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How are 3 teams so dominant in inter county hurling over such a sustained period of t
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20-08-2018 11:14pm#1Kilkenny, Tipperary, Cork
Sorry if this has been discussed before but after the final yesterday I went looking up the roll of honor. Those 3 teams have won the vast vast majority of finals over the years. Limerick are fourth most successful in the country with 8 wins. You would imagine teams/counties would rise and fall but these 3 are so dominant throughout the history of the GAA.0
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Because they are the best in it,and a system at a time when fewer matches would win you an all Ireland.
With the latest changes in the hurling scene with Galway into Leinster since 09 and the new league format for the provincial finals and AI series you will still have the big three winning it but I think a lot more teams can win it now with this format.
There is only a puck of the ball in it now between most teams in it now as a rising tide lifts all boats.
You could say the new modern era of hurling has started in the last ten years.0 -
Plus they are single sport counties more or less. Cork have half a million people. Tipp 150,000 but noted athletes always and great temperament. Kilkenny are well Kilkenny. When cricket was huge they were the best at that aswell. Limerick always had the rugby since the late 1800s and the hard luck stories and weight of Mick Mackey and the first superstar GAA team just was too much for so long. Everyone else like Wexford.. Clare and Waterford and Dublin...well more reasons or excuses I'm sure...Limericks 1 yesterday was worth some amount.0
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I would love to see the great Waterford team of 2002 - 2007, the great Cork team of the early 2000s vs the Kilkenny team from 2006 - 2010 all playing each other now. Cork were an absolutely brilliant team to watch when they were in full flow. Fitness wise I’d say teams from that era would be blown out of it now. Probably only Cork were big into their fitness back then (nothing compared to now) but I think skill wise those three teams will never be surpassed. Those Waterford v Cork games from 2003 - 2007 were by far the best games I’ve ever seen and I don’t think I’ll see better than the 2004 Munster Final or the 2007 drawn All Ireland Quarter Final. They were epic games and it’s a pity those great teams and great players are just memories now. The game has evolved and we’ll never see players and characters like those from that era again.
In relation to periods of dominance, I don’t think we’re going to see one particular team take over and dominate like Kilkenny did or like Dublin are doing now in the football. Since 2013, the gap between Kilkenny and the rest began to shorten but it took a long time for it to end. Now, I believe we’ve the most competitive hurling Championship in my lifetime and it’s a real throwback to the mid 1990s. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Waterford, Clare or Wexford go very close next year. Kilkenny will be back challenging again, Tipperary will be back and of course Limerick, Cork and Galway will be fancying themselves again. This year will be very hard to surpass but I think 2019 whilst maybe it won’t be as exciting, it will be even more competitive. Realistically speaking, there’s probably no more than 3 points separating any of the 7 counties that can realistically win the All Ireland.
Credit to Limerick yesterday, they were more than deserving of their win. Thankfully nothing has been made of the Galway comeback in the media. I was hoping I wouldn’t be reading “Lucky Limerick hang on” etc. they were miles better than Galway yesterday but they caught Galway on an off day. It would have been some 70 mins if Galway were firing. It was a flat enough game for 65 minutes but I was delighted to see Limerick do it. Their win should inspire the other counties crying out for a bit of success. 2019 can’t come quick enough.0 -
Hurling isn't a sport that will grow on this island, all these football parishes won't start hurling clubs, why would you risk injuries? Hurling will never have strength in Ulster any time soon. I've only ever been to one hurling game in my life, Armagh v Roscommon in 2007, I've never seen my county play hurling. The only places where it seems to be growing is Derry city because I suppose people encourage the children to play the most "Irish" game, the Derry team have a few players from Derry city which is rare on the football side of things.0
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LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »Hurling isn't a sport that will grow on this island, all these football parishes won't start hurling clubs, why would you risk injuries? Hurling will never have strength in Ulster any time soon. I've only ever been to one hurling game in my life, Armagh v Roscommon in 2007, I've never seen my county play hurling. The only places where it seems to be growing is Derry city because I suppose people encourage the children to play the most "Irish" game, the Derry team have a few players from Derry city which is rare on the football side of things.
Your probably right but there are counties that can get up there, Wexford Dublin and Offaly seem like they could get to the top for various reasons, they all have hurling tradition of some description. Geographically it’s unlikely to spread much though.
Just to be clear when I say to the top I’m not suggesting winning AIs anytime soon but competing higher than they are and maybe eventually competing for AIs in real terms.0 -
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LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »Hurling isn't a sport that will grow on this island, all these football parishes won't start hurling clubs, why would you risk injuries? Hurling will never have strength in Ulster any time soon. I've only ever been to one hurling game in my life, Armagh v Roscommon in 2007, I've never seen my county play hurling. The only places where it seems to be growing is Derry city because I suppose people encourage the children to play the most "Irish" game, the Derry team have a few players from Derry city which is rare on the football side of things.
Interesting post. I always suspected that hurling would be a hard sell to ulster and connaught where football has bedded in. It certainly will take decades for that to change if ever. However Dublin and the greater Dublin counties is another story and there is huge potential here. Hurling spreads very slowly. I think the roll of honor proves that. But it is growing.0 -
Because they are the best in it,and a system at a time when fewer matches would win you an all Ireland.
With the latest changes in the hurling scene with Galway into Leinster since 09 and the new league format for the provincial finals and AI series you will still have the big three winning it but I think a lot more teams can win it now with this format.
It's funny that you mention the round robin as an advantage to counties which appear to be less strong naturally. In almost any sport it is traditionally argued that elongated campaigns militate against those teams and that knockout gives more chance of an upset. In hurling, in the long run, long campaigns should suit counties that, over the long run, produce more good hurlers. That would suggest that the new format should make it more difficult for teams outside the usual suspects to win.
There might be other reasons for expecting that into the future a lot more counties will win it but I would think the format is not one of them.0 -
Hurling in the greater Dublin region is growing well. Kildare and Meath are getting slowly more competitive and Wicklow should be back to 8 senior teams in a couple of years. Lots of work being done at juvenile level.0
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Just had a quick look there the 3 counties have won 93 out of the 131 championships so it is definitely biased towards those 3 who have between them won it on average 3 out of 4 times, or 1 each every 4 years on average.
Limerick as said are next but well back.
In football Dublin and Kerry have won it 64 times between them or approx in in 2 times or 1 each every 4 years on average.
So hurling isn't any less competitive than football really, it's heavily weighted in both towards the elite.
I'd say cork are next in football but way back a bit like Limerick hurling.
Talking historical results of course0 -
Davys Fits wrote: »Interesting post. I always suspected that hurling would be a hard sell to ulster and connaught where football has bedded in. It certainly will take decades for that to change if ever. However Dublin and the greater Dublin counties is another story and there is huge potential here. Hurling spreads very slowly. I think the roll of honor proves that. But it is growing.
Unfortunately hurling will always be a hard sell in Dublin too, despite the recent success in 2011 & 2013. The footballers will always be the bigger draw and talented dual athletes (Diarmuid Connolly, Cormac Costello, Ciaran Kilkenny, Con O'Callaghan for example) will continue to pick football, if that is where their heart lies, or they want to have a decent chance of winning silverware.0 -
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Unfortunately hurling will always be a hard sell in Dublin too, despite the recent success in 2011 & 2013. The footballers will always be the bigger draw and talented dual athletes (Diarmuid Connolly, Cormac Costello, Ciaran Kilkenny, Con O'Callaghan for example) will continue to pick football, if that is where their heart lies, or they want to have a decent chance of winning silverware.
That might change once the current senior team comes to the end of the road. Underage and colleges football in Dublin is behind hurling, which has never been the case before. Also the virtual ending of dual players from an early age might end the loss of the sort of players you refer to if they are on good hurling teams.
This year's championship proved that seniors are not a million miles off but same can be said of top 8/9 teams. Be interesting to see if Gilroy can introduce a more ruthless approach from football compared to years of abysmal failures.
Daly changed that mindset to a great extent as did Lar for a year or two but it has never lasted once the footballers get on a roll.0 -
I dont think you'll see the big 3 dominate any time soon- the odd one here and there
Coaching is good now from club to county to schools to colleges. Players now have every chance to develop.
Structure is the key word here. I'd say from the foundation of the GAA to about 2000- the development of young players was sub standard- now its professional almost at U14 level. The warm ups- fitness, stick work is tuned to such a fine level.
Hurling wont grow any time soon in ulster and cannaught- its just not realistic. The numbers arent' there and its not pushed0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »Plus they are single sport counties more or less. Cork have half a million people. Tipp 150,000 but noted athletes always and great temperament. Kilkenny are well Kilkenny. When cricket was huge they were the best at that aswell. Limerick always had the rugby since the late 1800s and the hard luck stories and weight of Mick Mackey and the first superstar GAA team just was too much for so long. Everyone else like Wexford.. Clare and Waterford and Dublin...well more reasons or excuses I'm sure...Limericks 1 yesterday was worth some amount.
Difficult to see Cork as a single sport county...hurling, football, soccer, rugby are all big in Cork, basketball,rowing,boxing and athletics are pretty well supported too. I know my local GAA, Rowing and soccer clubs all try to tie in together where there are clashes in fixtures, both adult and under age.0 -
Because at any point in the sports history hurling has only played properly in about 10 counties, so it's been fairly easy for the top counties to dominate due to lack of competition.0
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Lack of competition in football too as Kerry and Dublin have won the most by miles0
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Funny to think that Limerick have been the 4th most successful team in Hurling and still only won 2 AIs in 78 years0
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The_Kew_Tour wrote: »Lack of competition in football too as Kerry and Dublin have won the most by miles
Spread of counties is much bigger in football.
The last new hurling winner were Offaly in 1981.
Since then 4 different first time football winners have emerged.
Add to that the number of teams who haven't won all ireland but have been genuinely competitive by getting to all ireland semi/quarter finals at various stages and the spread is much bigger in football.0 -
Niles Crane wrote: »Spread of counties is much bigger in football.
The last new hurling winner were Offaly in 1981.
Since then 4 different first time football winners have emerged.
Add to that the number of teams who haven't won all ireland but have been genuinely competitive by getting to all ireland semi/quarter finals at various stages and the spread is much bigger in football.
Spread is little better but it's not huge.
19 Teams have won a Football AI
13 in Hurling.
Ulster and Connaught teams had teams decades without winning AIs0 -
The_Kew_Tour wrote: »Spread is little better but it's not huge.
19 Teams have won a Football AI
13 in Hurling.
Ulster and Connaught teams had teams decades without winning AIs
Yeah but outside of the winning look at the spread of teams who get to All Ireland quarter finals and onwards for the last 25 years and pretty much for all of hurling's history it's been the same 10 counties that play against each other over and over again.
Since the qualifiers were introduced on 2001
All the counties in Connacht apart from Leitrim have got to an all ireland quarter final (Leitrim go to a semi final in 1994)
5 of the 6 counties in Munster have got to an all Ireland quarter final.
All counties in Ulster apart from Antrim
6 counties in Leinster (Offaly got to a semi final in 1997)
Over a 20/25 year period 75% - 80% of counties will get to an all ireland quarter finals in football whereas the teams in the quarter finals onwards in hurling are the same 10 counties over and over again.0 -
I also should mention that a lot of clubs don't have the facilities to have hurling clubs, the pitches are used for all the underage football teams, the seniors and the ladies training sessions, you would need to have another training field which some clubs can't afford.
That reminds me of a joke some people play on a man who owns a field beside the pitch, they pretend to measure up the field doing foot paces and he comes out shouting.0 -
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Niles Crane wrote:Yeah but outside of the winning look at the spread of teams who get to All Ireland quarter finals and onwards for the last 25 years and pretty much for all of hurling's history it's been the same 10 counties that play against each other over and over again.Niles Crane wrote:Since the qualifiers were introduced on 2001 All the counties in Connacht apart from Leitrim have got to an all ireland quarter final (Leitrim go to a semi final in 1994) 5 of the 6 counties in Munster have got to an all Ireland quarter final. All counties in Ulster apart from Antrim 6 counties in Leinster (Offaly got to a semi final in 1997)Niles Crane wrote:Over a 20/25 year period 75% - 80% of counties will get to an all ireland quarter finals in football whereas the teams in the quarter finals onwards in hurling are the same 10 counties over and over again.
The sucess in both codes is dominated by a couple of counties. Most counties are starved of provincial and All Ireland sucess in both codes. A handful of counties in both codes have had consistent sucess over the decades. There isnt a big gap in unsucessful counties between hurling and football as people think. In hurling in terms of provincial and All Ireland sucess , the sucessful counties over the decades have been kilkenny Cork Tipperary Galway Wexford Limerick Clare and Waterford ( With Tipp Cork and kilkenny really being sucessful consistently over the decades since Independence in 1920s). In football the sucessful counties consistently over decades haves been Kerry Dublin Galway Meath Cork Down Tyrone and Mayo( With Kerry Dublin Galway Meath and Cork really being sucesful consistently sucessful over the decades since Independence).
But in football there are strong football counties with great tradition great club great supporters but lack as much sucess as most of hurling counties.
Munster
limerick have not won Munster senior title or an All Ireland senior football title in 120 year. limerick have never won national league div 1 title
Clare have never won a football All Ireland senior title and have won 1 Munster senior football title in 90 years. Clare have never won national league div 1 title
Tippearey havent won a Munster senior football title in over 80 years. Tipp have never won national league div 1 title
Waterford have never won Football All Ireland senior title or national league div 1 title. And Waterford havent won Munster senior football title in 120 years.
Connacht
Sligo have never won All Ireland football senior title or reached a final and have won 2 Connacht titles in 90 years and never won national league div 1 title
Leitrim have never won All Ireland senior title or reached a final or national league div 1 title. Leitrim have won 2 Connacht titles in 120 years.
Roscommon havent won All Ireland senior football title in over 70 years. Roscommon have reached 1 All Ireland football senior final in 55 years.
Mayo havent won an All Ireland football senior title in over 70 years
Ulster
Monaghan have never won an All Ireland senior football title and reached 1 final in over 90 years ago
Antrim have never won an All Ireland senior title and havent won Ulster senior football title in over 70 years
Cavan havent won All Ireland senior football title or reached a final in over 70 years. Cavan have won 1 Ulster football senior title in 50 years
Fermanagh have never won an Ulster senior title
leinster
Wexford have not won a football All Ireland senior title in 100 years and not won national league division 1 final and havent won a leinster senior title in 70 years
Carlow have never won an All Ireland senior football title or national league div 1 title and havent won a leinster football senior title in over 70 years
Wicklow have never won Leinster senior football title
Westmeath have never won All Ireland senior football title or reached a final or won national league division 1 final. Westmeath have won 1 leinater football senior title in 100 years
Laois have never won an All Ireland senior football title and have won 1 leinster football title in 60 years.
Kildare havent won All Ireland football senior title in 90 years and reached 1 All Ireland football final in 90 years. kildare have never won a national league div 1 title and have won 2 leinster senior football titles in 60 years
longford have never won an All Ireland senior title or reached a final. longford have won 1 leinster title in 120 years
Louth havent won All Ireland senior title or leinster in over 60 years. louth have never won national league div 1 title
Thats 21 counties out of 32 that have been starved of All Ireland sucess and most of them have been starved of provicial sucess over all in football. A handful of hurling counties have dominated hurling. A handful of football counties have dominated football.0 -
Your probably right but there are counties that can get up there, Wexford Dublin and Offaly seem like they could get to the top for various reasons, they all have hurling tradition of some description. Geographically it’s unlikely to spread much though.
Just to be clear when I say to the top I’m not suggesting winning AIs anytime soon but competing higher than they are and maybe eventually competing for AIs in real terms.
Reading somewhere that Dublin lost twenty all Ireland senior titles last in 1961 won six, its amazing how much teams like Galway even kilkenny lost 20, 26, other counties like Wexford lost 11.0 -
C__MC wrote:I dont think you'll see the big 3 dominate any time soon- the odd one here and there
I dunno. 1 (or 2) swallows doesn't make a summer. The last 2 years have been great and it's great to have new winners. But Tipp and Cork have shared the last 5 Munster senior championships. 8 of the last 10. More successful now than their historical average.
Last 4 Munster minor championships shared between them too and both in an u21 final. That's pretty dominant.
Cork are a player or two away from AI success with a young team that could win a good few. Tipp may be on the wane still have such fire power to do damage over the next 2 or 3 years with pretty successful minors coming down the lines and a decent u21 team this year. They put the right man in charge they'll be one of the favourites every year.
Kilkenny granted are at their lowest point in 20 years. That will be interesting as I think Galway need a competitive Leinster championship. The biggest pity with the new format is that as it stands Leinster is such an easy run for the same 3. Dublin the only ones in their way and will need to topple at least 2 of the 3 to make it through I think.
All in all I still wouldn't be surprised if the big 3 win 50% plus of the next few championships but they could also lock the rest out too.
Sunday was the best hurling day of my life bar none. I'm still on cloud 9. Still hoarse. But I'm also level headed enough to know that the big 3 are waiting in the long grass. That back to back All Irelands is very difficult to achieve and that nobody will fear either ourselves or Galway next year, definetly not any of Kilkenny, Cork or Tipperary. Its going to be an interesting one in 2019. Hopefully as great as this year's ending with a Limerick back to back.0 -
arctictree wrote: »Hurling in the greater Dublin region is growing well. Kildare and Meath are getting slowly more competitive and Wicklow should be back to 8 senior teams in a couple of years. Lots of work being done at juvenile level.
We are? There's little evidence of that.
Meath won 1 game from 6 in the Minor+ U21 Hurling this year against fellow "tier 2" teams.
Our Seniors beat Kerry in Navan in April 2017, and have lost the next 7 championship games on the trot, most being heavy defeats. We've finished in last place both years we've been in the SHC group.
It wouldn't be a popular opinion, but I always reckoned Meath simply overachieved in 2016 winning the CR by playing out of their skins. People thought that simply by beating Antrim we instantly became a Liam MacCarthy standard team, which we clearly aren't.0 -
It's a snowball effect sometimes. When a team does well it generates interest and more kids take it up therefore the talent pool is deeper. It's like in the 90's every second kid had an Irish soccer jersey on, fast forward to 2018 they all have rugby jerseys on. In the 90's the nearest rugby club for kids to me was about 15kms away now there's 3 within 5kms.0
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Hurling is very strongly embedded in a relatively small region of the country where it was always played.0
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The sucess in both codes is dominated by a couple of counties. Most counties are starved of provincial and All Ireland sucess in both codes. A handful of counties in both codes have had consistent sucess over the decades. There isnt a big gap in unsucessful counties between hurling and football as people think. In hurling in terms of provincial and All Ireland sucess , the sucessful counties over the decades have been kilkenny Cork Tipperary Galway Wexford Limerick Clare and Waterford ( With Tipp Cork and kilkenny really being sucessful consistently over the decades since Independence in 1920s). In football the sucessful counties consistently over decades haves been Kerry Dublin Galway Meath Cork Down Tyrone and Mayo( With Kerry Dublin Galway Meath and Cork really being sucesful consistently sucessful over the decades since Independence).
But in football there are strong football counties with great tradition great club great supporters but lack as much sucess as most of hurling counties.
Munster
limerick have not won Munster senior title or an All Ireland senior football title in 120 year. limerick have never won national league div 1 title
Clare have never won a football All Ireland senior title and have won 1 Munster senior football title in 90 years. Clare have never won national league div 1 title
Tippearey havent won a Munster senior football title in over 80 years. Tipp have never won national league div 1 title
Waterford have never won Football All Ireland senior title or national league div 1 title. And Waterford havent won Munster senior football title in 120 years.
Connacht
Sligo have never won All Ireland football senior title or reached a final and have won 2 Connacht titles in 90 years and never won national league div 1 title
Leitrim have never won All Ireland senior title or reached a final or national league div 1 title. Leitrim have won 2 Connacht titles in 120 years.
Roscommon havent won All Ireland senior football title in over 70 years. Roscommon have reached 1 All Ireland football senior final in 55 years.
Mayo havent won an All Ireland football senior title in over 70 years
Ulster
Monaghan have never won an All Ireland senior football title and reached 1 final in over 90 years ago
Antrim have never won an All Ireland senior title and havent won Ulster senior football title in over 70 years
Cavan havent won All Ireland senior football title or reached a final in over 70 years. Cavan have won 1 Ulster football senior title in 50 years
Fermanagh have never won an Ulster senior title
leinster
Wexford have not won a football All Ireland senior title in 100 years and not won national league division 1 final and havent won a leinster senior title in 70 years
Carlow have never won an All Ireland senior football title or national league div 1 title and havent won a leinster football senior title in over 70 years
Wicklow have never won Leinster senior football title
Westmeath have never won All Ireland senior football title or reached a final or won national league division 1 final. Westmeath have won 1 leinater football senior title in 100 years
Laois have never won an All Ireland senior football title and have won 1 leinster football title in 60 years.
Kildare havent won All Ireland football senior title in 90 years and reached 1 All Ireland football final in 90 years. kildare have never won a national league div 1 title and have won 2 leinster senior football titles in 60 years
longford have never won an All Ireland senior title or reached a final. longford have won 1 leinster title in 120 years
Louth havent won All Ireland senior title or leinster in over 60 years. louth have never won national league div 1 title
Thats 21 counties out of 32 that have been starved of All Ireland sucess and most of them have been starved of provicial sucess over all in football. A handful of hurling counties have dominated hurling. A handful of football counties have dominated football.
But again, those counties have had relative degrees of success i.e getting to AI quarter finals, the difference is the same 10 teams are rotating constantly in the quarter finals in hurling whereas in football there is always a surprise team every now and then and basically every county has some hope of getting far in the championship which is not the case in hurling.0 -
Niles Crane wrote:But again, those counties have had relative degrees of success i.e getting to AI quarter finals, the difference is the same 10 teams are rotating constantly in the quarter finals in hurling whereas in football there is always a surprise team every now and then and basically every county has some hope of getting far in the championship which is not the case in hurling.
Reaching quarter finals is not real sucess. Winning trophies and competitions in any sport is the true measurement of sucess. And when you compare both codes a handful of teams have dominated. Look at this
In the last 100 years in hurling 3 counties have won 71 of the All Irelands eg Kilkenny Cork and Tipp
In the last 100 years in football 6 counties have won 74 of the All Irelands eg Kerry Dublin Galway Meath Cork and Down.
So in 100 years in hurling where you have maybe 10 to 11 hurling counties, 3 counties have won over 70% of the All Irelands.
While in 100 years in football where you have 32 counties, 6 counties have won over 70% of the All Irelands.
People seem to think hurling is dominated by a few counties. Football has also.
Ulster teams sucess in the last 25 years with first wins for Derry Donegal Tyrone and Armagh and a sucessful period in leinster football between 95 to 04 when Meath Dublin kildare Offaly Laois and Westmeath winning leinster, gives a false imprsssion of many counties having broad sucess.
The fact is outside Ulster many counties have been starved of sucess for decades. Even in Ulster Cavan and Antrim , the aristocrats of Ulster football have been in the doldrums for 70 plus years. While Connacht has only won 2 All Irelands in over half century of footballWhile take out kerry and Cork in Munster, the rest of the counties are nearly 100 years from their last real sucess. Clares win in 1992 was the only victory outside the big two in Munster in generations.
In leinster take out Dublin and Meath (and Offalys 20 year sucessful period 1961 to 82). The rest of the counties in leinster are starved of all Ireland sucess and have not really being sucessful at provicial level in over 70 plus years.
Thats three out of the 4 proviences where only handful of counties have being winning Sam consistently for generations and winning provicial titles consistently.. And up to 1990 Ulster football was way behind leinster and Munster football. Football had had similar enough tends to hurling trends in terms of sucessful counties. In that a handful of counties have dominated both codes.0 -
It could be as simple as hurling is a really, really difficult sport to master.
Any decent athlete can be made into a decent footballer, but if you don't grow up playing hurling you won't ever get within a million miles of the guys who grow up with hurls as extensions of their arms in Kilkenny, Tipperary, North Cork, South Galway etc. It would take decades of work, and a remarkable sporting culture change, for a county with traditionally little hurling to be able to compete against counties with such rich hurling heritage.0 -
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Reaching quarter finals is not real sucess. Winning trophies and competitions in any sport is the true measurement of sucess. And when you compare both codes a handful of teams have dominated. Look at this
In the last 100 years in hurling 3 counties have won 71 of the All Irelands eg Kilkenny Cork and Tipp
In the last 100 years in football 6 counties have won 74 of the All Irelands eg Kerry Dublin Galway Meath Cork and Down.
So in 100 years in hurling where you have maybe 10 to 11 hurling counties, 3 counties have won over 70% of the All Irelands.
While in 100 years in football where you have 32 counties, 6 counties have won over 70% of the All Irelands.
People seem to think hurling is dominated by a few counties. Football has also.
Ulster teams sucess in the last 25 years with first wins for Derry Donegal Tyrone and Armagh and a sucessful period in leinster football between 95 to 04 when Meath Dublin kildare Offaly Laois and Westmeath winning leinster, gives a false imprsssion of many counties having broad sucess.
The fact is outside Ulster many counties have been starved of sucess for decades. Even in Ulster Cavan and Antrim , the aristocrats of Ulster football have been in the doldrums for 70 plus years. While Connacht has only won 2 All Irelands in over half century of footballWhile take out kerry and Cork in Munster, the rest of the counties are nearly 100 years from their last real sucess. Clares win in 1992 was the only victory outside the big two in Munster in generations.
In leinster take out Dublin and Meath (and Offalys 20 year sucessful period 1961 to 82). The rest of the counties in leinster are starved of all Ireland sucess and have not really being sucessful at provicial level in over 70 plus years.
Thats three out of the 4 proviences where only handful of counties have being winning Sam consistently for generations and winning provicial titles consistently.. And up to 1990 Ulster football was way behind leinster and Munster football. Football had had similar enough tends to hurling trends in terms of sucessful counties. In that a handful of counties have dominated both codes.
I would disagreee with that.
I consider competitiveness to be competing and progressing through a competition not actually winning.Monaghan have been a very competitive side in the last 10-15 years while at the same time only getting to an all ireland semi final once, however nobody would dispute that they have been competitive in the championship.0 -
wherearewe45 wrote: »Kilkenny, Tipperary, Cork
Sorry if this has been discussed before but after the final yesterday I went looking up the roll of honor. Those 3 teams have won the vast vast majority of finals over the years. Limerick are fourth most successful in the country with 8 wins. You would imagine teams/counties would rise and fall but these 3 are so dominant throughout the history of the GAA.
well they are traditional hurling counties
But stats are misleading where Tipp are concerned - when one considers the last 50 years
Tipp have only won 6 in the last 50 years so they are not that dominant - conversely Kilkenny have Cork have won it 20 and 10 times respectively so much more dominant than Tipp.
Galway have won 4 in that time so Tipp aren't exactly tipping the scales.
Limerick have only won 3 in the last 80 years.0 -
the problem is that hurling and football are team sports.
if you take an indevidual sport like boxing , athletics etc the best player will beat the lesser players and work their way up
if if some county got a great hurler like kerry it wouldnt change how bad they are. you need the rest of the team to be fairly good aswell.
its very hard for any county to get all those player together at the same time let alone a county that hasnt thousands of players to pick from.
the big day gets to a lot of the smaller counties. a lot of those counties havnt got to the final in a lifetime . that gets into their heads and they are behind before they start. if you take the top 3, they are all used to big games with 70,000+ people watching.
look at the mayo curse, thats as good as another player to the other team0 -
well they are traditional hurling counties
But stats are misleading where Tipp are concerned - when one considers the last 50 years
Tipp have only won 6 in the last 50 years so they are not that dominant - conversely Kilkenny have Cork have won it 20 and 10 times respectively so much more dominant than Tipp.
Galway have won 4 in that time so Tipp aren't exactly tipping the scales.
Limerick have only won 3 in the last 80 years.
In fairness, I'm not from Tipp, Kilkenny or Cork but I have heard that 50 year stat thrown around and it doesnt mean anything anymore. If the overall stats are misleading then so is the 50 year stat.
Tipp went what, 18 years without an AI, Cork have currently gone 13 and counting. Theyve still dominated Munster historically and also recently and still have more AIs than any other Munster county in recent history.
Why take 50 years to prove 1 team hasnt been dominant and dismiss the previous 10, 20 or 70 odd years before that?
Why not 60 years, what relevance does an All Ireland won in 1968 have over one won in 1958? If you go back 60 years in stead of 50 I think Cork and Tipp have won the same amount (11 AIs each).
Since the start of the Hurling Championship Tipp, Cork and Kilkenny have been dominant.
In Munster terms in the last 60 years Tipp and Cork have won pretty much the same amount of Munsters and the same amount AI's.
But in reality recent form matters most.
In the last 30 years (the length of time where the vast majority of current players have been alive) again they have won pretty much the same amount of Munsters and AI's (10 Munsters each, 5 AIs for Tipp, 4 for Cork)
Since the turn of the millenium they again have won about the same amount of Munsters and AI's (7 Munsters each, 3 AIs for Tipp, 2 for Cork)
In the last 10 years they have won 8 out of 10 Munsters (5 for Tipp, 3 for Cork) between them and Tipp are the only Munster county to have won multiple AIs.
Christ, Limerick, Clare and Waterford have only managed 5 Munster titles and 2 AIs beween them in 20 years!!
So yes, it is Kilkenny, Cork and Tipp the big 3 and its up to us to chase them down and stop that dominance. Unfortunately we havnt been doing a very good job at it at all. Hopefully this year is the start of a few good years for us, but as we know (Clare 2013) that is not always the case.0 -
well 50 years is half a century - no other reason for picking it than that0
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I think when people say things like "tradition counts for a lot" or variations of that to explain why the traditional counties dominate it's really a short hand for some counties have the right structures in place to be successful.
For me, that means a large pool of underage players being coached well and ultimately coming into a competitive system. Having a lot of players isn't enough, they need to be coached well from their earliest underage sessions (I mean skills wise, not win at all counts). Then when they get to secondary school ideally they would be in a decent school with good coaching and move up into Harty/Fitzgibbon etc. There's no real mystery to it, but it's very hard to do. You need the facilities, the coaches, the schools, the numbers etc.
The Clare win in 2013 and Limerick's win this year (how sweet it is to say that) were based largely on a very narrow age range of players, would make you wonder if other counties could do likewise? With the money in Dublin in GAA you'd have to think they will get their structures great someday soon.0 -
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letsseehere14 wrote:Why take 50 years to prove 1 team hasnt been dominant and dismiss the previous 10, 20 or 70 odd years before that? Why not 60 years, what relevance does an All Ireland won in 1968 have over one won in 1958? If you go back 60 years in stead of 50 I think Cork and Tipp have won the same amount (11 AIs each).
I think 50 years is a good range to look at any sport. Its half a century and probaly u r looking at two or three or more generations of teams or players. 100 year period to examine takes in all the teams since the Independence of Irish state. So if u look at 100 year period 1918 to 2018, it is also a good range for GAA past anaylsis . Prior to 1920s how competitive and how organised was GAAs All Ireland championship, when you had Britian controlling the country, revolution ( The Land War, 1916) War of Independence and Civil War. GAA prior to 1920s , it hard to no the worth of those teams and wins. They are important as they created the GAA tradition. But the organisation was in its infancy. Actually not til probaly 1940s those gaelic football becomes more organised, more competitive and more popular and more a national game. Hurling takes of in 1930s with players like Mick Mackey
In terms of 50 years its a very good way to anaylsis Tipp hurling. Ur basically looking at every Tipp team and players they have produced since they produced their greatest team ever and one of the greatest hurling teams ever, the Tipp team of early to mid 60s. So a period 1968 to 2018 is the era afterward they produced one of the greatest teams ever and it show Tipp for all their tradition, a great hurling county since that great team of 60s Tipp have underachieved ,especially in terms of All Ireland sucess. Tipp have basically won 1 All Ireland every decade. Tipp won 1 All Ireland in the 70s, They won 1 All Ireland in 80s, 1 All Ireland in the 90s , 1 All Ireland in the 00s and 2 All Irelands in this decade. Up to this decade Offaly had won as many All Irelands as Tippearey between 1970 to 2010. ( Offaly 81 85 94 98, Tipp 71, 89, 91, 01). Prior to the 1970s Tipp were the top hurling and kilkenny were a distant third. Since the 60s Kilkenny have become top dog in hurling with a couple of All Irelands in 70s , 2 in a row in the 80s and 90s and off course the 10 All Ireland won under Cody. Tipp are a distant third behind Cork and particularly the Cats in last half century.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »With the money in Dublin in GAA you'd have to think they will get their structures great someday soon.
Dublin now have good structures in place but the problem they have is that Dublin is not like the likes of Clare, Galway and Cork where one part of the county favours hurling at club level and the other part favours football
In Dublin most clubs are dual code with football being the big brother so the best players tend to be pushed towards football at club and county level.0 -
I think 50 years is a good range to look at any sport. Its half a century and probaly u r looking at two or three or more generations of teams or players. 100 year period to examine takes in all the teams since the Independence of Irish state. So if u look at 100 year period 1918 to 2018, it is also a good range for GAA past anaylsis . Prior to 1920s how competitive and how organised was GAAs All Ireland championship, when you had Britian controlling the country, revolution ( The Land War, 1916) War of Independence and Civil War. GAA prior to 1920s , it hard to no the worth of those teams and wins. They are important as they created the GAA tradition. But the organisation was in its infancy. Actually not til probaly 1940s those gaelic football becomes more organised, more competitive and more popular and more a national game. Hurling takes of in 1930s with players like Mick Mackey
In terms of 50 years its a very good way to anaylsis Tipp hurling. Ur basically looking at every Tipp team and players they have produced since they produced their greatest team ever and one of the greatest hurling teams ever, the Tipp team of early to mid 60s. So a period 1968 to 2018 is the era afterward they produced one of the greatest teams ever and it show Tipp for all their tradition, a great hurling county since that great team of 60s Tipp have underachieved ,especially in terms of All Ireland sucess. Tipp have basically won 1 All Ireland every decade. Tipp won 1 All Ireland in the 70s, They won 1 All Ireland in 80s, 1 All Ireland in the 90s , 1 All Ireland in the 00s and 2 All Irelands in this decade. Up to this decade Offaly had won as many All Irelands as Tippearey between 1970 to 2010. ( Offaly 81 85 94 98, Tipp 71, 89, 91, 01). Prior to the 1970s Tipp were the top hurling and kilkenny were a distant third. Since the 60s Kilkenny have become top dog in hurling with a couple of All Irelands in 70s , 2 in a row in the 80s and 90s and off course the 10 All Ireland won under Cody. Tipp are a distant third behind Cork and particularly the Cats in last half century.
Look I dont mean to come across as a jerk about this going on and on and I'm only picking on this because trying to blur the lines around the top teams success in an attempt to show that it has been more competitive over recent years is a fruitless endeavour, trying to show that hey us 'smaller' counties have been just as successful as one of the big 3 is I feel dishonest. By trying to frame it that Tipp havent been a top 3 for 50 years or that say Cork havent been for the last 13 years is just not true.
50 years is a completely arbitrary time span with regards to hurling, just because it is a nice round number doesnt give it any significance. Look at it this way:
In the last 10 years Kilkenny have won 5 AIs, Tipp 2 and Cork 0. Does that mean Cork are no longer one of the big 3? After all only Kilkenny and Tipp have won multiple AIs in that period and Cork have won none for 13 years and counting.
What about the last 20 years? Kilkenny have won 11 AI, Cork and Tipp 3 each. Does that mean its only a big 1 now?
How about the last 30 years? Kilkenny have won 13, Cork 4 but Tipp 5. Does that mean Tipp and Kilkenny are the top 2 ahead of Cork? 30 years is a long time after all.
Taking any of these spans of time is the same as taking 50 years like has been done above, and each time a different result is shown. How can 50 years have been taken and used as evidence that its a big 2 when if you take 60 years (not really any different) and it shows a different picture.
The only things that should be looked at is overall roll of honour which clearly shows a big 3, and recent success which also shows that the same 3 counties are still dominant. Sure Tipp have nearly won as many Provincial and AI titles in recent years than all of the teams outside Cork, KK and Tipp combined. Trying to drag them back to the pack by picking random time spans blurs the fact that they are still dominant. We should be dragging them back to the pack by beating them on the field not by picking time spans that suits our narrative. That has not been happening through recent years.
P.S by pretty much disregarding titles won up to the end of the Civil War in 1923, you have belittled half of the AIs ever won by Limerick, Dublin or Wexford. Every AI ever won by Laois, London and Kerry. 1 of the 4 AIs ever won by Clare and 2 of their 6 Munster titles, and the only AI won by Galway prior to 1980.0 -
It could be as simple as hurling is a really, really difficult sport to master.
Any decent athlete can be made into a decent footballer, but if you don't grow up playing hurling you won't ever get within a million miles of the guys who grow up with hurls.
not always the case. Sean og o halpin started playing hurling when he was 11 and he was one of Corks best hurlers of all time you could argue. There were very few inter county players as good as him in his position.0 -
Does the good land argument hold any sway?
Former Cricket strongholds (KK and Tipp) is the other argument that always comes up when this question is posed.
Athough I never really subscribed to that theory.
Look at the 3 counties Provincial and League Title wins also, they're miles ahead of the pack.
There has to be some factor which caused this.0 -
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I don't know what it's like in other counties but go around kilkenny and you'll always see kids with a hurl in their hand, in the schools, in the fields, on the streets.. it sounds like a cliche but it's the truth0
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Thats 21 counties out of 32 that have been starved of All Ireland sucess and most of them have been starved of provicial sucess over all in football. A handful of hurling counties have dominated hurling. A handful of football counties have dominated football.
Those counties might not have enjoyed all Ireland success at senior level they have seen provincial success and reached the latter stages of the championship last 25 years
Clare got to an All-Ireland quarter final two years ago
Tipp an All-Ireland semi final 2 years ago (won minor All-Ireland in 2011 and under 21 all Ireland final in 2015)
Limerick did play in a number of Munster finals in the 00s
Sligo won connacht title in 2007 and reached finals in 2010, 2012 (which they lost by one or two scores), and 2015.
Leitrim won connacht in 94, connacht final in 2000
Roscommon were connacht champions last year
Mayo were all ireland finalists last year
Monaghan two recent ulster championships and all ireland semi finalists this year
Fermanagh AI quarter finalists in 2015, semi finalists in 2004
Cavan ulster title in 97
Wexford AI semi finalists in 2008
Laois Leinster champions
Kildare all Ireland finalists in 1998
Can you really say over past 20 years that Down and Derry have been more successful than Mayo e.g.
In hurling Galway are the only Connacht side to achieve anything of note. Roscommon did participate in a few 'Connacht finals' in the 00s but nearly all were facile. In ulster its only Antrim thats made a dent. In Leinster; Kilkenny, Offaly, Dublin, Wexford that have reached provincial or quarter finals and everyone in Munster aside from Kerry
So really if you break it down further its not as black and white as you made it out. Teams like Sligo have had success at provincial level winning a connacht title and beating Mayo and Galway multiple times as well as Tyrone in 2002 (who would win AI following year) and one kick of the ball away from beating Kerry in Killarney in 2009 with Kerry winning AI that year.0 -
well they are traditional hurling counties
But stats are misleading where Tipp are concerned - when one considers the last 50 years
Tipp have only won 6 in the last 50 years so they are not that dominant - conversely Kilkenny have Cork have won it 20 and 10 times respectively so much more dominant than Tipp.
Galway have won 4 in that time so Tipp aren't exactly tipping the scales.
Limerick have only won 3 in the last 80 years.
The stats aren’t misleading. The original post referred to the entire history of the game. You could make Offaly out to be an absolute giant of the game if you were to ignore the parameters in the original post and say they have 4 All Irelands since 1980 but it wouldn’t really reflect their situation either currently or historically. As for the Tipperary-Cork thing.......60 years ago Cork had three All Ireland more than Tipperary. The same stats applies today.0 -
Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »Hurling is very strongly embedded in a relatively small region of the country where it was always played.
Draw a line from South Galway through a part of Dublin down to Munster including North Kerry and you have your hurling stronghold.
Hurling region in Glens of Antrim and Ards Down too.
I love them hurling areas, the passion is phenomenal!0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »I think when people say things like "tradition counts for a lot" or variations of that to explain why the traditional counties dominate it's really a short hand for some counties have the right structures in place to be successful.
For me, that means a large pool of underage players being coached well and ultimately coming into a competitive system. Having a lot of players isn't enough, they need to be coached well from their earliest underage sessions (I mean skills wise, not win at all counts). Then when they get to secondary school ideally they would be in a decent school with good coaching and move up into Harty/Fitzgibbon etc. There's no real mystery to it, but it's very hard to do. You need the facilities, the coaches, the schools, the numbers etc.
The Clare win in 2013 and Limerick's win this year (how sweet it is to say that) were based largely on a very narrow age range of players, would make you wonder if other counties could do likewise? With the money in Dublin in GAA you'd have to think they will get their structures great someday soon.
The underage structures in Limerick are top class and playing numbers in Limerick underage are massive.
Majority of that team last week won AI titles with Ard Scoil Ris and Fitzgibbon cups with Mary I and UL.
I think that environment in Limerick coupled with kids seeing success now at Under 21 and Senior can keep Limerick in the mix big time over the next 10-15 years!
There is still the top 3, but Limerick, Galway and Clare are traditional in their own right too and are producing top class elite Inter County hurlers recently.0 -
You are picking out a couple of achievements counties have had over a couple of generations. If u win 1 or 2 titles in 50 or 60 years or longer or reach semi final once every 70 years that is not consistent sucess. That a county having a long famine without sucess broken up by 1 or 2 good years. Is not consistent sucess.rossie1977 wrote:Clare got to an All-Ireland quarter final two years ago Tipp an All-Ireland semi final 2 years ago (won minor All-Ireland in 2011 and under 21 all Ireland final in 2015) Limerick did play in a number of Munster finals in the 00s
Yes Clare got to a q final, but Clare have won 1 Munster title in 90 years.
Yes Tipp reached semi final, there only semi final in over 70 years.
Yes limerick reached Munster final in 00s, but they still havent won Munster title in 120 years.rossie1977 wrote:Sligo won connacht title in 2007 and reached finals in 2010, 2012 (which they lost by one or two scores), and 2015. Leitrim won connacht in 94, connacht final in 2000 Roscommon were connacht champions last year Mayo were all ireland finalists last year
Yes Sligo won Connacht in 07, but only their second title in 120 years.
Leitrim won Connacht in 94, but only their second title in 120 years.
Roscommon win Connacht last year and have won Connacht titles every 10 years or so in Connacht , but Roscommon have not won an All Ireland since World War 2 and have played in 1 senior All Ireland final in 55 years.rossie1977 wrote:Monaghan two recent ulster championships and all ireland semi finalists this year Fermanagh AI quarter finalists in 2015, semi finalists in 2004 Cavan ulster title in 97
Yes Monaghan won 2 Ulster titles recently , but they have not played in an All Ireland final in 90 years. Only in last few years they had their first win in Croker in 80 years.
Yes Cavan won Ulster in 97, but it is their only Ulster title in 50 years. Cavan have not won a championship match in Croker in over 50 years.rossie1977 wrote:Wexford AI semi finalists in 2008 Laois Leinster champions Kildare all Ireland finalists in 1998
Yes Wexford reached semi final in 08, but Wexford have not won a leinster title or beaten Dublin in the championship in 70 years. Wexford have not won All Ireland in 100 years.
Laois won leinster in 03. But that is their only leinster title in 60 years.
Kildare reached All Ireland final in 98, but that is their only All Ireland final appearance at senior in 90 years. Kildare have won 3 leinster titles in 65 years.rossie1977 wrote:Can you really say over past 20 years that Down and Derry have been more successful than Mayo e.g.
No I never said that. But until Mayo win Sam, Down still have 5 All Irelands and Derry 1 All Ireland won , since Mayo won their last title 70 years ago.
My point is yes counties have had sucess. But the sucess is an odd year now and again. Actually the sucess is usually 1 or two sucessful years in a couple of generations. If u win 1 title in half century eg Cavan. You cannot honestly say that team has been consistently sucessful. There has been a small handful counties consistently sucessful over the decades. The rest which is the majority have had 1 or two years of sucess in 50 or 60 or 70 years. And most of those years of sucess are at provicial level, not at All-Ireland level.0 -
Good Post Above.
Kinda shows that these counties only have succes once in Blue Moon0 -
You are picking out a couple of achievements counties have had over a couple of generations. If u win 1 or 2 titles in 50 or 60 years or longer or reach semi final once every 70 years that is not consistent sucess. That a county having a long famine without sucess broken up by 1 or 2 good years. Is not consistent sucess.
Yes Clare got to a q final, but Clare have won 1 Munster title in 90 years.
Yes Tipp reached semi final, there only semi final in over 70 years.
Yes limerick reached Munster final in 00s, but they still havent won Munster title in 120 years.
Yes Sligo won Connacht in 07, but only their second title in 120 years.
Leitrim won Connacht in 94, but only their second title in 120 years.
Roscommon win Connacht last year and have won Connacht titles every 10 years or so in Connacht , but Roscommon have not won an All Ireland since World War 2 and have played in 1 senior All Ireland final in 55 years.
Yes Monaghan won 2 Ulster titles recently , but they have not played in an All Ireland final in 90 years. Only in last few years they had their first win in Croker in 80 years.
Yes Cavan won Ulster in 97, but it is their only Ulster title in 50 years. Cavan have not won a championship match in Croker in over 50 years.
Yes Wexford reached semi final in 08, but Wexford have not won a leinster title or beaten Dublin in the championship in 70 years. Wexford have not won All Ireland in 100 years.
Laois won leinster in 03. But that is their only leinster title in 60 years.
Kildare reached All Ireland final in 98, but that is their only All Ireland final appearance at senior in 90 years. Kildare have won 3 leinster titles in 65 years.
No I never said that. But until Mayo win Sam, Down still have 5 All Irelands and Derry 1 All Ireland won , since Mayo won their last title 70 years ago.
My point is yes counties have had sucess. But the sucess is an odd year now and again. Actually the sucess is usually 1 or two sucessful years in a couple of generations. If u win 1 title in half century eg Cavan. You cannot honestly say that team has been consistently sucessful. There has been a small handful counties consistently sucessful over the decades. The rest which is the majority have had 1 or two years of sucess in 50 or 60 or 70 years. And most of those years of sucess are at provicial level, not at All-Ireland level.
You keep on defining success solely as winning I don't think that was the point that was being made by the poster you responded to or by me earlier.
In hurling you have 10 or so competitive counties and then there is a chasm between them and the rest where outside the top 10 there has been absolutely no chance of getting into the top ten and having a run at getting far in the championship.
In football you have a limited number of counties who can contend to win over any stretch of time but that group of counties changes all the time, in hurling the same 10 teams play against each other over and over again and it never changes.
For example in the 1990's Monaghan were terrible but since 2003 they have been a good side with regular appearances in the quarter finals and provincial titles being won.
About 20 different teams have played in all ireland football quarter finals in the last 10 years or so whereas in hurling it's the same 7 or 8 teams in this last while and it was those same 7 or 8 teams 50 years ago.0 -
The underage structures in Limerick are top class and playing numbers in Limerick underage are massive.
Majority of that team last week won AI titles with Ard Scoil Ris and Fitzgibbon cups with Mary I and UL.
I think that environment in Limerick coupled with kids seeing success now at Under 21 and Senior can keep Limerick in the mix big time over the next 10-15 years!
There is still the top 3, but Limerick, Galway and Clare are traditional in their own right too and are producing top class elite Inter County hurlers recently.
We can over emphasise the success of the academy in Limerick. Limerick has a jump on alot of counties in that rugby has shown the hurlers how to prepare professionally. Ard Scoil is an example..the hurlers could measure themselves in the gym off the rugby players. The overall emphasis on sport in Limerick in general is huge aswell. Then after saying all those positives..the very best young athletic talents play rugby in the city..and that's the way it always has been. So no one can rest on their laurels.0 -
In football I don't think picking up the odd provincial title in 100+ years where you only have 6 counties in Munster, 5 in Connacht, 9 in Ulster and 12 in Leinster represents any modicum of success at all.
Considering 1 or 2 all Ireland semis or an odd provincial win over that long period of time is more akin to throwing sh*t at a wall and getting lucky that a bit sticks than any indicator of success
Can't claim it makes for a balanced playing field at all.
It's just the nature of sport that the top dominating teams have an off year. Success is stopping that domination and I don't see it any more in football than I do in hurling0 -
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