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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    I honestly don't know if it was a crime or not. I think it is a serious question that would be good to run by a lawyer experienced in this area.

    So you think it's possible no actual crime was committed by those in the management of the Church in Ireland who conspired to pervert the course of justice and conceal crimes against children ? Yeah right.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    So you think it's possible no actual crime was committed by those in the management of the Church in Ireland. Yeah right.
    Well I don't know but I don't think the DPP has a conspiracy to protect clerics who endangered vunerable people. May be too little evidence also. Which is more plausible?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Well I don't know but I don't think the DPP has a conspiracy to protect clerics who endangered vunerable people. May be too little evidence also. Which is more plausible?

    So despite more and more evidence coming to light in the Irish media year in year out that Irish bishops attempted to pervert the course of justice and conceal criminal activity, there is in fact no evidence they did any such thing ?. hmmm. yeah. right. and not a single search warrent to search files and offices can be issued today ? lol yeah right. These Church / State apologist excuses are getting weaker and weaker.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    I found an interesting essay on this exact question by UCC's Centre for Criminal Justice and Human Rights.

    Murphy Report: Can a failure to protect be prosecuted?

    The following is a discussion of whether it is possible to prosecute those who failed to intervene in cases of child abuse in the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin. The material was first published in the November Edition of Firstlaw's Criminal Law Online Service.

    The Report of the Murphy Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin has understandably given rise to a huge level of public concern. The Report covers the period between 1975 and 2004 and essentially deals with two separate issues:
    1. An examination of the handling of sexual abuse complaints in the Archdiocese itself;
    2. Detailing the individual claims of abuse as against 46 individual Priests.
    The nature of the individual incidents of abuse outlined in the Report is deeply shocking. Many of the incidents have themselves given rise to criminal prosecutions and convictions in respect of particular complainants. However, the publication of the Report quickly gave rise to calls, particularly from victims groups, for a criminal investigation in respect of those parts of the Report which appeared to outline an unwillingness on the part of the Church authorities and/or State institutions to investigate complaints and prosecute them. This part of the Report gives rise to some very interesting questions in relation to the applicability of the Criminal Law in terms of the relationship between the Church and individual priests against whom complaints were made, and also the relationship between the Church and outside organisations and in particular An Garda Síochána.
    The hunger for prosecutions in respect of what has been described as a "cover up" is entirely understandable and in that regard the flames have been fanned to an extent by the immediate reaction of the Minister for Justice who was reported as saying
    "No Government can guarantee that in the future there won't be evil people who will do evil things, but the era where evil people could do so under the cover of the cloth, facilitated and shielded from the consequences by their authorities, while the lives of children were ruined by such cruelty is over for good. The bottom line is this: - a collar will protect no criminal."
    In so far as these remarks refer to individual perpetrators of abuse the remarks are uncontroversial; undoubtedly prosecutions for abusive activity have been brought and, having regard to the way in which ‘delay jurisprudence’ has developed in this jurisdiction, prosecutions may still be brought in the future notwithstanding the antiquity of any given allegation.
    However, the remarks of the Minister, and those of victims’ group One in Four fed into a wider public desire to see senior church figures punished for failures in the management of complaints and the management of priests against whom complaints had been made. What many members of the public now seem to want to know is whether representatives of the Church itself, who abused no one, but who may have known of abuse can be prosecuted for their failures identified in the Report. It must be said that while putting the avoidance of scandal above the welfare of children was a shocking policy choice it is difficult to see in practical terms how criminal prosecutions would be sustainable in relation to that.
    There has been much comment on the kinds of laws that may or may not have been breached and which could give rise to prosecution. Reckless endangerment of children has been mentioned in this context. However, this offence was created by the Criminal Justice Act 2006 and involves a situation where a person having authority or control over a child or abuser intentionally or recklessly endangers a child by causing or permitting that child to be placed or left in a situation which creates a substantial risk to the child of being a victim of serious harm or sexual abuse or fails to take reasonable steps to protect the child from such a risk while knowing that the child is in such a situation is guilty of an offence. While this would have undoubted applicability in circumstances where individuals known to have abused children were moved to other posts where access to children was unhindered, it is not an offence which has any retrospective application and in the context of the time period which the Murphy Commission was dealing is probably of little or no relevance.
    There are nonetheless numerous options available to the DPP should he wish to pursue criminal prosecutions including the possibility of conspiracy, the common law offence of perverting the course of justice and the common law offence of misconduct in public office. It would however require some ingenuity to pursue a case for the first two offences. It is difficult to see how conspiracy in a strict legal sense (an agreement to do an unlawful act or a lawful act by an unlawful means) could be proven in relation to decisions to move priests from particular locations or in relation to the failure to pass on information in relation to allegations to relevant authorities. The Law in this area has always sought to distinguish between a coincidence of actions and agreement and does not seek to punish those combining coincidentally towards achieving shared goals.
    The common law offence of perverting the course of public justice requires an act or course of conduct which has a tendency to, and is intended to, pervert the course of public justice. It does appear in general terms that a positive act is required and that inaction would be insufficient to constitute the offence. This offence could perhaps be made out where there was evidence to establish that the commission of an offence had been concealed and again is possibly made out where there is evidence to establish a conspiracy to obstruct An Garda Síochána. Putting the Police on a false trail might be a classic example of that.
    It seems that a failure to prosecute itself could not constitute the offence of perverting the course of public justice unless one was able to establish that the failure to prosecute was itself as a result of a corrupt inducement or of a reward or some other benefit. This would seem to be a necessary follow on from the fact that the decision to prosecute is itself a discretionary one vested in either the Director of Public Prosecutions and/or An Garda Siochana depending on the nature of the offence alleged.
    The option with the strongest chance of success is the common law offence of misconduct in a public office which was expanded in the English case of R. v. Dytham [1979] QB 722 to bring a prosecution against a police officer for failing to fulfil his obligations as an officer of justice to intervene in a savage beating that resulted in the death of one of the parties. The Lord Chief Justice in the Court of Appeal in Dytham made clear that the neglect of duty must be wilful and not merely inadvertent, and further that it must be culpable being without reasonable excuse or justification. The level of culpability had to be 'of such degree that the misconduct impugned is calculated to injure the public interest so as to call for condemnation and punishment.'

    Dytham was approved obiter by Mr. Justice Carney in the case of DPP v. Bartley (13 June 1997, unreported), High Court. The accused in this case was convicted of incest. However Justice Carney took the opportunity provided by the case to note that if a member of the Gardaí receives a credible complaint of a felony they are obliged to investigate it. The complainant in this case had approached the Gardaí when she was 12 ½ years old to complain about her stepbrother’s inappropriate behaviour. Her complaint was not taken seriously and she endured a further 25 years of sexual abuse.

    The offence of misconduct in public office could potentially be utilised beyond the Gardaí to pursue members of the Gardai who failed to act on information they received and potentially could be further expanded to prosecute Church officials who, by virtue of their position as heads of school boards, etc. held public office.

    Despite the clear applicability of this offence, the prosecution of the substantive offences themselves has caused great difficulty for both complainants and accused having regard to the time frame of the activities complained of. It would seem unlikely that prosecutions in relation to institutional failures from that same time period would have a realistic prospect of success.


    https://www.ucc.ie/academic/law/blogs/ccjhr/2009/12/murphy-report-can-failure-to-protect-be.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    I found an interesting essay on this exact question by UCC's Centre for Criminal Justice and Human Rights.

    https://www.ucc.ie/academic/law/blogs/ccjhr/2009/12/murphy-report-can-failure-to-protect-be.html

    A blog post opinion from 2009 (funded by who and requested for who ?) is now definitive state law and superceeds the Irish criminal justice system ? and nothing new has come out since 2009 then ? lol yeah right.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    No I couldn't. There is no Plumber cult that actively seeks to cover up the crimes of its members. Or accountants, or kitchen porters.

    Just to be sure, you are aware that this is not simply because priests raped and buggered and abused children. You do understand that the CC hierarchy actively went out to cover up the crimes? Whilst of course the likes of Brendan Smyth are terrible, in isolation they are terrible events that the person must be held accountable.

    But it involved way more than that. Across the world, the CC sought to cover up, silence the victims, degrade the victims, move priests around, not tell new parishes what was coming to them etc etc etc.

    One does not need to belong to an organization in order to abuse children. A lot of priests and lay Catholics are good people who find the notion of child abuse abhorrent. Trying to label the entire Catholic Church as a pedophile ring is no different to Hitler writing Mein Kampf or Hutus going on the radio and calling Tutsis cockroaches. Such behaviour is motivated by hate and the devil is at the core of that hatred.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    Water John wrote: »
    Very good article in today's Irish Examiner by Fergus Finlay as to why he'll be at the Garden of Rememberance.
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/fergus-finlay/instead-of-cheering-pope-in-phoenix-park-we-should-stand-with-peggy-473160.html

    This docu was on last Sat. My wife heard it in the car and switched it on in the house when she got home.

    People should note that people were not always cowed but challenged this Canon and broke into their church.
    The woman at the centre of this is still alive in a nursing home.


    water thank you for bringing us this, it is gut wrenching stuff. I feel each story is only like a single and and the church has a whole colony to deal with. They are not willing and do not want do deal with it and never did. Their influence needs to be eradicated. They are like any criminal organisation and if atoned for their abuses would no longer exist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    One does not need to belong to an organization in order to abuse children. A lot of priests and lay Catholics are good people who find the notion of child abuse abhorrent. Trying to label the entire Catholic Church as a pedophile ring is no different to Hitler writing Mein Kampf or Hutus going on the radio and calling Tutsis cockroaches. Such behaviour is motivated by hate and the devil is at the core of that hatred.

    so the abuse was now "the devils fault" and not the fault of of those who did it and covered it up . . yeah right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    A blog post opinion from 2009 (funded by who and requested for who ?) is now definitive state law and superceeds the Irish criminal justice system ? and nothing new has come out since 2009 then ? lol yeah right.

    Sure who needs to do stuff like read, when you know all the facts already!

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    work wrote: »
    water thank you for bringing us this, it is gut wrenching stuff. I feel each story is only like a single and and the church has a whole colony to deal with. They are not willing and do not want do deal with it and never did. Their influence needs to be eradicated. They are like any criminal organisation and if atoned for their abuses would no longer exist.

    why would they when the state still refuses to even investigate , or question, or search a single bishop's office or files, never mind prosecute them ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Sure who needs to do stuff like read, when you know all the facts already!

    so no crimes were actually committed by the bishops responsible then. . . lol yeah right


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    batgoat wrote: »
    Maybe this situation would never have arisen if the church had actually reported the crimes? But instead you're making this about the poor church and they're really the victims... Everything goes back to, the church intentionally made it impossible to investigate.

    And that`s another thing, if I were a victim of rape or whatever, I would go tell the Gardaí. None of these allegations ring true and the utter prejudice displayed against the clergy by all levels of society reinforce the perception that this is a witch hunt.

    None of these allegations ring true. Would you ever $#@k ¥₩f, sorry for cursing but I am appalled. What planet do you live on. You are a holocoust denier because that is what this is. You are one evil person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Did they rape many children?

    How should I know. You seem to be suggesting child rape is the only sin under the sun. What about murder, genocide, theft? Those things are wrong too, as is not doing your job properly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    One does not need to belong to an organization in order to abuse children. A lot of priests and lay Catholics are good people who find the notion of child abuse abhorrent. Trying to label the entire Catholic Church as a pedophile ring is no different to Hitler writing Mein Kampf or Hutus going on the radio and calling Tutsis cockroaches. Such behaviour is motivated by hate and the devil is at the core of that hatred.

    Indeed I don't dispute this but it takes a special type of evil to cover up for those priests who did rape and abuse children.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    work wrote: »
    None of these allegations ring true. Would you ever $#@k ¥₩f, sorry for cursing but I am appalled. What planet do you live on. You are a holocoust denier because that is what this is. You are one evil person.

    You are a holocaust perpetrator. Just because the slaughter of good Catholics in the street has not started yet does not nullify this stage of the life cycle of the wickedness which is beginning to unfold. The night of the long knives was the beginning of the holocaust and all because Hitler worked people up into a frenzy of hatred. Get thee hence Satan!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Even the pope accepts that the church has a certain % of paedophile priests. So even if these exact allegations are not proven we know that there are thousands of real cases.

    And what difference would it make if they were shown to be credible? Would you suddenly turn your back on the church? Would it change your view of the Pope? Doubt it, since you have already countless proven cases and yet you continue to stay loyal

    You could say the same thing about plumbers, kitchen porters, accountants etc. Priests at least gave up everything in the service of others. The ingratitude of some people is jaw dropping.

    Gave up what exactly? They got power, wealth, good food and housing, adoration by society and free access to children with NO concern for prosecution. You are some fool and need to be called out again and again. Go away you troll.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    work wrote: »
    Gave up what exactly? They got power, wealth, good food and housing, adoration by society and free access to children with NO concern for prosecution. You are some fool and need to be called out again and again. Go away you troll.
    Marriage, the prospect of a family, personal property, procreation and so on in order to serve God and others. By condemning these holy people of God you are likely to be judged in similar manner come judgement day. May God have mercy on your soul.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,347 ✭✭✭✭Grayditch


    **** OFF, PEADO KING.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,144 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Marriage, the prospect of a family, personal property, procreation and so on in order to serve God and others. By condemning these holy people of God you are likely to be judged in similar manner come judgement day. May God have mercy on your soul.

    Oh no, I'm goddamn quaking in my goddamn boots now that I've condemned some goddamn paedo priests.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Indeed I don't dispute this but it takes a special type of evil to cover up for those priests who did rape and abuse children.

    and also refusing to even investigate , or question, or search a single bishop's office or files, never mind prosecute them ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Giraffe Box


    Marriage, the prospect of a family, personal property, procreation and so on in order to serve God and others. By condemning these holy people of God you are likely to be judged in similar manner come judgement day. May God have mercy on your soul.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This has to be a piss-take.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Indeed I don't dispute this but it takes a special type of evil to cover up for those priests who did rape and abuse children.

    Perhaps if that was the intention and not the consequence of a disorganized priority list. Of course, pedophilia when it happens in families is rarely aired in public out of acute embarrassment but by your standard of judgement, each family member should be marched out in public and shamed for their silence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Indeed I don't dispute this but it takes a special type of evil to cover up for those priests who did rape and abuse children.

    Perhaps if that was the intention and not the consequence of a disorganized priority list. Of course, pedophilia when it happens in families is rarely aired in public out of acute embarrassment but by your standard of judgement, each family member should be marched out in public and shamed for their silence.
    Why do you believe that the catholic hierarchy covered up sexual abuse by priests?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Indeed I don't dispute this but it takes a special type of evil to cover up for those priests who did rape and abuse children.

    Perhaps if that was the intention and not the consequence of a disorganized priority list. Of course, pedophilia when it happens in families is rarely aired in public out of acute embarrassment but by your standard of judgement, each family member should be marched out in public and shamed for their silence.
    Why do you believe that the catholic hierarchy covered up sexual abuse by priests?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    You are a holocaust perpetrator. Just because the slaughter of good Catholics in the street has not started yet does not nullify this stage of the life cycle of the wickedness which is beginning to unfold. The night of the long knives was the beginning of the holocaust and all because Hitler worked people up into a frenzy of hatred. Get thee hence Satan!

    O.O


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    quintana76 wrote: »
    Suggesting we protest against the Pope as our clown of a Taoiseach visits a Muslim Brotherhood mosque for a photo shoot. There is no hope.

    Leo has made a fool of himself with this. Kissing all the ass he can. Religeon should have NO state support and politicians should steer clear. However just because the brotherhood is a disgrace, like all religeon. does not diminish the need to make a stand against the CC. The two are both an issue. Get rid of all religeon from state business.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,856 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    You are a holocaust perpetrator. Just because the slaughter of good Catholics in the street has not started yet does not nullify this stage of the life cycle of the wickedness which is beginning to unfold. The night of the long knives was the beginning of the holocaust and all because Hitler worked people up into a frenzy of hatred. Get thee hence Satan!

    For the last few years you have been (wrongly) predicting a devastating economic crash/depression so you will forgive me if i take this ludicrous prediction with a very large pinch of salt :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Well I would presume that person is more interested in going after active bishops. Maybe they mean Seán Brady but is there really a case? Any lawyers here on the thread?
    Are you looking to see if they broke the law or failed to let the law investigate any case.
    Sean Brady was a crucial part of a RCC cover up (despite his claims to be a lowly priest).

    Sean Brady failed to tell the RUC about Smyth.
    Sean Brady failed to tell the parents about Smyth.
    Sean Brady allowed Smyth's evil acts continue uninterrupted.

    And of course Sean Brady swore those poor abused children to secrecy. They could not tell anyone about the abuse for fear of excommunication.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,833 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Don't think Muslims will be going to Pheonix Park. Find another thread.
    The abuse of children by priests, is the consideration of this one.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭work


    Those who are now in authority in the state are not pro Catholic Church, so why not a single arrest for questioning, or warrant issued for searching their files in recent years, never mind a trial or conviction for the bishops that covered up these crimes in Ireland ? Most of these Bishops are still alive and well. The state is on the only body in Ireland that can obtain and administer justice for the victims of these crimes and cover ups, so why are the state authorities still refusing to do so and getting away with it, along with the bishops responsible ?

    Did you see my post which mentioned statute of limitations, and that covering up child abuse has not always been a crime?

    I am aware compulsory reporting was not always a crime and even now a minor crime. But, and I am no lawyer, being complicit and actively covering up the crime of rape is surely different. Can a lawyer let us know was that legal?


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