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Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

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Comments

  • #692
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Brian? wrote: »
    I don’t think the hang ups are anything inate. Look ate the societies in Papua New Guinea, the Amazon and so on. Nudity is not taboo.
    Actually. Nope. I'm afraid that's a massive misconception.

    The Papuans and various Amazonian cultures have quite clear boundaries where "nudity" comes in. It may not be immediately obvious to outsiders but they're very much present. EG in some Amazonian cultures where the women appear buck naked to Western eyes they may wear body paint and a cord belt. To the locals this means they're "dressed". If a woman was to walk out in public minus those "clothed" cultural markers she would be regarded as naked, a sexual being, even shameful. A more obvious difference would be between devout Muslims who consider a woman not wearing a headscarf to be somehow "naked" and something to be pointed at and shamed, whereas a western woman in a string bikini in her society is not seen as naked.

    So this European idea of tribal innocents frolicking in a pre civilised state that became popular centuries ago is a pure invention. Pretty much the only sub section of societies anywhere that considers mixed sex nudity as fine are to be found in nudist folks in the West.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #693
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »
    The time to discuss it is now. We don' write/ change laws and wait and see what the fallout eventually is, we consider the consequences in advance before writing them.

    Right and when we write laws and someone raises a theoretical possibility we can recognise that it’s extremely unlikely and legislate accordingly.


  • #694
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    I don't understand how someone can make a comment about how women are harassed on a daily basis and yet completely dismiss the possibility of men doing a specific thing to harass women.

    Oh you would be surprised what mental gymnastics some posters can perform.


  • #695
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Oh you would be surprised what mental gymnastics some posters can perform.

    It's mind boggling stuff, really.


  • #696
    fattymuatty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭fattymuatty


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    If getting changed around someone that THEORETICALLY might perv on you is a major concern then isn’t there an issue with gay people changing around straight people of the same gender?

    I said I wasn't comfortable getting changed around people of the opposite sex, not because perving is a 'major concern'. Like I said I am just not comfortable with it and the same goes for many women and men. I really don't see what the big deal is here.

    Why don't trans women want to get changed with men? Why aren't we questioning that? Is 'perving a major concern' to them?


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  • #697
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    I don't understand how someone can make a comment about how women are harassed on a daily basis and yet completely dismiss the possibility of men doing a specific thing to harass women.

    Because I recognise actual sexual harrassment, not made up theoretical possibilities.


  • #698
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    fattymuatty wrote: »
    I said I wasn't comfortable getting changed around people of the opposite sex, not because perving is a 'major concern'. Like I said I am just not comfortable with it and the same goes for many women and men. I really don't see what the big deal is here.

    Why don't trans women want to get changed with men? Why aren't we questioning that? Is 'perving a major concern' to them?

    I’m sure some trans women are comfortable getting changed around men.

    So You aren’t comfortable getting changed around men. You want a space that accommodates that. Fair enough.

    Say a straight man isn’t comfortable getting changed around a gay man. How should we accommodate him?


  • #699
    vetinari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭vetinari


    Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »
    "Anyone who disagrees or has any concerns is a transphone and a bigot."



    And if they're not presenting as the opposite sex? If they look and sound like a man, and dress like a man, and claim to identify as a woman, then what?


    Exactly, if all you have is your "feelings" that someone might do something dodgy, then yes you're probably a bigot.


    There's zero data backing up your position. You clearly feel a level of unwarranted animosity towards trans people. It's literally the definition of bigotry.


  • #700
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    I think it's time to leave this thread, it's like listening to my bad **** crazy uber-feminist colleague, and I'm enjoying the peace without her whining.

    The whataboutery displayed by certain posters is just staggering!

    To end - you have a penis, you're a man - if you have a vagina, you are a woman.

    If you have surgery to remove/amend said organs, you are the sex with that physical attribute.


  • #701
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    vetinari wrote: »
    Exactly, if all you have is your "feelings" that someone might do something dodgy, then yes you're probably a bigot.


    There's zero data backing up your position. You clearly feel a level of unwarranted animosity towards trans people. It's literally the definition of bigotry.

    You have literally just proved that poster's point by referring to them as a bigot.


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  • #702
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    I’m sure some trans women are comfortable getting changed around men.

    So You aren’t comfortable getting changed around men. You want a space that accommodates that. Fair enough.

    Say a straight man isn’t comfortable getting changed around a gay man. How should we accommodate him?

    God, this is exhausting. So if I have no issue with showering/changing beside a lesbian I should thus have no issue showering/changing beside a person with a penis who tells me they are a woman? I don't know why, but yet somehow I do. It's confusing for me at this stage even, but because....feelings...I guess?


  • #703
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Malayalam wrote: »
    God, this is exhausting. So if I have no issue with showering/changing beside a lesbian I should thus have no issue showering/changing beside a person with a penis who tells me they are a woman? I don't know why, but yet somehow I do. It's confusing for me at this stage even, but because....feelings...I guess?

    No I’m asking what accommodations should be made for someone who does have a problem showering with lesbians?


  • #704
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    No I’m asking what accommodations should be made for someone who does have a problem showering with lesbians?

    How the feck would I know. You figure it out. You have all the answers.


  • #705
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    vetinari wrote: »
    Exactly, if all you have is your "feelings" that someone might do something dodgy, then yes you're probably a bigot.


    There's zero data backing up your position. You clearly feel a level of unwarranted animosity towards trans people. It's literally the definition of bigotry.

    :rolleyes:


  • #706
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    No I’m asking what accommodations should be made for someone who does have a problem showering with lesbians?

    Are you trying to suggest that since a man cannot be accommodated in his desire to have a separate shower to gay men, and a woman to shower separately to gay women, that we should all allow anyone to shower wherever they please?


  • #707
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Malayalam wrote: »
    How the feck would I know. You figure it out. You have all the answers.

    So you have no idea how someone who doesn’t want to shower with gay people should be accommodated, but you’re absolutely certain that accommodations should be made for you who doesn’t want to shower with trans people. I get you now.


  • #708
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Malayalam wrote: »
    God, this is exhausting. So if I have no issue with showering/changing beside a lesbian I should thus have no issue showering/changing beside a person with a penis who tells me they are a woman? I don't know why, but yet somehow I do. It's confusing for me at this stage even, but because....feelings...I guess?

    Oh God this is so tiring!!!

    If you have a problem showering by someone of the same sex - YOU have a problem and should make alternate arrangements.

    If you are one sex and have a problem with being naked in a venue design solely for your sex - and the opposite sex is there, you do NOT have a problem and that person should not be there.

    Why is that so hard for some to get ????


  • #709
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »
    Are you trying to suggest that since a man cannot be accommodated in his desire to have a separate shower to gay men, and a woman to shower separately to gay women, that we should all allow anyone to shower wherever they please?

    No I’m saying a trans person should be able to shower with the gender they identify as.


  • #710
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    No I’m saying a trans person should be able to shower with the gender they identify as.

    Regardless of whether or not they have transitioned?


  • #711
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Oh God this is so tiring!!!

    If you have a problem showering by someone of the same sex - YOU have a problem and should make alternate arrangements.

    If you are one sex and have a problem with being naked in a venue design solely for your sex - and the opposite sex is there, you do NOT have a problem and that person should not be there.

    Why is that so hard for some to get ????

    Because all you’re doing is staring your opinion on who has problems and who should have problems without any analysis of why.

    It’s basically the world according to planespeeking


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  • #712
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »
    Regardless of whether or not they have transitioned?

    https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/18/transgender-prisoner-sexually-assaulted-female-inmates-days-jailed-7728870/

    Only if you want that more widespread.


  • #713
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »
    Regardless of whether or not they have transitioned?

    I don’t believe someone who has not transitioned and has made no effort to change their outward appearance would have any interest in using the female changing rooms


  • #714
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    I don’t believe someone who has not transitioned and has made no effort to change their outward appearance would have any interest in using the female changing rooms

    That doesn't answer the question. Do you think that someone who has not transitioned, but claims to identify with the other gender, should be allowed to use the other gender's facilities?


  • #715
    fattymuatty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭fattymuatty


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    I don’t believe someone who has not transitioned and has made no effort to change their outward appearance would have any interest in using the female changing rooms

    What does that even mean? I don't give a toss about someones outward appearance, wear what you want I don't care and don't think anyone else here does either. Do you not understand that we have a problem sharing with someone of the opposite sex, of sex segregated spaces being changed to gender segregated without any consultation or thought as to how we might feel about this change? We don't have a problem with how people look, it is about biology.


  • #716
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    So you have no idea how someone who doesn’t want to shower with gay people should be accommodated, but you’re absolutely certain that accommodations should be made for you who doesn’t want to shower with trans people. I get you now.

    First of all I have no problem showering with lesbians.

    But somehow you are conflating sexual orientation with gender identity and I thought that was a sin.

    I wouldn't have any issue showering with transitioned women. It would be terrible for them to have to go to the male showers. Or prisons. Or dormitories.

    But a person with full male sexual characteristics who tells me they are a woman - yeah, write me down as a bigot, but I would feel uncomfortable showering or changing beside them. Fcuk it I accept my transphobia now. Bite me.


  • #717
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »
    That doesn't answer the question. Do you think that someone who has not transitioned, but claims to identify with the other gender, should be allowed to use the other gender's facilities?

    I’d reserve judgement on that. I’d like to hear from trans people who makes no changes to their outward appearance. I don’t even know if they exist. I’d like to know if they would want to use female changing rooms and if so why.


  • #718
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    How will we produce the lay priests that administer our shiny new caste system if we don't have gender studies graduates?


  • #719
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,478 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »
    Regardless of whether or not they have transitioned?

    I don’t believe someone who has not transitioned and has made no effort to change their outward appearance would have any interest in using the female changing rooms
    I have met 2 trans women in my life, one back in the 90s. Both were at various stages of transition. Both presented as female. One was obviously in the earlier stage of transitioning(and dealing with the most appalling abuse because of it) I can state categorically I would have no problem at all in sharing a changing area or public toilets with either of these two women.


  • #720
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    fattymuatty wrote: »
    What does that even mean? I don't give a toss about someones outward appearance, wear what you want I don't care and don't think anyone else here does either. Do you not understand that we have a problem sharing with someone of the opposite sex, of sex segregated spaces being changed to gender segregated without any consultation or thought as to how we might feel about this change? We don't have a problem with how people look, it is about biology.

    We've a high proportion of Muslim female students in my College and the toilets were changed to gender neutral without consultation - no one thought of their feelings in this.

    Wee bits of things who have only just gone from being chaperoned, to being expect to take off their headscarves in front of men. It's upsetting to them.


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  • #721
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Malayalam wrote: »
    First of all I have no problem showering with lesbians.

    But somehow you are conflating sexual orientation with gender identity and I thought that was a sin.

    I wouldn't have any issue showering with transitioned women. It would be terrible for them to have to go to the male showers. Or prisons. Or dormitories.

    But a person with full male sexual characteristics who tells me they are a woman - yeah, write me down as a bigot, but I would feel uncomfortable showering or changing beside them. Fcuk it I accept my transphobia now. Bite me.

    You just keep saying you’re uncomfortable. That’s not what I asked. I’m asking what accommodations should be made for you discomfort and why does that differ from people who have discomfort surrounding gay people.


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