So who's going to see the Pope?

Fighting Tao · 30-08-2018 12:28pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Each day going forward is the worst day ever for the RCC numbers in Ireland, and for that I am thankful.

Praise the lord!

FrancieBrady · 30-08-2018 12:33pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, it will be looked back on as the day the irish society woke up to the abuse and atrocity committed by the RCC.
RCC numbers will never be as high as they are today, which are an all time low currently.

Each day going forward is the worst day ever for the RCC numbers in Ireland, and for that I am thankful.

Not only that, the 'real' ****show, (****show in the sense of affecting dramatic change in the Vatican and Roman Church), is what is happening in the US. And that is only beginning.

Odhinn · 30-08-2018 12:44pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not only that, the 'real' ****show, (****show in the sense of affecting dramatic change in the Vatican and Roman Church), is what is happening in the US. And that is only beginning.

And its always driven by external forces - you don't get religous orders coming forward with the evidence of abuse and abusers and saying mea culpa. It robs them of any moral high ground they may have laid claim to.

Sycamore Tree · 30-08-2018 6:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

no it doesn't.

My orginal point was...

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

The Vatican and it's loyal followers always attack the messenger first. When the messenger provides the evidence, they go silent and stick their heads in the sand. I think they believe ignoring the problem will make it go away. Now they think regular apploogies will make it go away.

You courteously asked for evidence....

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

When we learned the pope was not familiar with Magdalene Laundries or Industrial schools when he met abuse survivors.
This was 4 days ago. Did you forget?

Hitman3000 wrote: »

That as suggested, he sticks his head in the sand.

Deleted User wrote: »

no it doesn't.

Huh? Why not? Because Fr. Plenty says so?

Ok I'll be your huckleberry. Let's go through the chain of events to make it easy;

1. 2014: Philomena Lee and Steve Coogan had an an audience with Pope Francis and a Vatican screening of the film which shows Lee's son being sold for adoption by nuns in the Magdelen Laundry.

2. Last weekend 2018: In the meeting with 8 abuse survivors, the pope expressed astonishment that the laundries and industrial schools had ever existed. Those who met with him said Pope Francis was “taken aback” and “shocked” as to what went on at mother and baby homes, and professed to have “no idea” what a Magdalen Laundry was.

To most rational people, that's wilfully ignoring the problem or telling lies, infallibly. It's what the Vatican do best. These stories are in newspapers worldwide.
I wonder did he know about the 800 babies in the septic tank in Tuam? The New York Times knows.

To summarise - Yes it does.

Over to you.

Sycamore Tree · 30-08-2018 6:39pm

Odhinn wrote: »

And its always driven by external forces - you don't get religous orders coming forward with the evidence of abuse and abusers and saying mea culpa. It robs them of any moral high ground they may have laid claim to.

This has always bothered me.

Where was the internal agitation amongst Roman Catholic priests against child abuse? Where was it anywhere? I could never see any evidence of it.

Any other organisation throughout the world, no matter how dysfunctional that organisation might be, would expect to see internal agitation if children were being abused on a regular basis and the abusers were going unpunished.

I mean many many priests must have knowledge of other priests raping children and, when caught, being moved on to other locations to continue their abuse. They would have seen little or no sanctions for the abusers. How did the "good" priests stay silent? Why did they not revolt against the culture or abuse and cover-up? Why is there no evidence of priests taking a stand?

It boggles the mind.

FrancieBrady · 30-08-2018 6:44pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

This has always bothered me.

Where was the internal agitation amongst Roman Catholic priests against child abuse? Where was it anywhere? I could never see any evidence of it.

Any other organisation throughout the world, no matter how dysfunctional that organisation might be, would expect to see internal agitation if children were being abused on a regular basis and the abusers were going unpunished.

I mean many many priests must have knowledge of other priests raping children and, when caught, being moved on to other locations to continue their abuse. They would have seen little or no sanctions for the abusers. How did the "good" priests stay silent? Why did they not revolt against the culture or abuse and cover-up? Why is there no evidence of priests taking a stand?

It boggles the mind.

Yes. This whole notion of 'ah but there are good priests' should be regularly challenged.

If you are 'good' what are you still doing in an organisation that refuses to sort these issues out.

Sycamore Tree · 30-08-2018 6:47pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes. This whole notion of 'ah but there are good priests' should be regularly challenged.

If you are 'good' what are you still doing in an organisation that refuses to sort these issues out.

Yes but I am looking for evidence of internal agitation in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s when child abuse by priests was commonplace and when the solution was to cover it up and "move them on".

Odhinn · 30-08-2018 6:56pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

This has always bothered me.

Where was the internal agitation amongst Roman Catholic priests against child abuse? Where was it anywhere? I could never see any evidence of it.

Any other organisation throughout the world, no matter how dysfunctional that organisation might be, would expect to see internal agitation if children were being abused on a regular basis and the abusers were going unpunished.

I mean many many priests must have knowledge of other priests raping children and, when caught, being moved on to other locations to continue their abuse. They would have seen little or no sanctions for the abusers. How did the "good" priests stay silent? Why did they not revolt against the culture or abuse and cover-up? Why is there no evidence of priests taking a stand?

It boggles the mind.

This is what I've said before - the loyalty of priests in an order is not firstly to (for instance) children in their care. They come in somewhere down the list after fellow priests/friends/lovers etc. There are also vows of absolute obedience and protocols of behaviour that mean a seniors orders or explanation of his activities/ movements must be taken on his word. They live according to a code that is given primacy over normal behaviour and mores.

Odhinn · 30-08-2018 6:58pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Yes but I am looking for evidence of internal agitation in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s when child abuse by priests was commonplace and when the solution was to cover it up and "move them on".

In some places they didn't even do that. In my experience it was only when the Gardai made an appearance that the persons responsible faced repercussions (from inside the order) and were removed from teaching/contact with children.

Sycamore Tree · 30-08-2018 7:16pm

I hate to use that monster Brendan Smyth as an example but his abuse story is one of the few we really have significant details on because he brought down a government. However Smyth was a priest in parishes across Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the United States. He abused well over 200 children over 20-30 years until he went to jail in 1996. We really don't know the full extent of his abuses and victims.

How many priests had knowledge of Smyth child abuse?. We know Cardinal Brady and his superiors knew he was a paedophile in 1975 but how many more priests across NI, Ireland and USA knew about this ongoing child abuse. They must have known he was "moved on" fairly regularly and had their suspicions. 20+ years, 3 countries, many parishes, 200+ children - how many priests stood idly by? A lot.

Again, where was the internal agitation? Was there even one priest that shouted Stop??? Did they all turn a blind eye like that vile man Brady? How did they fcuking sleep at night?

How many Smyths were out there and how many Bradys decided inaction was the best policy?

It boggles and angers me.

I am not sure how loyal followers of Rome rationalise this. These cowardly priests are still saying mass every weekend.

.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-08-2018 1:04am

Priests in Ireland all knew each other. They all went to a handful of seminaries, someone they know would be bound to know pretty much any other priest in Ireland. If a "friend of a friend" was moved on suddenly they would know about it. When the same thing happens to that "friend of a friend" a second time then it would be entirely obvious that something was badly wrong.

Odhinn · 31-08-2018 1:23am

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

I hate to use that monster Brendan Smyth as an example but his abuse story is one of the few we really have significant details on because he brought down a government. However Smyth was a priest in parishes across Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the United States. He abused well over 200 children over 20-30 years until he went to jail in 1996. We really don't know the full extent of his abuses and victims.

How many priests had knowledge of Smyth child abuse?. We know Cardinal Brady and his superiors knew he was a paedophile in 1975 but how many more priests across NI, Ireland and USA knew about this ongoing child abuse. They must have known he was "moved on" fairly regularly and had their suspicions. 20+ years, 3 countries, many parishes, 200+ children - how many priests stood idly by? A lot.

Again, where was the internal agitation? Was there even one priest that shouted Stop??? Did they all turn a blind eye like that vile man Brady? How did they fcuking sleep at night?

How many Smyths were out there and how many Bradys decided inaction was the best policy?

It boggles and angers me.

I am not sure how loyal followers of Rome rationalise this. These cowardly priests are still saying mass every weekend.

.

With Tony Walsh it was common knowledge what he was at and his inclinations - "I think it important that every one of us should at this stage avoid any excessive reaction – no matter what the civil law may say" (long read but worth it - Gardai don't come out of it too well either)
http://bocktherobber.com/2010/12/murphy-commission-report-chapter-19-tony-walsh-summary/

Strazdas · 31-08-2018 2:01am

Just been looking at the RTE ratings for last weekend

Average of 535,000 viewers watched the full Papal Mass from Phoenix Park with a peak audience of 1.1m viewers.

Average of 379,000 viewers watched the four hour Festival of Families event at Croke Park on RTE2 on Saturday evening, with a peak audience of 570,000 viewers.

Those figures are pretty decent, probably higher than people might have anticipated.

ELM327 · 31-08-2018 7:42am

Strazdas wrote: »

Just been looking at the RTE ratings for last weekend

Average of 535,000 viewers watched the full Papal Mass from Phoenix Park with a peak audience of 1.1m viewers.

Average of 379,000 viewers watched the four hour Festival of Families event at Croke Park on RTE2 on Saturday evening, with a peak audience of 570,000 viewers.

Those figures are pretty decent, probably higher than people might have anticipated.

How do they get those figures?
If you count the likes of nursing homes, old folks homes and hospitals you'll probably get half of those numbers.

Trasna1 · 31-08-2018 8:14am

Dannyriver wrote: »

I haven t 'absolved' anyone, I ve described the power of indoctrination and its ability to fashion group think through fear.

How did it suit society at the time?

This isn t all about sheets and tablecloths forced labour is the tip of the ice berg

They didn t care about these people at the time because a huge majority believed they were fallen women who gave birth to illegitimate children and thus were doing their penance for the mortal sins they commited [see my piece on indoctrination above]

I think you need to do some research on indoctrination and the power of psychological abuse plus google group think as a psychological construct while you are at it.

The whole country wasn't indoctrinated - the country wasn't full of pious do gooders. Have a look at the papers from the time and you'll find plenty of bog standard criminality. People were well capable at the time of living outside the rules of the church whether publicly or in private, and the country didn't collapse in a guilt ridden angst.

The Irish aren't the first society to use shame to maintain social order, it suited at the time - and it still happens in Japan today.

And of course it's about more than the slave labour - I'm just using that as an example of the abuse that went on in plain view.

What you had was a country that used shame to maintain social order and a so called moral authority abusing it's position. But it was only in that position because society put it there and any power it had was because people willingly gave it to them. When the people stopped listening and caring for it it's authority was seen to be the paper tiger it really was.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 9:12am

Strazdas wrote:

Those figures are pretty decent, probably higher than people might have anticipated.

An all Ireland final gets better figures and that's an annual event. Frank coming was once in a generation and longer if you go by the gap between 79 and now. Rather poor actually.

Beechwoodspark · 31-08-2018 9:18am

Strazdas wrote: »

Just been looking at the RTE ratings for last weekend

Average of 535,000 viewers watched the full Papal Mass from Phoenix Park with a peak audience of 1.1m viewers.

Average of 379,000 viewers watched the four hour Festival of Families event at Croke Park on RTE2 on Saturday evening, with a peak audience of 570,000 viewers.

Those figures are pretty decent, probably higher than people might have anticipated.

Wow those are really high figures. Didn’t expect it to be so popular with the viewers.

Fighting Tao · 31-08-2018 9:19am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

An all Ireland final gets better figures and that's an annual event. Frank coming was once in a generation and longer if you go by the gap between 79 and now. Rather poor actually.

Shockingly poor seeing that the faithful snapped up so many tickets but couldn’t attend due to any one of the multitude of excuses they had.

Beechwoodspark · 31-08-2018 9:21am

If you combine the attendance figures with the viewership figures it’s pretty impressive. Wow. Didn’t expect it to be so popular

Congrats to all involved

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 9:24am

Beechwoodspark wrote:

If you combine the attendance figures with the viewership figures itâ€™s pretty impressive. Wow. Didnâ€™t expect it to be so popular

You keep telling yourself that. ; )

batgoat · 31-08-2018 9:24am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If you combine the attendance figures with the viewership figures it’s pretty impressive. Wow. Didn’t expect it to be so popular

Rose tinted much?

amcalester · 31-08-2018 9:26am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If you combine the attendance figures with the viewership figures it’s pretty impressive. Wow. Didn’t expect it to be so popular

Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone watching was doing so for religious reasons.

I watched it but am in now way religious or a fan of the church.

I'll also watch the All Ireland on Sunday but I haven't been to a GAA match in about 3 years and I believe in the GAA.

Berserker · 31-08-2018 9:26am

Trasna1 wrote: »

But it was only in that position because society put it there and any power it had was because people willingly gave it to them.

I agree with your post for the most-part but this is not correct. The founding fathers of Ireland, Dev in particular, always saw Ireland as a RCC country. If those guys were not such a shower of bigots, then other religions would have had more of foothold in the country and the stranglehold that the RCC had would not have been present.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 9:44am

The leaders of the Catholic church in Australia have rejected calls to disclose abuse told during confession.

Zubeneschamali · 31-08-2018 9:56am

Berserker wrote: »

I agree with your post for the most-part but this is not correct. The founding fathers of Ireland, Dev in particular, always saw Ireland as a RCC country.

Dev, yes, but the original Free State was less RCC than Dev's vision. hence the 1937 FF Constitution we are stuck with to this day.

ohnonotgmail · 31-08-2018 9:59am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The leaders of the Catholic church in Australia have rejected calls to disclose abuse told during confession.

Hardly a surprise that. The RCC consider themselves above the law.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 10:02am

ohnonotgmail wrote:

Hardly a surprise that. The RCC consider themselves above the law.

It shows their lip service to child protection is exactly that, lip service

Dannyriver · 31-08-2018 10:41am

Trasna1 wrote: »

The whole country wasn't indoctrinated - the country wasn't full of pious do gooders. Have a look at the papers from the time and you'll find plenty of bog standard criminality. People were well capable at the time of living outside the rules of the church whether publicly or in private, and the country didn't collapse in a guilt ridden angst.

The Irish aren't the first society to use shame to maintain social order, it suited at the time - and it still happens in Japan today.

And of course it's about more than the slave labour - I'm just using that as an example of the abuse that went on in plain view.

What you had was a country that used shame to maintain social order and a so called moral authority abusing it's position. But it was only in that position because society put it there and any power it had was because people willingly gave it to them. When the people stopped listening and caring for it it's authority was seen to be the paper tiger it really was.

Most of the country was educated by nuns, christian brothers and priests . Now do you see the connection.

Dannyriver · 31-08-2018 10:43am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If you combine the attendance figures with the viewership figures it’s pretty impressive. Wow. Didn’t expect it to be so popular

Congrats to all involved

Most people I know watched to see how poor the turn out at the event was. The way one would watch a freak show really.

Trasna1 · 31-08-2018 11:02am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The leaders of the Catholic church in Australia have rejected calls to disclose abuse told during confession.

Hardly a surprise when Catholics consider the seal of the confessional absolutely sacrosanct.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 11:05am

Trasna1 wrote:

Hardly a surprise when Catholics consider the seal of the confessional absolutely sacrosanct.

Protection of children should be their first priority but it's the Catholic church.

Arthur Daley · 31-08-2018 11:06am

Dannyriver wrote: »

Most people I know watched to see how poor the turn out at the event was. The way one would watch a freak show really.

Not much going on with your life to spend a Sunday afternoon doing this as your hobby.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 11:09am

Arthur Daley wrote:

Not much going on with your life to spend a Sunday afternoon doing this as your hobby.

52 Sundays in a year. Frank was only here for one of them . One Sunday hardly constitutes a hobby. Very poor attempt at having a dig at someone. Try harder.

Dannyriver · 31-08-2018 11:11am

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Not much going on with your life to spend a Sunday afternoon doing this as your hobby.

Hobby suggests something that happens on a continuum, cant see it ever being a hobby, in fact I doubt the pontiff will be back for a long long time since this visit was such a PR disaster for them

Trasna1 · 31-08-2018 11:29am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Protection of children should be their first priority but it's the Catholic church.

Then it wouldn't be logical to confess it in confession if you knew the priest was obliged to inform the civil authorities.
Their argument is that if they hear it in confidence in the confessional they can convince the person to hand themselves in, or own up. If they don't hear about it they can't do anything.

EyesClosed · 31-08-2018 11:32am

Trasna1 wrote: »

Then it wouldn't be logical to confess it in confession if you knew the priest was obliged to inform the civil authorities.
Their argument is that if they hear it in confidence in the confessional they can convince the person to hand themselves in, or own up. If they don't hear about it they can't do anything.

The words logical and confession should never been in the same sentence.

jmayo · 31-08-2018 11:33am

Strazdas wrote: »

Just been looking at the RTE ratings for last weekend

Average of 535,000 viewers watched the full Papal Mass from Phoenix Park with a peak audience of 1.1m viewers.

Average of 379,000 viewers watched the four hour Festival of Families event at Croke Park on RTE2 on Saturday evening, with a peak audience of 570,000 viewers.

Those figures are pretty decent, probably higher than people might have anticipated.

I was channel surfing on saturday night and found it on BBC NI, then spotted it on RTE1/2, then found it on Sky News.
I kept switching back and over to check it was same translator.
Then watched for a bit to check out how the stadium looked.
Thankfully didn't come across the Daniel O'D part.

I haven't a fecking idea what he was talking about, but he had some family from somewhere on stage at one point.

Have to say Croker looked okish in the dark, but the corporate box section came across as too bright.
Overall I think it looked better for the opening of Special Olympics.

So do I count as one of the zealous viewers even if watched just about 15 minutes of it ?

Fighting Tao · 31-08-2018 11:34am

Trasna1 wrote: »

Then it wouldn't be logical to confess it in confession if you knew the priest was obliged to inform the civil authorities.
Their argument is that if they hear it in confidence in the confessional they can convince the person to hand themselves in, or own up. If they don't hear about it they can't do anything.

The RCC:

3-monkey-see-no-evil-hear-no-evil-speak-no-evil-ipad-23-case.jpg

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 11:34am

Trasna1 wrote:

Then it wouldn't be logical to confess it in confession if you knew the priest was obliged to inform the civil authorities. Their argument is that if they hear it in confidence in the confessional they can convince the person to hand themselves in, or own up. If they don't hear about it they can't do anything.

Even outside of the confessional they stayed quiet about abuse. So that bs doesn't wash.

ELM327 · 31-08-2018 11:42am

jmayo wrote: »

s.

So do I count as one of the zealous viewers even if watched just about 15 minutes of it ?

You count as 5 of them, as you flipped over and back.
Knowing the propaganda machine that is RtÉ I wouldnt be surprised

31-08-2018 11:48am

Trasna1 wrote: »

Hardly a surprise when Catholics consider the seal of the confessional absolutely sacrosanct.

And value it above the safety of little children. Disgusting.

ArmaniJeanss · 31-08-2018 11:54am

Flying Fox wrote: »

And value it above the safety of little children. Disgusting.

In fairness it's a card you could only play once (telling the police what was heard in the confession box). Once word got out via the first court case that the confessional was no longer sacrosanct then no-one would ever tell the priest anything like this in confession.
So it's not as if it would save lots of children from abuse.

Dannyriver · 31-08-2018 11:57am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In fairness it's a card you could only play once (telling the police what was heard in the confession box). Once word got out via the first court case that the confessional was no longer sacrosanct then no-one would ever tell the priest anything like this in confession.
So it's not as if it would save lots of children from abuse.

Am saving one kid is far more important than the confessional remaining sacrosanct...Im sure you ll agree. If not why not ?

ohnonotgmail · 31-08-2018 11:58am

ELM327 wrote: »

You count as 5 of them, as you flipped over and back.
Knowing the propaganda machine that is RtÉ I wouldnt be surprised

that is not how TAM ratings work. They are not counting people actually watching. They have a representative panel of tv viewers and extrapolate their viewing into the viewing figures that are released.

EyesClosed · 31-08-2018 12:02pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that is not how TAM ratings work. They are not counting people actually watching. They have a representative panel of tv viewers and extrapolate their viewing into the viewing figures that are released.

I don't think that was meant to be taken seriously

31-08-2018 12:08pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In fairness it's a card you could only play once (telling the police what was heard in the confession box). Once word got out via the first court case that the confessional was no longer sacrosanct then no-one would ever tell the priest anything like this in confession.
So it's not as if it would save lots of children from abuse.

Maybe not loads but possibly some.

If these priests really believe the teachings of their church then they need to go to confession to be absolved of their sin. The alternative is burning in hell. Ridiculous obviously, but this is the church's teaching.

ELM327 · 31-08-2018 12:11pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that is not how TAM ratings work. They are not counting people actually watching. They have a representative panel of tv viewers and extrapolate their viewing into the viewing figures that are released.

Sorry, I was joking.
Then the data extrapolated is only as accurate as the panel of people who are selected

ohnonotgmail · 31-08-2018 12:17pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Sorry, I was joking.
Then the data extrapolated is only as accurate as the panel of people who are selected

That is true but they've been doing it for a very long time and should be pretty good at it by now.

ArmaniJeanss · 31-08-2018 12:25pm

Dannyriver wrote: »

Am saving one kid is far more important than the confessional remaining sacrosanct...Im sure you ll agree. If not why not ?

I don't particularly want to get into that, the 'if it saves one then whatever the price is it's worth paying' is a bit of a dead end debate.

What the Church/priests should do is make absolution dependent on the penitent actually going to the authorities, e.g., no more 'say 3 Hail Marys and you are forgiven', instead 'you are forgiven but only if you go to the police and explain it to them and let them decide if theres a criminal case to answer'.
I think (as a happy agnostic I'm far from an expert on church matters) that this might already be the case for some crimes like murder.

Dannyriver · 31-08-2018 12:32pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I don't particularly want to get into that, the 'if it saves one then whatever the price is it's worth paying' is a bit of a dead end debate.

What the Church/priests should do is make absolution dependent on the penitent actually going to the authorities, e.g., no more 'say 3 Hail Marys and you are forgiven', instead 'you are forgiven but only if you go to the police and explain it to them and let them decide if theres a criminal case to answer'.
I think (as a happy agnostic I'm far from an expert on church matters) that this might already be the case for some crimes like murder.

That Im afraid is the only debate when it comes to what you have suggested. For you to avoid it with a platitude like 'dead end debate' is disingenuous.

Never forget Lord Denning's quote regarding whether the Birmingham six should be given a retrial

'If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous… That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, ‘It cannot be right that these actions should go any further’.”

Once the institution/system wrongly sacrifices someone for the good of the system the system is in need of overhaul/undemocratic and corrupt, that s not a dead end argument.

So who's going to see the Pope?

Comments