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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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Comments

  • #1592
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    I hear Leo is asking Frank for the church's cooperation into any investigation into any abuse that happened. Frank's willingness or lack thereof should be telling. The Vatican has an opportunity to open its files and a chance to obtain some form of redemption.
    Will they seize that chance? The past suggests not.


  • #1593
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Pints? wrote: »
    And if it's common knowledge they have these records why aren't the authorities getting a warrant for them? Which legally they could as the church can't withold information on criminal case. They're not in the confession box

    A warrant...thats a joke right?
    You do realise the Vatican is seen as an actual state/country right?

    Ireland can no more get a warrant to get Vatican records then the UK Government can get a warranty to get Irish government records.

    For the third time, stop showing yourself up, its laughable at this stage


  • #1594
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Cabaal wrote:
    For the third time, stop showing yourself up, its laughable at this stage

    Ah let him at, rarely does one see someone dig such a deep hole in such a short time frame.


  • #1595
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Cabaal wrote: »
    A warrant...thats a joke right?
    You do realise the Vatican is seen as an actual state/country right?

    Ireland can no more get a warrant to get Vatican records then the UK Government can get a warranty to get Irish government records.

    For the third time, stop showing yourself up, its laughable at this stage

    I'm just not prejudiced is all. Enjoy Hitler youth!


  • #1596
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Pints? wrote:
    I'm just not prejudiced is all. Enjoy Hitler youth!


    Ironically the former pope Benny was a member of the Hitler jungen.


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  • #1597
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Pints? wrote: »
    I'm saying abuse and cover up definitely happened. I'm suggesting the authorities aren't particularly good at their jobs if all the evidence they need to convict the Pope is in the Vatican and is so known that even random posters on boards know where it is. Maybe they just haven't been told where it is. You've clearly got evidence to take down the church. Report to your nearest garda station

    I, thankfully, do not have any direct evidence. What I have is the reports from the various investigations. The latest of which from PA in the US, is pretty shocking even when we know so much already.

    I also have seen the recent letter from the pope acknowledging that the CC has failed in many aspects in the issue of child abuse and the cover up.

    There is clearly a case to be answered by those in positions of authority, be it the Garda, the local TD etc, and I am at a loss as to why more has not been done.

    But I think the CC still holds a significant amount of power. 500k people is a significant amount of voters, the Vatican is still extremely powerful. I wouldn't let the CC do anything in Ireland if I had my way, but alas there is a significant amount of people that are so devoted to the CC that my voice would be drowned out. Whatever the protests are this weekend, they will be dwarfed by the numbers attending the masses etc.


  • #1598
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    Pints? wrote: »
    Leroy42 wrote: »

    I don't believe that that is true. I think that a majority of people in this country, of all religions and none, would put child protections and the stopping of cover ups ahead of their membership of an organisation

    Child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with their organisation. It's not as if you have to abuse a few kids to join. If so then I'd protest.
    Huh??

    A live one here.


  • #1599
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    Pints? wrote: »
    Leroy42 wrote: »

    I don't believe that that is true. I think that a majority of people in this country, of all religions and none, would put child protections and the stopping of cover ups ahead of their membership of an organisation

    Child abuse and cover ups have nothing to do with their organisation. It's not as if you have to abuse a few kids to join. If so then I'd protest.
    Huh??

    A live one here.


  • #1600
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,672 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Hold on a second. Are you agreeing that abuse and cover up has taken place in the CC and asking why the authorities aren't been held to account?

    Or are you claiming that since the authorities haven't acted (in your opinion) then you don't believe it happened or if it did it wasn't as big as some people think and certainly not due to the actions of the church itself?

    Probably the latter. That's certainly what the other poster "Irish Kings" was at anyway, with his spamming fake questions. Not sure why they're allowed to get away with it, TBH.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #1601
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I, thankfully, do not have any direct evidence. What I have is the reports from the various investigations. The latest of which from PA in the US, is pretty shocking even when we know so much already.

    I also have seen the recent letter from the pope acknowledging that the CC has failed in many aspects in the issue of child abuse and the cover up.

    There is clearly a case to be answered by those in positions of authority, be it the Garda, the local TD etc, and I am at a loss as to why more has not been done.

    But I think the CC still holds a significant amount of power. 500k people is a significant amount of voters, the Vatican is still extremely powerful. I wouldn't let the CC do anything in Ireland if I had my way, but alas there is a significant amount of people that are so devoted to the CC that my voice would be drowned out. Whatever the protests are this weekend, they will be dwarfed by the numbers attending the masses etc.

    Completely agree.
    I don't think everyone attending the popes mass are in favour of him. Some are curious. Some are on the edge 're whole thing and want to see what he has to say


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  • #1602
    Pints?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭Pints?


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Ah let him at, rarely does one see someone dig such a deep hole in such a short time frame.
    Not as deep as the hole you'd bury all Catholics in Adolf


  • #1603
    beans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭beans


    Putting the 'God' in 'Godwin' :D


  • #1604
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Pints? wrote: »
    Completely agree.
    I don't think everyone attending the popes mass are in favour of him. Some are curious. Some are on the edge 're whole thing and want to see what he has to say

    Whether they agree or not is irrelevant. The numbers that show up will taken taken as support for the CC. People will, in years to come, only report on the number of people that attended, they won't break it down.

    It seems odd to me that anyone would want to hear what he has to say or have a closer look at him. We know where he stands, where the organisation he has lived almost his entire life in service to stands.

    If, by now, people do see that the words of the CC mean nothing, they can only be judged on their actions, then I really don't know.

    Let them open all the files, put up with whatever investigations need to be undertaken, pay for the counciling of these impacted by abuse, set up new centres, operated independently, to heal the wounds.

    Come back when they have rooted out each and every person that had knowledge of abuse or cover up, but failed to act. But we all know that cannot happen. Because the very people that could make it happen, the Pope, cardinals etc, are the very people that facilitated it to happen in the first place.

    For them the CC comes before anything else. The victims, the state, the law, morals, even God. CC must be protected. That is how they have been brought up. They cannot be the solution. It is almost unfair to ask that they would be as it would involve such a monumental change in their thinking.


  • #1605
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Pints? wrote:
    Not as deep as the hole you'd bury all Catholics in Adolf


    You clearly know nothing of the links the CC had with NAZI's. Step away from the shovel.


  • #1606
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Pints? wrote: »
    Completely agree.
    I don't think everyone attending the popes mass are in favour of him. Some are curious. Some are on the edge 're whole thing and want to see what he has to say

    Some (most) are pensioners and elderly who were (wrongly) brought up belieivng the RCC was flawless in it's actions. Expect the average age to be up in the 60's, any children present may not be there of their own free will.

    Bear in mind Francis is hundreds of times more likeable that the last German pope, if it was Benny it wouldn't be nearly as much interest Meanwhile...

    Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has said the majority of victims of clerical child abuse have yet to come forward and he called for a more supportive judicial system to assist them.

    He said the number of victims in Ireland was “immense” due to the many roles the Catholic Church played over many years.

    And the Archbishop of Armagh said the church faced a challenge in finding new ways of communicating “sincerely held perspectives” about the family.

    “In the aftermath of child abuse scandals and other shameful episodes of the past, there are those who feel they can no longer trust our message, perhaps because they have been directly hurt and betrayed in their families by their experience of Church, or because the revelations of such heinous crimes have shocked them to the core.”


  • #1607
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    You clearly know nothing of the links the CC had with NAZI's. Step away from the shovel.
    Getting desperate now with the auld revisionism.


  • #1608
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Mattie McGarth suggesting Mary McAleese is making people sick and tried and should get off the stage. He neglected to mention he is part of an international grouping of Catholic legislators going to meet Frank. No bias there. Personally I'm happy for her to keep highlighting the failings of the CC pity though it took so long but better late than never.


  • #1609
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    I hear Leo is asking Frank for the church's cooperation into any investigation into any abuse that happened. Frank's willingness or lack thereof should be telling. The Vatican has an opportunity to open its files and a chance to obtain some form of redemption.
    Will they seize that chance? The past suggests not.
    The evidence suggests that past failing at digging out coverups is more due to disorgansiation and limited central power and knowledge rather than mal intent.


  • #1610
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    A few posters have raised the question as to those in the CC have not be hold to account by the state.

    I think the latest statement from Mattie McGrath, where is basically tells the Ex President of Ireland to shut up, shows why. There are still plenty of people in higher positions that are very much in thrall to the CC. Remember the sweet heart deals that FF gave the CC when the abuse was coming to light. The clear aim was to protect the church, even if that meant costing the state.


  • #1611
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Omar Orange Ignoramus wrote: »
    And the Archbishop of Armagh said the church faced a challenge in finding new ways of communicating “sincerely held perspectives” about the family.
    ”[/I]

    On that note,
    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180823/281496457138367

    One in three Irish families don't fit the church's traditional definition of what a family actually is.

    So in the church's view, these family's aren't actually family's
    :rolleyes:

    So a bunch of men who deny themselves marriage, a relationship with another man/women, having children and as such will never ever have a family (unless they break Canon law) decide what a family is.


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  • #1612
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    An_Toirpin wrote:
    Getting desperate now with the auld revisionism.


    Revisionism suggests making up stuff or being obtuse. I suggest like the other lad you learn some of your church's history. There was a 'railroad' which passed through the Vatican that helped senior NAZI's make it out of Europe at the end of WWII. The CC also signed a concordate with the NAZI regime before the war.


  • #1613
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    An_Toirpin wrote:
    The evidence suggests that past failing at digging out coverups is more due to disorgansiation and limited central power and knowledge rather than mal intent.


    You are suggesting the church is bad at record keeping? Ever been to the Vatican?


  • #1614
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Mod: Pints? is threadbanned. Please stop responding to his posts


  • #1615
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote:
    Mod: Pints? is threadbanned. Please stop responding to his posts


    Sound so.


  • #1616
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    The evidence suggests that past failing at digging out coverups is more due to disorgansiation and limited central power and knowledge rather than mal intent.

    Which is why the Bishop up in Down was 'removed' from service, just earlier this year?

    Not only did he have knowledge, but also acted improper by celebrating Mass for the paedo Fr.Finegan.

    The temporary replacement Canon Brown is now helping authorities with an ongoing investigation into this, as think he worked along side Finegan in local schools.
    Then along came Bishop Boyce, (already criticised for his handling of clerical sex abuse allegations when he was Bishop of Raphoe 2011).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44483333

    It's more to do with 'improper action' and 'non-reporting of existing knowledge'.


  • #1617
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Revisionism suggests making up stuff or being obtuse. I suggest like the other lad you learn some of your church's history. There was a 'railroad' which passed through the Vatican that helped senior NAZI's make it out of Europe at the end of WWII. The CC also signed a concordate with the NAZI regime before the war.
    Read a history book. History is my forte.



    The Vatican was perhaps the first state in western Europe to slam the nazis state with the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, when the UK and others were trying to placate them with concessions.


  • #1618
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,832 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Interesting that Fr. Martin got a standing ovation today. That might answer the 9,500 who signed a petition for him to be uninvited.


  • #1619
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    An_Toirpin wrote:
    Read a history book. History is my forte.


    Seems you got short changed but hey you have already been called out on some ridiculous nonsense you have posted here. The rest of your comment is more of the same.


  • #1620
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    The evidence suggests that past failing at digging out coverups is more due to disorgansiation and limited central power and knowledge rather than mal intent.

    Ah you're back. You disappeared twice when I asked you questions on Smyth, Brady and the oath of secrecy.
    "I will never directly or indirectly, by means of a nod, or of a word, by writing, or in any other way, and under whatever type of pretext, even for the most urgent and most serious cause (even) for the purpose of a greater good, commit anything against this fidelity to the secret, unless a...dispensation has been expressly given to me by the Supreme Pontiff."

    THIS is the oath of secrecy the child victims of paedophile priest Brendan Smyth were told to sign during their meetings with Cardinal Sean Brady 35 years ago.

    Crimen Solicitationis, the Latin for 'Crime of Solicitation', is a secret 1962 Vatican document which only came to light in recent years. It instructed bishops how to handle allegations of sex abuse against priests in their diocese and set out an oath of secrecy.

    All those involved in the 1975 investigation into Smyth, Cardinal Brady --
    then a 36-year-old priest -- the children who had been abused and Smyth himself, were required to sign the oath. To break the vow would lead to excommunication from the Catholic Church. The document was written by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, then prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, previously known as the Inquisition.

    It was only to be circulated among bishops and it demanded that all parties to an investigation keep a "perpetual silence".

    Scripted in dense legal language, the document sets out the steps to be taken for investigating crimes of solicitation against priests.

    Once the tribunal has reached its conclusion, it lays out a number of different courses. If there is no foundation to the allegations, all documents relating to the accusation must be destroyed.

    mal intent indeed.

    I don't expect you to reply. Just adjust the blinkers a bit more.


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  • #1621
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Read a history book. History is my forte.



    The Vatican was perhaps the first state in western Europe to slam the nazis state with the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, when the UK and others were trying to placate them with concessions.

    You previously said shaming in relation to sex was uncommon in Ireland... All Irish historians would disagree with that. Must get to work on your forte!


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