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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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Comments

  • #1352
    Odhinn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    quintana76 wrote: »
    Suggesting we protest against the Pope as our clown of a Taoiseach visits a Muslim Brotherhood mosque for a photo shoot. There is no hope.


    You might explain that to the slower of us.


  • #1353
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Why is no one calling for the heads of the Gardai and political figures who knew about the abuse and covered it up?


  • #1354
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,260 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    Those who are now in authority in the state are not pro Catholic Church, so why not a single arrest for questioning, or warrant issued for searching their files in recent years, never mind a trial or conviction for the bishops that covered up these crimes in Ireland ? Most of these Bishops are still alive and well. The state is on the only body in Ireland that can obtain and administer justice for the victims of these crimes and cover ups, so why are the state authorities still refusing to do so and getting away with it, along with the bishops responsible ?

    Did you see my post which mentioned statute of limitations, and that covering up child abuse has not always been a crime?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #1355
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Rivka Flat Handgun wrote: »
    Why is no one calling for the heads of the Gardai and political figures who knew about the abuse and covered it up?

    Why take the limelight off the church?


  • #1356
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    From all accounts this Pennsylvania report is quite disturbing even for those of us accustomed to shocking child abuse reports. The sexual abuse dates back from 1947 and the report names 300 predator priests abusing over 1000 children. You already get the impression that the Americans will take a no nonsense approach when dealing with the Roman organisation even though it also highlights the flaws in their statute of limitations.


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  • #1357
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,833 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Well it was around 200 religious in Boston comparative to the figure above. So you can begin to extrapulate that type of number across the USA and probably other countries. I think the approx figure for Ireland is 300


  • #1358
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    From all accounts this Pennsylvania report is quite disturbing even for those of us accustomed to shocking child abuse reports. The sexual abuse dates back from 1947 and the report names 300 predator priests abusing over 1000 children. You already get the impression that the Americans will take a no nonsense approach when dealing with the Roman organisation even though it also highlights the flaws in their statute of limitations.

    Compareable to Ireland as this state has a catholic population of just 3.2 million.

    If there are around 1,091 active priests in the state in 2017, and assuming most put in a steady 40/50yrs or service, the '300' figure is rather alarming.

    What would the total amount of active priests have been since 1947?
    Guessing maybe 2 or 3 thousand at the very most (indicating 10-15% have offended) would that be about right?


  • #1359
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,833 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    No, it's generally 6% in the US. So maybe 5,000 religious over that time. Remember the number of priests would have dropped quite a bit over the last 30 years.


  • #1360
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Did you see my post which mentioned statute of limitations, and that covering up child abuse has not always been a crime?

    So no other crimes were committed and no other laws were broken when they conspired to pervert the course of justice and concealed criminal activity ? Absolute Rubbish. It's always been a crime to conceal any crime, and yet the state is doing nothing. Who else is supposed to question, trial, convict and sentence these people and enact justice if it's not the state ?

    These flimsy Church and / or State apologist's excuses are rubbish.


  • #1361
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Rivka Flat Handgun wrote: »
    Why is no one calling for the heads of the Gardai and political figures who knew about the abuse and covered it up?

    Eaxctly. And even more importantly, why is no one calling for today's authorities today here and now to question, search, investigate, trial and convict the bishops/former bishops responsible and still alive and well, especially with new evidence coming to light year in year out ? There is something very funny going on today with today's current crop of politicians and state authorities, just as there was. And today's lot no longer have the excuse they are pro Catholic Church anymore, they are not. There is not a single vote in it, so there is something extremely strange still going on. It's time the state apologists and their pathetic excuses were called out as well as the Church one's. The Irish justice system is the Irish state's responsibility. How else are the victims going to get justice if the state continues to refuse to administer it and prosecute not just those who committed the crimes, but those in the Church management that conspired to conceal crimes and pervert the course of justice ? I'm sure there will be another Church and / or State apologist along soon to try another excuse / yarn.


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  • #1362
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    The state has been held accountable and is paying victims for various crimes. The state has changed over the years and learned from the interactions with the RCC.

    The church is not paying and has not changed.


  • #1363
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,926 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    So no other crimes were committed and no other laws were broken when they conspired to pervert the course of justice and concealed criminal activity ? Absolute Rubbish. It's always been a crime to conceal any crime, and yet the state is doing nothing. Who else is supposed to question, trial, convict and sentence these people and enact justice if it's not the state ?

    These flimsy Church and / or State apologist's excuses are rubbish.

    funnily enough you are not the first to think of this. The consensus is that it would be very difficult if not impossible

    https://www.ucc.ie/academic/law/blogs/ccjhr/2009/12/murphy-report-can-failure-to-protect-be.html


  • #1364
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    The state has been held accountable and is paying victims for various crimes. The state has changed over the years and learned from the interactions with the RCC.

    Rubbish. Neither the state or the Church management has.

    With all the new evidence coming to light year after year :

    How many bishops / former bishops that concealed criminal activity and attempted to pervert the course of justice have been questioned under caution so far by the state ?

    How many warrants to search their files and offices have been issued by the state ?

    How many files for attempting to pervert the course of justice been sent to the DPP by the Gardai ?

    How many bishops / former bishops have been take to court and trialed for attempting to conceal criminal activity and pervert the course of justice ? To do so was ALWAYS and EVER HAS BEEN against Irish law.


  • #1365
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    Rubbish.

    With all the new evidence coming to light year after year

    How many bishops / former bishops that concealed criminal activity and attempted to pervert the course of justice have been questioned under caution so far by the state ?

    How many warrants to search their files and offices been issued by the state ?

    How many files for attempting to pervert the course of justice been sent to the DPP by the Gardai ?

    How many bishops / former bishops have been take to court and trialed for attempting to conceal criminal activity and pervert the course of justice ? To do so was ALWAYS and EVER HAS BEEN against the law.

    Maybe i should clarify. The state has learned about the protection of children and changed procedures and practices. The church has not. Maybe you don’t agree with the protection of children!


  • #1366
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Maybe i should clarify. The state has learned about the protection of children and changed procedures and practices. The church has not. Maybe you don’t agree with the protection of children!

    And tell us how you propose to protect Children when the state refuses to enforce the law or prosecute the people who conspired to cover up criminal activity and pervert the course of justice ?


  • #1367
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    And tell us how you propose to protect Children when the state refuses to enforce the law or prosecute the people who conspired to cover up criminal activity and pervert the course of justice ?

    I don't think you understand what is meant by change. The state changed procedures and processes to safeguard children. The church have done nothing. Are you implying that the state is currently raping children?


  • #1368
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    I don't think you understand what is meant by change. The state changed procedures and processes to safeguard children. The church have done nothing. Are you implying that the state is currently raping children?

    So no crime was commited when these bishops conspired to pervert the course of justice ? yeah right.

    When was it ever not a against the law to pervert the coursed of justice and conceal a crime ?

    With all the new evidence coming to light now every year, the CURRENT authorities have no excuse to refuse to question, investigate, search or prosecute.
    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Are you implying that the state is currently raping children?

    Don't be an idiot. Tell us though, how do you propose to prevent people from perverting the course of justice and covering up child rape if the CURRENT AUTHORITIES in this state continually refuse to investigate those responsible for doing exactly that, never mind prosecute them ?


  • #1369
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    So no crime was commited when these bishops conspired to pervert the course of justice ? yeah right.

    When was it not a crime to pervert the coursed of justice and conceal a crime ?



    Don't be an idiot. Tell us though how though do you propose to prevent people from perverting the course of justice and covering up child rape if the state continually refuses to investigate those responsible for doing exactly that, never mind prosecute them ?

    Less of the childish name calling.

    I am not going to repeat for the third or fourth time to someone who deliberately misinterpretes the message.


  • #1370
    imme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    It is obviously a person's own choice whether they choose to protest against the world meeting of families etc etc

    If it means so much why would a person not be protesting outside their local church or archbishop's palace outside the time of the world...

    Are they jumping on a band wagon, I think so


  • #1371
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    Rubbish. Neither the state or the Church management has.

    With all the new evidence coming to light year after year :

    How many bishops / former bishops that concealed criminal activity and attempted to pervert the course of justice have been questioned under caution so far by the state ?

    How many warrants to search their files and offices have been issued by the state ?

    How many files for attempting to pervert the course of justice been sent to the DPP by the Gardai ?

    How many bishops / former bishops have been take to court and trialed for attempting to conceal criminal activity and pervert the course of justice ? To do so was ALWAYS and EVER HAS BEEN against Irish law.
    I am sorry but you are not realistic if you think there is many opportunities for the DPP to get successful convictions against bishops who covered up in Ireland. It would have happened at least once if there was many opportunities for this as you say. There is no sitting bishop that covered up anyway in Ireland in this country.


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  • #1372
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,833 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Aren't you very careful with your wording in the last sentence;

    'There is no sitting bishop that covered up anyway in Ireland in this country.' Quote.
    Does this cover retired bishops or bishops no longer in this country?


  • #1373
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    There is no sitting bishop that covered up anyway in Ireland in this country.

    Like Bishop McAreavy just up the road in the diocese of Dromore?

    Forced to resign (but only after the BBC ran a spotlight investigation programme) earlier this year (2018).

    The pope himself classed the diocese as 'unfit for purpose'.


  • #1374
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Water John wrote: »
    Aren't you very careful with your wording in the last sentence;

    'There is no sitting bishop that covered up anyway in Ireland in this country.' Quote.
    Does this cover retired bishops or bishops no longer in this country?
    Well I would presume that person is more interested in going after active bishops. Maybe they mean Seán Brady but is there really a case? Any lawyers here on the thread?


  • #1375
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,905 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Well I would presume that person is more interested in going after active bishops. Maybe they mean Seán Brady but is there really a case? Any lawyers here on the thread?
    Are you looking to see if they broke the law or failed to let the law investigate any case.
    Sean Brady was a crucial part of a RCC cover up (despite his claims to be a lowly priest).

    Sean Brady failed to tell the RUC about Smyth.
    Sean Brady failed to tell the parents about Smyth.
    Sean Brady allowed Smyth's evil acts continue uninterrupted.


  • #1376
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    There is no sitting bishop that covered up anyway in Ireland in this country.

    what difference does it make if someone who conspired to pervert the course of justice is sitting, standing, lying down or taking a dump ?

    what exactly makes them so exempt from any investigation and criminal prosecution by the state, search warrants, questioning under caution ?

    since when was any retired person exempt from the criminal law process ?

    why has the state failed to up hold justice ?


  • #1377
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Are you looking to see if they broke the law or failed to let the law investigate any case.
    Sean Brady was a crucial part of a RCC cover up (despite his claims to be a lowly priest).

    Sean Brady failed to tell the RUC about Smyth.
    Sean Brady failed to tell the parents about Smyth.
    Sean Brady allowed Smyth's evil acts continue uninterrupted.
    But could you actually convict someone for that? The Gardaí knew of Brendan Smyth's abuse since the 1970s. Are you going to convict them too?


  • #1378
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,833 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Where is Bishop McGee nowadays?


  • #1379
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    But could actually convict someone for that? The Gardaí knew of Brendan Smyth's abuse since the 1970s. Are you going to convict them too?

    Since when was conspiring to pervert the course of justice not a crime ?
    Since when were people not prosecuted for this ?
    Why are the state authorities refusing to uphold the criminal justice system and enforce law of the land ?


  • #1380
    Irish Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Water John wrote: »
    Where is Bishop McGee nowadays?

    Completely Immune from any crime, investigation, questioning, search, trial or prosecution it seems.

    Why are the authorities and politicians not doing their job and enforcing the law of the land ?

    The state is responsible for administering justice for the victims of crime


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  • #1381
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Irish Kings wrote: »
    Since when was conspiring to pervert the course of justice not a crime ?
    Since when were people not prosecuted for this ?
    Why are the state authorities refusing to uphold the criminal justice system and enforce law of the land ?
    I honestly don't know if it was a crime or not. I think it is a serious question that would be good to run by a lawyer experienced in this area.


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