Well, you make it sound like this is the only thing that divides opinion within. LGBT+ is not a cohesive groupthink. Truth is, a lot of people in the community hate other parts of the community or even being associated with it in any way.

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 03:11AM

P_1 wrote: »

Something that I haven't seen discussed here yet. What are people's opinions on this.

Sadly it seems Graham Linehan has gone fully to bat on the side of those who disgraced themselves at London Pride.

I don’t agree that they did disgrace themselves at London Pride to be honest. Some people still regard Pride as a protest rather than a celebration, and lesbian feminists should protest, because they have little to celebrate if they allow themselves to be spoken down to, condemned and patronised by transgender advocates.

To me this is dangerous and quite worrying seeing some of the stunts are being pulled. Is it a little englander thing a la Brexit or is it part of a wider schism within the LGBTQ+ movement?

It’s part of a wider schism within the LGBTQ+ movement, and it’s a schism that’s only going to get wider as each group separately lobbies for social and political representation and recognition, rather than being dismissed by the greater majority who imagine they hold all the power, as ‘little englanders’.

P_1 · 29-08-2018 03:16AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t agree that they did disgrace themselves at London Pride to be honest. Some people still regard Pride as a protest rather than a celebration, and lesbian feminists should protest, because they have little to celebrate if they allow themselves to be spoken down to, condemned and patronised by transgender advocates.

It’s part of a wider schism within the LGBTQ+ movement, and it’s a schism that’s only going to get wider as each group separately lobbies for social and political representation and recognition, rather than being dismissed by the greater majority who imagine they hold all the power, as ‘little englanders’.

I'm sorry but if peoples rights to exist are being challenged and dismissed then you damn well believe I will challenge them and call their actions a disgrace.

Trans people are people. Full stop. Also if you think trans people or their advocates hold all the power then with the greatest of respect, you are delusional

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 03:39AM

P_1 wrote: »

I'm sorry but if peoples rights to exist are being challenged and dismissed then you damn well believe I will challenge them and call their actions a disgrace.

Trans people are people. Full stop. Also if you think trans people or their advocates hold all the power then with the greatest of respect, you are delusional

I don’t think anyone is challenging anyone’s right to exist (undoubtedly that person does exist, clearly, there’s no right necessary to acknowledge that fact), but rather they are challenging among a host of other ideas -

- the right of people who are transgender to identify themselves as women (or indeed as men, as in the example by b&c)

- the right of lesbian women to identify themselves as women, who are only interested in women.

I think it’s more a question of competing rights being in conflict rather than any suggestion of questioning whether someone exists or not. Clearly they do, and I don’t think it’s delusional to acknowledge that transgender advocates absolutely do imagine they hold all the power right now over ‘TERFs’. You can hardly deny that when the organisers of the protest were roundly condemned by some people within the LGBT community for their actions, but there was little or nothing in the way of criticism from the wider feminist community, which was unusual in itself as one would almost have expected they’d be all over that.

Awkward shuffles.

P_1 · 29-08-2018 03:44AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is challenging anyone’s right to exist (undoubtedly that person does exist, clearly, there’s no right necessary to acknowledge that fact), but rather they are challenging among a host of other ideas -

- the right of people who are transgender to identify themselves as women (or indeed as men, as in the example by b&c)

- the right of lesbian women to identify themselves as women, who are only interested in women.

I think it’s more a question of competing rights being in conflict rather than any suggestion of questioning whether someone exists or not. Clearly they do, and I don’t think it’s delusional to acknowledge that transgender advocates absolutely do imagine they hold all the power right now over ‘TERFs’. You can hardly deny that when the organisers of the protest were roundly condemned by some people within the LGBT community for their actions, but there was little or nothing in the way of criticism from the wider feminist community, which was unusual in itself as one would almost have expected they’d be all over that.

Awkward shuffles.

Can both rights not coexist?

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 04:01AM

P_1 wrote: »

Can both rights not coexist?

They could potentially co-exist of course as rights being recognised in a legal sense, but I don’t think anyone would actually be either interested or satisfied with that outcome, and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t be satisfied with it either. There are a number of what I would consider legitimate concerns that feminist lesbian women absolutely have every right to be concerned about that warrant consideration -

Feminists Clash with Transgenders at London Pride Parade

JackTaylorFan · 29-08-2018 05:16AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There are a number of what I would consider legitimate concerns that feminist lesbian women absolutely have every right to be concerned about that warrant consideration -

You seem to be deliberately confusing and conflating all feminist lesbians with TERFs, but okay. Just to be clear, I know many "feminist lesbians women" and they all denounce TERFs as the trash they are. And to be honest, your continued attempts to push TERF agenda on here, and to speak on their behalf is both transparent and laughable.

Edit: And for every ridiculous anti-transgender biased weblink you can find I can find one that says the exact opposite - https://www.them.us/story/lesbians-join-the-fight-against-terfs

JackTaylorFan · 29-08-2018 05:31AM

And I'm just looking into the background of PJ Media where OEJ found that article...

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pj-media/

Yeah, why am I not surprised...

The ratiwiki entry on them is good though https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pajamas_Media

Well, it gave me a laugh

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 06:07AM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

You seem to be deliberately confusing and conflating all feminist lesbians with TERFs, but okay. Just to be clear, I know many "feminist lesbians women" and they all denounce TERFs as the trash they are. And to be honest, your continued attempts to push TERF agenda on here, and to speak on their behalf is both transparent and laughable.

Just indeed to be absolutely crystal clear - did you just use the token “I know a token someone who agrees with my point of view” to support your lack of an argument?

To be even clearer, I have no interest whatsoever in feminism of any description, but you know what it’s like - politics often makes for strange bedfellows, and it’s not as though I’ve ever been in the closet about my politically conservative leanings. It’s just not quite the struggle for me as it was for Caitlyn Jenner to come out as Republican. Her sense of humour doesn’t appear to be your cup of tea though, but I think she’s alright really, as long as she’s not claiming to speak on behalf of anyone else but herself.

Of course I have never claimed to speak on anyone’s behalf but my own, and I think I made that clear earlier when I specifically pointed out that it’s not something I personally would agree with. I would also never refer to anyone as trash either btw, and when referring to women your opinion is a damn good example of the kind of misogynistic rhetoric they shouldn’t have to put up with.

Edit: And for every ridiculous anti-transgender biased weblink you can find I can find one that says the exact opposite - https://www.them.us/story/lesbians-join-the-fight-against-terfs

Well at least that’s a better attempt than your last effort where the author initially attempted to claim Storm DeLarverie was transgender, until it was pointed out to the author in the comments that she sure as hell wasn’t. Then tell me again there’s no attempt to erase lesbian women from having their place in history like it’s not just another example of misogyny and lesbophobia.

JackTaylorFan · 29-08-2018 07:05AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Just indeed to be absolutely crystal clear - did you just use the token “I know a token someone who agrees with my point of view” to support your lack of an argument?

I literally posted a link with cis lesbians denouncing TERF trash, but okay...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To be even clearer, I have no interest whatsoever in feminism of any description

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree on one point: I mean, nothing you said at all could be described as supporting feminism (as defined: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes). TERFs on the other hand? Yes, you pretty much have an unhealthy interest/obsession with their cause.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well at least that’s a better attempt than your last effort where the author initially attempted to claim Storm DeLarverie was transgender, until it was pointed out to the author in the comments that she sure as hell wasn’t. Then tell me again there’s no attempt to erase lesbian women from having their place in history like it’s not just another example of misogyny and lesbophobia.

Nope. No idea. I think you have me confused with someone else, dear. I am sure since attacking transwomen on the internet seems to be your favourite pastime it gets kinda confusing and hard to keep up with whom you are arguing with, but I assure you, this latest callback is completely lost on me; I literally have never even made mention on boards of the person you speak of until right this moment.

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 07:15AM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Nope. No idea. I think you have me confused with someone else, dear. I am sure since attacking transwomen on the internet seems to be your favourite pastime it gets kinda confusing and hard to keep up with whom you are arguing with, but I assure you, this latest callback is completely lost on me; I literally have never even heard of the aforementioned person you speak of until right this moment.

The first link in your own post, not the second one that doesn’t work -

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

https://sites.psu.edu/womeninhistory/2016/10/23/the-unsung-heroines-of-stonewall-marsha-p-johnson-and-sylvia-rivera/

https://mic.com/articles/121256/meet-marsha-p-johnson-and-sylvia-rivera-transgender-stonewall-veterans

How language evolves with time and understanding.

Finally, when a police officer clubbed a butch lesbian named Stormé DeLarverie over the head for saying that her handcuffs were too tight, a violent riot broke out and the crowd exploded. They could no longer stand silently and watch members of their community be assaulted and unjustly imprisoned for their sexuality.

Edit: In the first version of this post, I said that a drag queen was clubbed over the head by the police, sparking the rioting. Thanks for reader Logan for pointing out that it was in fact Stormé DeLarverie who was clubbed for saying her handcuffs were too tight.

And when the author has already suggested that drag queens then would be referred to as transgender today, I would say that was rather convenient if you’re gonna rewrite history to support your own narrative -

Transgender: (adj.) denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

Transvestite: (n.) a person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes traditionally worn by the opposite sex.

Drag Queen: (n.) a man who dresses up in women’s clothes, typically for the purposes of entertainment.

Note: at the time of the Stonewall riots, the gay community did not have the same extensive vocabulary to describe sexuality as we do today. Marsha and Sylvia were transgender women, but primarily referred to themselves as drag queens or transvestites, which have separate meanings today. Transvestite is now considered a derogatory term.

JackTaylorFan · 29-08-2018 07:19AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The first link in your own post, not the second one that doesn’t work -

And when the author has already suggested that drag queens then would be referred to as transgender today, I would say that was rather convenient if you’re gonna rewrite history to support your own narrative -

So let me get this straight: you are now attempting to appropriate things said in a random comment section to me?

Okay...

JackTaylorFan · 29-08-2018 07:25AM

Finally, when a police officer clubbed a butch lesbian named Stormé DeLarverie over the head for saying that her handcuffs were too tight, a violent riot broke out and the crowd exploded. They could no longer stand silently and watch members of their community be assaulted and unjustly imprisoned for their sexuality.

Edit: In the first version of this post, I said that a drag queen was clubbed over the head by the police, sparking the rioting. Thanks for reader Logan for pointing out that it was in fact Stormé DeLarverie who was clubbed for saying her handcuffs were too tight.

And to be honest, this sounds like anything but erasure. It sounds like the author was corrected and graciously made amends. You are really reaching here.

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 07:48AM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

So let me get this straight: you are now attempting to appropriate things said in a random comment section to me?

Okay...

That’s not getting anything straight. You claimed that you hadn’t heard of Storm DeLarverie before now, and accused me of all sorts of nonsense. I was able to point out to you that it was from a link that you had posted yourself, and still you try play like I’m doing something which I haven’t done at all? Just go back to your own previous post, you’ll see it for yourself. You tried to claim I was targeting you and you had no recollection of whom I was referring to. That’s why I posted the exact post I was referring to and the link within it, because that’s all I was ascribing to you, that which you had already written yourself. Now you should be straight on the matter.

And for what it’s worth -

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

But I don't know what, if any, good a discussion on TERFs here is going to do anyone. I'm not really interested in hearing or arguing the merits of their "concerns" either, because, quite frankly, it's just hate speech and fear-mongering when you boil it down.

This just shows for all your talk about the “LGBT community”, when you boil it down quite frankly it appears your concerns are only for yourself and those people who already agree with you. Of course you’re not interested in hearing the concerns of others within the community who’s interests conflict with your own. Can’t say I blame you, but that still doesn’t give you any right to refer to anyone as trash.

P_1 · 29-08-2018 08:30AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They could potentially co-exist of course as rights being recognised in a legal sense, but I don’t think anyone would actually be either interested or satisfied with that outcome, and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t be satisfied with it either. There are a number of what I would consider legitimate concerns that feminist lesbian women absolutely have every right to be concerned about that warrant consideration -

Feminists Clash with Transgenders at London Pride Parade

Erm how and why? Not being obtuse but out of all the feminists of all orientations that I know and count among my friends from everywhere between Dublin, Belfast, Manchester, London, Boston, Los Angeles and everywhere in between, not a single one follows that logic.

If you are cis female and are only attracted to other cis females there is no issue there whatsoever. Nobody is threatening that whatsoever.

Quite why such an issue has suddenly developed in what appears to be a very small minority of people who are twisted the equality message of feminism is quite beyond me.

baby and crumble · 29-08-2018 09:03AM

My issue with TERFs is that they basically disagree that trans women are women, or that trans men are men (although that last bit gets mixed up sometimes, poor babas seem confused). They also seem to think that transitioning weakens their position as women or something. I still can’t wrap my head around that one.

Of course in theory anyone has the right to protest for what they believe but also there’s a time and a place. Fundamentalist transphobic/ homophobic protestors would likely be quickly moved on from protesting at Pride, yet because the protestors were queer themeselves it’s ok? Nope. It’s LGBT pride, the T needs to be protected.

And if they have the “right” to assert that trans women aren’t women then I have the right to tell them they aren’t true feminists. Not one feminist (or to push it further, not one lesbian feminist) I know these days agreed with those protestors at London Pride.

Tbh I’ve gotten huge grief from TERFs online. They seem so angry. I don’t understand how one group of people obtaining rights could possibly undermine another.

P_1 · 29-08-2018 09:12AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

My issue with TERFs is that they basically disagree that trans women are women, or that trans men are men (although that last bit gets mixed up sometimes, poor babas seem confused). They also seem to think that transitioning weakens their position as women or something. I still can’t wrap my head around that one.

Of course in theory anyone has the right to protest for what they believe but also there’s a time and a place. Fundamentalist transphobic/ homophobic protestors would likely be quickly moved on from protesting at Pride, yet because the protestors were queer themeselves it’s ok? Nope. It’s LGBT pride, the T needs to be protected.

And if they have the “right” to assert that trans women aren’t women then I have the right to tell them they aren’t true feminists. Not one feminist (or to push it further, not one lesbian feminist) I know these days agreed with those protestors at London Pride.

Tbh I’ve gotten huge grief from TERFs online. They seem so angry. I don’t understand how one group of people obtaining rights could possibly undermine another.

Thankfully it appears to be confined to London. The messaging at Manchester Pride appears to have indicated that

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 09:53AM

P_1 wrote: »

Erm how and why? Not being obtuse but out of all the feminists of all orientations that I know and count among my friends from everywhere between Dublin, Belfast, Manchester, London, Boston, Los Angeles and everywhere in between, not a single one follows that logic.

If you are cis female and are only attracted to other cis females there is no issue there whatsoever. Nobody is threatening that whatsoever.

Quite why such an issue has suddenly developed in what appears to be a very small minority of people who are twisted the equality message of feminism is quite beyond me.

You’d be forgiven for being unaware of it, but it’s absolutely not true to suggest that nobody is threatening the rights of lesbian women to decide for themselves whom they consider potential sexual partners.

It’s developed into such an issue simply because lesbian women just like straight women didn’t speak up about issues which affected them, instead deferring to a more submissive position in society under men.

Women who identify as feminists are generally concerned with promoting women’s equality and empowering women to be able to speak up for themselves and support each other, and that’s why you’re hearing about it now, and it has been going on long, long before the stunt they pulled at London Pride. I expect this is their turn as women and as lesbians to say that they aren’t interested in playing a submissive role for transgender politics either.

baby and crumble · 29-08-2018 09:56AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’d be forgiven for being unaware of it, but it’s absolutely not true to suggest that nobody is threatening the rights of lesbian women to decide for themselves whom they consider potential sexual partners.

Show me. Show me where there is more than an odd comment here and there on a weird online board or on social media.

One eyed Jack · 29-08-2018 10:14AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

Show me. Show me where there is more than an odd comment here and there on a weird online board or on social media.

The term cotton ceiling is used to identify what some transgender activists have identified among lesbian women as a reluctance to include people who are transgender in their sexual communities. There are plenty of sources on the internet and not just obscure random blogs, and of course there is plenty of it on social media because that’s where a lot of this sort of stuff gains traction. It’s been around since the ‘70’s in feminist circles, so it’s not like this is anything particularly new. It’s just a more modern take on how to guilt trip women into submission.

splinter65 · 29-08-2018 10:21AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

Show me. Show me where there is more than an odd comment here and there on a weird online board or on social media.

Is it not the case that all lesbians including those who have fought hard to stop the violence visited on women by men, are being asked to accept that anyone can now self identify not only as a woman but as a lesbian?
As a straight woman I have no problem understanding how in particular feminist lesbians would feel very threatened by that notion. Especially when your own extended community is telling you that you must accept this without question.

baby and crumble · 29-08-2018 10:43AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The term cotton ceiling is used to identify what some transgender activists have identified among lesbian women as a reluctance to include people who are transgender in their sexual communities.

I think this whole argument still hinges on whether or not you see transwomen as women or not. If you fancy women, and a transwoman is a woman in your eyes then you may be attracted to her. I know I fancy plenty of transwomen, because I see them as women, and I am attracted to women. Obviously I'm not attracted to all transwomen because that would be weird and slightly creepy.

If the reason you don't fancy any transwomen is because you don't view transwomen as women FULL STOP then yeah, your assertion is transphobic. Of course it is. Nobody should be forced into sexual activity with someone they are not attracted to (or anyone, obviously) and I just can't see these assertions that women are being guilted into being attracted as having real life merit. Being told your transphobic beliefs are transphobic isn't bullying.

splinter65 wrote: »

Is it not the case that all lesbians including those who have fought hard to stop the violence visited on women by men, are being asked to accept that anyone can now self identify not only as a woman but as a lesbian?
As a straight woman I have no problem understanding how in particular feminist lesbians would feel very threatened by that notion. Especially when your own extended community is telling you that you must accept this without question.

Everyone self-identifies as a gender and a sexuality. You yourself identify as a woman and as straight.

And yes, I am being asked to accept that anyone can self-identify as a woman and as a lesbian. I'm 100% fine with that because I'm secure enough in myself to understand that what Nancy down the road does is of no consequence to me.

Look I will be totally honest and admit I was horribly transphobic when I was in my early 20's. I was like "don't be stupid, you can't be trans and a lesbian, why would you identify as a woman and then as a lesbian when you could stay as a man and be straight?" It literally made no sense to me. But then I grew up and realised that people identifying as who they are, people realsing late that they are trans, or queer, or asexual, or whatever it is literally makes zero difference to my life. I mean honestly, how is a person trasnitioning of their own accord impact your life directly? Unless that trans person is an asshole about it, then they are not. Not one bit. My status as a lesbian is not even remotely threatened by somebody transitioning. It's not like there's only X number of vaginas allowed in the world, and if someone gets one when they're 40 my minge will magically disappear.

:rolleyes:

P_1 · 29-08-2018 10:54AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’d be forgiven for being unaware of it, but it’s absolutely not true to suggest that nobody is threatening the rights of lesbian women to decide for themselves whom they consider potential sexual partners.

It’s developed into such an issue simply because lesbian women just like straight women didn’t speak up about issues which affected them, instead deferring to a more submissive position in society under men.

Women who identify as feminists are generally concerned with promoting women’s equality and empowering women to be able to speak up for themselves and support each other, and that’s why you’re hearing about it now, and it has been going on long, long before the stunt they pulled at London Pride. I expect this is their turn as women and as lesbians to say that they aren’t interested in playing a submissive role for transgender politics either.

Well all I can say to that is that my circle of friends is as wide and diverse on many many spectrums and not once has this issue cropped up on anybody's radar. Having said that I do have a suspicion that TERFs would recoil in horror at some of our world views as they would not fit into the black and white they seem to like to assign people into.

The TL:DR version can be essentially boiled down to.

If you're straight that's fine
If you're gay that's also fine
If you're bi guess what that's fine too
If you're pan, also fine
If you're poly, fire ahead
If you're ace, if you'll forgive the pun, that's ace

So long as all parties consent and it's safe and sane then frankly where is the bloody issue.

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 29-08-2018 02:11PM

P_1 wrote:

If you are cis female and are only attracted to other cis females there is no issue there whatsoever. Nobody is threatening that whatsoever.

baby and crumble wrote:

If the reason you don't fancy any transwomen is because you don't view transwomen as women FULL STOP then yeah, your assertion is transphobic. Of course it is. Nobody should be forced into sexual activity with someone they are not attracted to (or anyone, obviously) and I just can't see these assertions that women are being guilted into being attracted as having real life merit. Being told your transphobic beliefs are transphobic isn't bullying.

I was told I was scum and 'I should just die already' when I was pressured into answering a question about genital preference that was nobody's business. This was at a gathering for queer women. I honestly don't think it's transphobic that I accept transwomen as women but have no interest in sex involving a penis no matter whom it's attached to. This was the crux of the discussion by the way, I didn't bring it up nor would I ever, I would never assume what someone has or hasn't and I don't think it defines their gender. But it definitely defines if I'm going to engage in a sexual relationship with them and there is rhetoric creeping in that that's not okay. Surely as LGBTQ people we should be encouraging consent not coercion. It doesn't make you not a lesbian if you're cool with a woman no matter the genitals, but it also doesn't make you transphobic if you do have a preference.

I tried read all I could on the matter at the time, and the TERFs prey on that. A lot of the discourse sounded reasonable and then suddenly bam you get to transwomen are not women/transmen are not men territory. I knew to click away at that point but a lot of people probably don't and get sucked in.

I worry about the two extreme voices shouting the loudest and vulnerable people, trans or cis, getting caught up in it when I think most people aren't so filled with bile.

P_1 · 29-08-2018 02:22PM

Adrian Few Medicine wrote: »

I was told I was scum and 'I should just die already' when I was pressured into answering a question about genital preference that was nobody's business. This was at a gathering for queer women. I honestly don't think it's transphobic that I accept transwomen as women but have no interest in sex involving a penis no matter whom it's attached to. This was the crux of the discussion by the way, I didn't bring it up nor would I ever, I would never assume what someone has or hasn't and I don't think it defines their gender. But it definitely defines if I'm going to engage in a sexual relationship with them and there is rhetoric creeping in that that's not okay. Surely as LGBTQ people we should be encouraging consent not coercion. It doesn't make you not a lesbian if you're cool with a woman no matter the genitals, but it also doesn't make you transphobic if you do have a preference.

I tried read all I could on the matter at the time, and the TERFs prey on that. A lot of the discourse sounded reasonable and then suddenly bam you get to transwomen are not women/transmen are not men territory. I knew to click away at that point but a lot of people probably don't and get sucked in.

I worry about the two extreme voices shouting the loudest and vulnerable people, trans or cis, getting caught up in it when I think most people aren't so filled with bile.

Jesus that's horrific. Was this in Ireland? Honestly I thought we were better than that

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 29-08-2018 02:27PM

No, the US.

I'd like to hope we're better than that too, and TERFism, but I'm sure people have experienced it everywhere.

baby and crumble · 29-08-2018 02:43PM

Adrian Few Medicine wrote: »

I was told I was scum and 'I should just die already' when I was pressured into answering a question about genital preference that was nobody's business. This was at a gathering for queer women.

That's really ****ty and awful.

It's all a bit weird really to have so many people fixated on gentials. What ones do you have, what ones to you not like, what ones would you allow smush up into yours...

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 29-08-2018 02:51PM

baby and crumble wrote:

It's all a bit weird really to have so many people fixated on gentials. What ones do you have, what ones to you not like, what ones would you allow smush up into yours...

I agree, I always thought that would only be a conversation I need to have with a prospective partner.

P_1 · 29-08-2018 03:49PM

Ok that's frankly bizarre.

Would it be fair to say that there are extremes on both sides that are causing normal trans people harm in the crossfire? Is there any chance of the middle ground telling both extremes to cop on and maybe just maybe trans people will get the rights that they deserve and have deserved for a long bloody time or have we descended too far into the rabbit hole?

The worrying rise of TERFism in the UK (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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