P_1 wrote: » Something that I haven't seen discussed here yet. What are people's opinions on this. Sadly it seems Graham Linehan has gone fully to bat on the side of those who disgraced themselves at London Pride.
To me this is dangerous and quite worrying seeing some of the stunts are being pulled. Is it a little englander thing a la Brexit or is it part of a wider schism within the LGBTQ+ movement?
One eyed Jack wrote: » I don’t agree that they did disgrace themselves at London Pride to be honest. Some people still regard Pride as a protest rather than a celebration, and lesbian feminists should protest, because they have little to celebrate if they allow themselves to be spoken down to, condemned and patronised by transgender advocates. It’s part of a wider schism within the LGBTQ+ movement, and it’s a schism that’s only going to get wider as each group separately lobbies for social and political representation and recognition, rather than being dismissed by the greater majority who imagine they hold all the power, as ‘little englanders’.
P_1 wrote: » I'm sorry but if peoples rights to exist are being challenged and dismissed then you damn well believe I will challenge them and call their actions a disgrace. Trans people are people. Full stop. Also if you think trans people or their advocates hold all the power then with the greatest of respect, you are delusional
One eyed Jack wrote: » I don’t think anyone is challenging anyone’s right to exist (undoubtedly that person does exist, clearly, there’s no right necessary to acknowledge that fact), but rather they are challenging among a host of other ideas - - the right of people who are transgender to identify themselves as women (or indeed as men, as in the example by b&c) - the right of lesbian women to identify themselves as women, who are only interested in women. I think it’s more a question of competing rights being in conflict rather than any suggestion of questioning whether someone exists or not. Clearly they do, and I don’t think it’s delusional to acknowledge that transgender advocates absolutely do imagine they hold all the power right now over ‘TERFs’. You can hardly deny that when the organisers of the protest were roundly condemned by some people within the LGBT community for their actions, but there was little or nothing in the way of criticism from the wider feminist community, which was unusual in itself as one would almost have expected they’d be all over that. Awkward shuffles.
P_1 wrote: » Can both rights not coexist?
One eyed Jack wrote: » There are a number of what I would consider legitimate concerns that feminist lesbian women absolutely have every right to be concerned about that warrant consideration -
JackTaylorFan wrote: » You seem to be deliberately confusing and conflating all feminist lesbians with TERFs, but okay. Just to be clear, I know many "feminist lesbians women" and they all denounce TERFs as the trash they are. And to be honest, your continued attempts to push TERF agenda on here, and to speak on their behalf is both transparent and laughable.
Edit: And for every ridiculous anti-transgender biased weblink you can find I can find one that says the exact opposite - https://www.them.us/story/lesbians-join-the-fight-against-terfs
One eyed Jack wrote: » Just indeed to be absolutely crystal clear - did you just use the token “I know a token someone who agrees with my point of view” to support your lack of an argument?
One eyed Jack wrote: » To be even clearer, I have no interest whatsoever in feminism of any description
One eyed Jack wrote: » Well at least that’s a better attempt than your last effort where the author initially attempted to claim Storm DeLarverie was transgender, until it was pointed out to the author in the comments that she sure as hell wasn’t. Then tell me again there’s no attempt to erase lesbian women from having their place in history like it’s not just another example of misogyny and lesbophobia.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » Nope. No idea. I think you have me confused with someone else, dear. I am sure since attacking transwomen on the internet seems to be your favourite pastime it gets kinda confusing and hard to keep up with whom you are arguing with, but I assure you, this latest callback is completely lost on me; I literally have never even heard of the aforementioned person you speak of until right this moment.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » https://sites.psu.edu/womeninhistory/2016/10/23/the-unsung-heroines-of-stonewall-marsha-p-johnson-and-sylvia-rivera/https://mic.com/articles/121256/meet-marsha-p-johnson-and-sylvia-rivera-transgender-stonewall-veterans How language evolves with time and understanding.
Finally, when a police officer clubbed a butch lesbian named Stormé DeLarverie over the head for saying that her handcuffs were too tight, a violent riot broke out and the crowd exploded. They could no longer stand silently and watch members of their community be assaulted and unjustly imprisoned for their sexuality. Edit: In the first version of this post, I said that a drag queen was clubbed over the head by the police, sparking the rioting. Thanks for reader Logan for pointing out that it was in fact Stormé DeLarverie who was clubbed for saying her handcuffs were too tight.
Transgender: (adj.) denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender. Transvestite: (n.) a person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes traditionally worn by the opposite sex. Drag Queen: (n.) a man who dresses up in women’s clothes, typically for the purposes of entertainment. Note: at the time of the Stonewall riots, the gay community did not have the same extensive vocabulary to describe sexuality as we do today. Marsha and Sylvia were transgender women, but primarily referred to themselves as drag queens or transvestites, which have separate meanings today. Transvestite is now considered a derogatory term.
One eyed Jack wrote: » The first link in your own post, not the second one that doesn’t work - And when the author has already suggested that drag queens then would be referred to as transgender today, I would say that was rather convenient if you’re gonna rewrite history to support your own narrative -
JackTaylorFan wrote: » So let me get this straight: you are now attempting to appropriate things said in a random comment section to me? Okay...
JackTaylorFan wrote: » But I don't know what, if any, good a discussion on TERFs here is going to do anyone. I'm not really interested in hearing or arguing the merits of their "concerns" either, because, quite frankly, it's just hate speech and fear-mongering when you boil it down.
One eyed Jack wrote: » They could potentially co-exist of course as rights being recognised in a legal sense, but I don’t think anyone would actually be either interested or satisfied with that outcome, and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t be satisfied with it either. There are a number of what I would consider legitimate concerns that feminist lesbian women absolutely have every right to be concerned about that warrant consideration -Feminists Clash with Transgenders at London Pride Parade
baby and crumble wrote: » My issue with TERFs is that they basically disagree that trans women are women, or that trans men are men (although that last bit gets mixed up sometimes, poor babas seem confused). They also seem to think that transitioning weakens their position as women or something. I still can’t wrap my head around that one. Of course in theory anyone has the right to protest for what they believe but also there’s a time and a place. Fundamentalist transphobic/ homophobic protestors would likely be quickly moved on from protesting at Pride, yet because the protestors were queer themeselves it’s ok? Nope. It’s LGBT pride, the T needs to be protected. And if they have the “right” to assert that trans women aren’t women then I have the right to tell them they aren’t true feminists. Not one feminist (or to push it further, not one lesbian feminist) I know these days agreed with those protestors at London Pride. Tbh I’ve gotten huge grief from TERFs online. They seem so angry. I don’t understand how one group of people obtaining rights could possibly undermine another.
P_1 wrote: » Erm how and why? Not being obtuse but out of all the feminists of all orientations that I know and count among my friends from everywhere between Dublin, Belfast, Manchester, London, Boston, Los Angeles and everywhere in between, not a single one follows that logic.If you are cis female and are only attracted to other cis females there is no issue there whatsoever. Nobody is threatening that whatsoever. Quite why such an issue has suddenly developed in what appears to be a very small minority of people who are twisted the equality message of feminism is quite beyond me.
One eyed Jack wrote: » You’d be forgiven for being unaware of it, but it’s absolutely not true to suggest that nobody is threatening the rights of lesbian women to decide for themselves whom they consider potential sexual partners.
baby and crumble wrote: » Show me. Show me where there is more than an odd comment here and there on a weird online board or on social media.
One eyed Jack wrote: » The term cotton ceiling is used to identify what some transgender activists have identified among lesbian women as a reluctance to include people who are transgender in their sexual communities.
splinter65 wrote: » Is it not the case that all lesbians including those who have fought hard to stop the violence visited on women by men, are being asked to accept that anyone can now self identify not only as a woman but as a lesbian? As a straight woman I have no problem understanding how in particular feminist lesbians would feel very threatened by that notion. Especially when your own extended community is telling you that you must accept this without question.
One eyed Jack wrote: » You’d be forgiven for being unaware of it, but it’s absolutely not true to suggest that nobody is threatening the rights of lesbian women to decide for themselves whom they consider potential sexual partners. It’s developed into such an issue simply because lesbian women just like straight women didn’t speak up about issues which affected them, instead deferring to a more submissive position in society under men. Women who identify as feminists are generally concerned with promoting women’s equality and empowering women to be able to speak up for themselves and support each other, and that’s why you’re hearing about it now, and it has been going on long, long before the stunt they pulled at London Pride. I expect this is their turn as women and as lesbians to say that they aren’t interested in playing a submissive role for transgender politics either.
P_1 wrote: If you are cis female and are only attracted to other cis females there is no issue there whatsoever. Nobody is threatening that whatsoever.
baby and crumble wrote: If the reason you don't fancy any transwomen is because you don't view transwomen as women FULL STOP then yeah, your assertion is transphobic. Of course it is. Nobody should be forced into sexual activity with someone they are not attracted to (or anyone, obviously) and I just can't see these assertions that women are being guilted into being attracted as having real life merit. Being told your transphobic beliefs are transphobic isn't bullying.
Adrian Few Medicine wrote: » I was told I was scum and 'I should just die already' when I was pressured into answering a question about genital preference that was nobody's business. This was at a gathering for queer women. I honestly don't think it's transphobic that I accept transwomen as women but have no interest in sex involving a penis no matter whom it's attached to. This was the crux of the discussion by the way, I didn't bring it up nor would I ever, I would never assume what someone has or hasn't and I don't think it defines their gender. But it definitely defines if I'm going to engage in a sexual relationship with them and there is rhetoric creeping in that that's not okay. Surely as LGBTQ people we should be encouraging consent not coercion. It doesn't make you not a lesbian if you're cool with a woman no matter the genitals, but it also doesn't make you transphobic if you do have a preference. I tried read all I could on the matter at the time, and the TERFs prey on that. A lot of the discourse sounded reasonable and then suddenly bam you get to transwomen are not women/transmen are not men territory. I knew to click away at that point but a lot of people probably don't and get sucked in. I worry about the two extreme voices shouting the loudest and vulnerable people, trans or cis, getting caught up in it when I think most people aren't so filled with bile.
Adrian Few Medicine wrote: » I was told I was scum and 'I should just die already' when I was pressured into answering a question about genital preference that was nobody's business. This was at a gathering for queer women.
baby and crumble wrote: It's all a bit weird really to have so many people fixated on gentials. What ones do you have, what ones to you not like, what ones would you allow smush up into yours...
