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The worrying rise of TERFism in the UK (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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    #182
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    And you keep refusing to accept that many transwomen have never experienced this so called male privilege.

    Do you want me to start making stuff up to make you feel better about that?

    Just so you can't keep trying to misconstrue what I say, let me be very clear: I absolutely accept that some transwomen have never benefited from male privilege because they've always been perceived as being outwardly different just like some gay people have never been perceived as being straight because of outward characteristics. For a lot of people, those two perceptions probably overlap because people jump to a perception of sexuality before a perception of gender when it comes to being 'othered'.

    However, SOME people are perceived to be outwardly cis and straight for their whole lives and simply being trans is not an indicator if one has or not benefitted from privilege extending from this. It boils down to how an individual has been perceived and discussions on this are worth having to see how we fight it.


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    #183
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Biology is accepted though, in most cases.

    "In most cases"? Yes, glad you added that caveat. Because on the subject of gender and even as to whether somebody is gay it is very much an open case.
    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Very few feminists deny that men are on average stronger than women. And many argue that (cis)women have it biologically worse too. Menses, childbirth etc.

    Not all cis women experience are even capable of childbirth. Also this will probably blow your mind, but many transwomen experience period symptoms and even a menopause. https://theestablishment.co/yes-trans-women-can-get-period-symptoms-e43a43979e8c/

    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    TERF feminism isn’t a reaction to trans ideologies..

    It's literally in the name. In fact it's the first letter.


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    #184
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Fact finding (devils advocate) question: As someone who is an LGBTQ ally, and opposed to radical feminism, can I ask why feminism is suddenly ok to label as "wrong" when it excludes someone based on their criteria?

    This isn't just an issue with trans advocacies and trans exclusionary feminism, there's a huge shift going on from what is called white feminism towards intersectional feminism which seeks to represent women at all intersects of race, sexuality, gender etc. It's an overall rejection of feminism that isn't inclusive and seeks to highlight issues where all of these identities intersect instead of women as one homogenous group (which often only sought to further white women in the process)


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    #185
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Fact finding (devils advocate) question: As someone who is an LGBTQ ally, and opposed to radical feminism, can I ask why feminism is suddenly ok to label as "wrong" when it excludes someone based on their criteria?

    There is more than a single branch of feminism.... Many feminists refuse to subscribe to a branch that is about diminishing/limiting the rights of another group because of hysteria. Much of trans exclusionary feminism seems more intent on attacking trans community more than anything else including constant vilifying them..

    Thankfully it's pretty much non existent in Ireland and the few examples I've seen of it here are pretty vitriolic and nasty.


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    #186
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Adrian Few Medicine wrote: »
    Just so you can't keep trying to misconstrue what I say, let me be very clear: I absolutely accept that some transwomen have never benefited from male privilege because they've always been perceived as being outwardly different just like some gay people have never been perceived as being straight because of outward characteristics. For a lot of people, those two perceptions probably overlap because people jump to a perception of sexuality before a perception of gender when it comes to being 'othered'.

    However, SOME people are perceived to be outwardly cis and straight for their whole lives and simply being trans is not an indicator if one has or not benefitted from privilege extending from this. It boils down to how an individual has been perceived and discussions on this are worth having to see how we fight it.

    And I agreed with you on this point. But many will take the example of those, like Jenner, who have undoubtedly experienced a male privilege and extrapolate to mean "all transwomen" must have the same experience. I wanted to be absolutely adamant that is far from the truth.

    I do apologise for crossed-wires and will concede that was not your meaning.


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    #187
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    "In most cases"? Yes, glad you added that caveat. Because on the subject of gender and even as to whether somebody is gay it is very much an open case.

    Most cases means what it says. There are very few claims that biology is totally irrelevant.
    Not all cis women experience are even capable of childbirth. Also this will probably blow your mind, but many transwomen experience period symptoms and even a menopause. https://theestablishment.co/yes-trans-women-can-get-period-symptoms-e43a43979e8c/

    I was actually debating whether to put in the piece about biological realities affecting most women because this isn’t very relevant to the feminist ideology about social construction, which trans ideology also tends to ignore.

    It's literally in the name. In fact it's the first letter.

    The term is imposed on these feminists not by them.


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    #188
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Most cases means what it says. There are very few claims that biology is totally irrelevant.

    Oh, I could think of a few... but we would be veering of in wild philosophical tangents
    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

    I was actually debating whether to put in the piece about biological realities affecting most women because this isn’t very relevant to the feminist ideology about social construction.

    Agreed

    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »


    The term is imposed on these feminists not by them.

    The term came to being because their ideology of trans exclusion

    There would be no need for the term White Supremacist if there were no people of colour either.


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    #189
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    And I agreed with you on this point. But many will take the example of those, like Jenner, who have undoubtedly experienced a male privilege and extrapolate to mean "all transwomen" must have the same experience. I wanted to be absolutely adamant that is far from the truth.

    I do apologise for crossed-wires and will concede that was not your meaning.

    Hey, JTF, I appreciate that and I'm sorry if I got a little short.

    I wholeheartedly agree that anyone using one figurehead as a template for the whole community needs to be shut down and that that prevailing belief is very damaging. Especially someone like CJ who uses her wealth and status to promote ideas and people that actively damage the community she's supposed to be a part of.

    I would shut down anyone who tries to isolate one case and project everyone to be the same. A lot of gay women will recognize the 'lesbian that sleeps/ends up with with a man' trope that ends up being in a lot of TV shows/movies which then trickles down into peoples consciousness and ends up being reflected onto actual people. When only one person or type of person is being shown, people assume that's the only type of person there is.

    This is the same issue on a smaller scale, but goes to the same point in that we need lots of varied and diverse voices speaking up so people don't think one trans person represents them all. That takes us back to the the TERFS who really seem to just want to portray one idea of a transwoman, usually a predator of some kind. I just think that's why a trans perspective on privilege is so important because it flies in the face of what the TERFs are trying to do (claim transwomen are using privilege for their benefit 'as a man' instead of using it to help other women further the cause).

    Anyway, hey, I'm sorry if I upset you at all. I'm not here to make things harder for my trans siblings.


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    #190
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,912 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Fact finding (devils advocate) question: As someone who is an LGBTQ ally, and opposed to radical feminism, can I ask why feminism is suddenly ok to label as "wrong" when it excludes someone based on their criteria?

    Its a particularly nasty insidious hateful version of feminism. There are trans inclusive forms of feminism as we have seen here in Ireland. Feminism itself isnt wrong. TERF feminism is wrong because it is a nasty hateful ideology.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #191
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,912 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    You might as well say that feminism in general is obsessed by the penis. Bindel is particularly anti male. Or anti male supremacy as she would put it.

    ( But also anti male. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/nov/02/whyihatemen )

    It’s a general claim of feminism that having a penis (a biological fact) leads to general privileges and gender advantages, these advantages are primarily constructed and not primarily biological

    Biology is accepted though, in most cases. Very few feminists deny that men are on average stronger than women. And many argue that (cis)women have it biologically worse too. Menses, childbirth etc.

    Transphillia drives a horse and coaches through this argument by saying that Caitlyn Jenner’s life as a man didn’t matter; something internal managed to overcome the social construction or biological fact that she was a gendered and biological male for most of her life.

    This means that if caitlyn is truely a female that neither the biological reality of ciswomen nor the social construction imposed on them by having a vagina matters. There is a biological essentialism here but it only applies to trans people.

    For a feminist to believe that she has to believe that the unique experience of being a lived in biological woman and the social construction that society imposed on that person with a vagina are mere frippery, which means abandoning most feminism as it was taught until a few years ago. TERF feminism isn’t a reaction to trans ideologies. It’s teaching what has always been taught, saying what has always been said, and believing what has always been believed.

    No TERF feminism is one form of feminism. Feminism is not a unilateral thing that only one thing can ever be taught. The idea that all feminists are TERFs is complete nonsense. Look at how feminists here in Ireland reacted to UK TERFs attempting to inveigle themselves here

    https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #192
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Transphobia is a word applied to anybody who disagrees with trans ideologies. You haven’t supplied examples of hatred or violence, although both exist on the other side.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/death-threats-force-feminist-campaigner-out-of-university-debate-8821362.html

    What about radical femaphobia though ? surely there is a lot of that when it come to the hatred of TERF ?


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    #193
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    Interesting that you are not even attempting to excuse or justify the hate filled stickers and how they literally reduce people to nothing other than genitals.

    Agreed, but so is reducing people to nothing other than their sexuality.


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    #194
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    That isn't a genuine answer. The attacks on TERF could equally be deemed radical femaphobia


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    #195
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,912 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    That isn't a genuine answer. The attacks on TERF could equally be deemed radical femaphobia

    It is. We are discussing the violent hateful ideology of TERFs and all you are adding is whataboutery and random pointless one liners.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #196
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It is. We are discussing the violent hateful ideology of TERFs and all you are adding is whataboutery and random pointless one liners.

    Some of those in TERF may be transphobic, but some of the attacks on TERF smack equally of radical femaphobia. You don't contradict what you disagree with by doing the same thing back.


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    #197
    skybox2014
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭skybox2014


    It is disappointing, but not surprising, that the safeguarding women and girls and the risk to sex-segregated spaces is still not being addressed, and has been side stepped on this thread - it is at the heart of why UK feminists are campaigning.
    No compromise or alternative solution is proposed, just activists hell-bent on getting male-bodied people into women's sex-segregated spaces and to hell with the consequences.
    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    This is, granted, far less malignant than sexual predators abusing the system, nonetheless, these stories are bound to emerge from all this - https://www.joe.ie/life-style/man-becomes-woman-insurance-635741.

    No, self-id isn't perfect. Yes, it is a policy open to being abused. And yes, transpeople are more than a little worried about it being abused - I would argue far more so than even TERFs. No matter who abuses it, one single individual acting alone (cis or not), it will be all trans people (with a particular emphasis as always on transwomen) who will face a backlash.

    I would actually go as far as saying TERFs revel in stories where the system has been abused, as it only plays to their agenda.

    JackTaylorFan admits self-id isn't perfect and is open to abuse.
    And who is the collateral damage?

    Why would you expect UK women and girls to accept a change in the law that makes their safe spaces less safe? Especially when there are demonstratable cases of self ID harming women. How many women and girls would have to be sexually assaulted before activists actually care enough to do something?

    There is simply no way to tell who is a 'safe' male-bodied person from the dangerous kind, so sexual predators will do as they have always done and look for easy access to vulnerable women and girls, using self ID, as they have already started to in the UK.

    Today's Sunday Times article about Karen White/ Stephen Wood / David Thompson contains a long list of sexual and violent offences, all known, some committed in mixed psychiatric wards. And still, they were placed in a women's prison (which has a mother and baby unit). Where is the concern for women's and girl's safety?

    UK women want to talk about the proposed changes to the UK GRA because it directly impacts them - there is a direct conflict of interest that has to be talked about.

    JackTaylorFan, if trans women are just as concerned about self ID being abused, then what are they and other activists doing about it? Genuine question.


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    #198
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,531 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its a particularly nasty insidious hateful version of feminism. There are trans inclusive forms of feminism as we have seen here in Ireland. Feminism itself isnt wrong. TERF feminism is wrong because it is a nasty hateful ideology.
    I'd never actually seen the term "terf" before, hence my questioning.
    I'm all for equal rights and inclusion but I despise the agenda of some feminists of "the evils of men". This would seem to continue down that line of excluding trans women.


    The story earlier of a trans woman being excluded from a rape victims support group for women is shocking. Like what the victim needed when seeking support was more victimising.


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    #199
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    skybox2014 wrote: »
    Why would you expect UK women and girls to accept a change in the law that makes their safe spaces less safe? Especially when there are demonstratable cases of self ID harming women.

    And solely to accommodate .3% of the population..


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    #200
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,912 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rennaws wrote: »
    And solely to accommodate .3% of the population..

    I know yeah right. How dare they. How dare minorities ask to be accomodated. Its a disgrace. An outrage.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #201
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,531 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I know yeah right. How dare they. How dare minorities ask to be accomodated. Its a disgrace. An outrage.
    IMO it's worse when minorities attempt to discriminate against other minorities. They should know better!


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    #202
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I know yeah right. How dare they. How dare minorities ask to be accomodated. Its a disgrace. An outrage.

    Your being deliberately disingenuous with that comment but as I’ve said, I don’t need anything to change so work away.

    Just don’t be surprised when the 99.7% say no.


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    #203
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    I wonder if lessons learned from the victorious campaigns to achieve marriage equality and repelling the 8th can be applied here. I certainly see parallels between the concerns regarding shared spaces and some of the concerns that were expressed by no or leaning no voters on the 8th.

    The only concern on that score would be the potential mental health harm that having these conversations would have on some trans people.


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    #204
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Your being deliberately disingenuous with that comment but as I’ve said, I don’t need anything to change so work away.

    Just don’t be surprised when the 99.7% say no.

    You do realise that there are no constitutional issues at play here and so the general public will not be voting on these issues.

    Legally, trans rights are advancing, even if there is horrific discrimination by the the general public.

    Portraying yourself as someone who needs to be asked and placated so that trans rights can progress is nonsense.

    You have zero power here. Nobody has to convince you about trans rights.


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    #205
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    You do realise that there are no constitutional issues at play here and so the general public will not be voting on these issues.

    Legally, trans rights are advancing, even if there is horrific discrimination by the the general public.

    Portraying yourself as someone who needs to be asked and placated so that trans rights can progress is nonsense.

    You have zero power here. Nobody has to convince you about trans rights.

    It's a bit more nuanced if you're discussing single sex spaces and the ability of those who self identify to enter those spaces. Concerns about this idea are hardly "horrific discrimination".

    Do you hold one fist in the air when posting stuff like your last sentence?


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    #206
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Emerie Witty Electricity wrote: »
    It's a bit more nuanced if you're discussing single sex spaces and the ability of those who self identify to enter those spaces. Concerns about this idea are hardly "horrific discrimination".

    Isn't it though? When you're literally talking about discriminating against an entire group of individuals based on your personal "concerns".

    Isn't that pretty horrific discrimination?


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    #207
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    Goodshape wrote: »
    Isn't it though? When you're literally talking about discriminating against an entire group of individuals based on your personal "concerns".

    Isn't that pretty horrific discrimination?

    It's an undefined (limitless in size) group if the assertion is that anyone can self identify as any gender, and that is all that is required to access spaces designated for that gender only.


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    #208
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Portraying yourself as someone who needs to be asked and placated so that trans rights can progress is nonsense.

    Yet another disingenuous post.

    I've portrayed myself as no such thing.

    Change in any society requires consensus from the majority.

    I didn't think I needed to explain that but there you go..
    LLMMLL wrote: »
    You have zero power here. Nobody has to convince you about trans rights.

    Well yes and no..

    Try sending a trans woman with a penis into the ladies changing room at my local gym and i'm guessing you'll have a problem on your hands.

    As will all the members as they file out the door while canceling their memberships.

    So yes we do all have power and you are correct, no one has to convince me of anything..

    I honestly don't give a fiddlers. I have zero issues with nudity and would share changing spaces with (almost) anyone or any gender, trans or not.

    You might need to convince a few others though..


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    #209
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Yet another disingenuous post.

    I've portrayed myself as no such thing.

    Change in any society requires consensus from the majority.

    I didn't think I needed to explain that but there you go..



    Well yes and no..

    Try sending a trans woman with a penis into the ladies changing room at my local gym and i'm guessing you'll have a problem on your hands.

    As will all the members as they file out the door while canceling their memberships.

    So yes we do all have power and you are correct, no one has to convince me of anything..

    I honestly don't give a fiddlers. I have zero issues with nudity and would share changing spaces with (almost) anyone or any gender, trans or not.

    You might need to convince a few others though..

    Except it’s not true that change in society requires consensus from the majority.

    Homosexuality was decriminalised without consent from the majority in an atmosphere of extreme homophobia.

    Gay people have only had to “convince” the majority in one case. Gay marriage. And that was only because of a constitutional issue.

    Trans rights can progress in the same manner.

    How people will react to sharing their single sex spaces with trans people is unknown but I’m doubtful any change will be made from debating people who already have their minds made up on boards.


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    #210
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    skybox2014 wrote: »


    JackTaylorFan admits self-id isn't perfect and is open to abuse.
    And who is the collateral damage?

    Me, and people in my position, we are the collateral damage. Because we are the ones facing the public backlash from one person in millions abusing a right that was meant to help us not make us public enemy no.1 as we are portrayed as so evidenced here on Boards every time trans rights comes up in debate.

    But thanks for letting me make that point again.


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    #211
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    skybox2014 wrote: »
    JackTaylorFan, if trans women are just as concerned about self ID being abused, then what are they and other activists doing about it? Genuine question.


    I should clarify, I am not in any position to change anything. I am not a policy maker, nor do I hold much sway in any community. I would suggest, if I did hold any influence, that sexual offenders like White/Wood/Whatever gave up any right to be around gen pop in any prison system.

    As I have stated before, this person is a monster and needs to be dropped down a hole and left there to rot, this is the latest on that individual - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapist-karen-white-in-women-s-jail-was-trans-faker-lbcwjp8jc. This deeply angers me, because, yet again, who will feel the public backlash here? As I said already, people like me. That's who.

    The biggest issue for me with self-IDing is that it is a right that needs to be afforded to trans people - we have had to scrape and fight hard to get even this much. And yes, sadly, some people are going to abuse that right, by breaking the law. The crimes of White/Wood/Whatever (after that article, I am not even sure what I am supposed to refer to them as anymore) before entering the prison system were heinous, and regardless of whichever gender they identified as at the time of those offences, they seemed to have access to their victims. I have since read what this piece of **** is alleged to have done once inside - and yes, it is awful and can in no way be condoned - but was it as serious as the rapes committed prior to prison? Thankfully not - https://nypost.com/2018/09/07/transgender-woman-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-inmates/. I would actually welcome the idea of self-Iding criminals convicted of serious sexual assault and rape being sent to a prison where they are least likely to be able to hurt anyone else - and in most cases, that would be a men's prison. I don't know if this is a popular opinion or not in the wider trans community, because it is something I feel some don't want or can't face a discussion on because even by me saying this person's crime (White's) is too vile for me to respect their supposed gender identity's (fraudulently claimed or not) right to a woman's space does diminish what self-Iding is supposed to mean for our whole community.

    Really, I don't know how you solve this. I am sorry it has happened. I am sorry for the victims. It honestly makes me sick and I am deeply upset by these kind of stories. It makes me ashamed and less safe being trans - it stigmatizes the whole community. And it troubles me that I find myself having to try justify my own existence and my need to feel safe once again - as if I am somehow personally putting women and children at risk by just existing at all. The fact is, I am just as much in danger of being assaulted in a women's only space by a monster like White, but I am made to feel like it's somehow my fault that this is happening. I feel guilt when I shouldn't. However, despite that misplaced guilt (and it is misplaced), what I am not prepared to do is give up those rights (diminished or not) for the rare instances where predators abuse the system and why should I or any other transperson have to for that matter?


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