Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:48PM

Brian? wrote: »

Is it me, or do most of the objections around accepting trans people come down to sharing changing rooms or toilets?

I genuinely find the taboos around nudity bizarre. Now, I go along with them as a matter what of politeness to other peoples comfort levels. But honestly, why are we so hung up on nudity? Why is it so import to hide?

I get that in our culture people have hangups about nudity and this isn’t Germany. What I find bizarre is this “rapists are everywhere” mentality.

It comes from the same people who think feminists are demonising men, yet they seem to be the ones who are afraid of men.

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 02:49PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

What’s your concern there?

An unknown lady with a penis checking my vagina or rectum for drugs. I have narrowly avoided a stout lady police officer trying that on once at the Swiss border in the old days, but if it was a woman with all male presentation...hmmm.

Brian? · 21-08-2018 02:51PM

Malayalam wrote: »

The toilets thing is not such a big deal with me, toilets are omnisex in every home, and if I am at an event I will often enough use the men's loos because, damn, those queues for the ladies are unreal. Though if I consider more widely than me, perhaps elderly ladies with continence problems might find it awkward to have a bunch of young fellas larking about in the loos. Or younger women experiencing the 1 in 5 pregnancies that end in miscarriage, and very often in a public toilet, might feel a tad uneasy with elder gents in the queue. Don't know. It's possible, I would say. Why not have all three options? Male, female, and however you are feeling yourself?

I see what you’re saying. And maybe that is the answer to it. I still feel the right will make an issue out of it and the left will over react.

I’m hoping by the time my kids are grown, this will all seem silly. The way the anti gay laws and discrimination of my childhood seem silly now.

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 02:52PM

Brian? wrote: »

Is it me, or do most of the objections around accepting trans people come down to sharing changing rooms or toilets?

I genuinely find the taboos around nudity bizarre. Now, I go along with them as a matter what of politeness to other peoples comfort levels. But honestly, why are we so hung up on nudity? Why is it so import to hide?

Sure lookit, we should all ride the bus to work in the nude. I think it would be beneficial for children so they would have no hang ups about personal space at all.

fattymuatty · 21-08-2018 02:52PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Talk about red herrings.

So you are just going to make a smart arse comment and ignore the other points? Sounds about right.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 02:52PM

The bathrooms are brought up because they're a simple example of gender being relevant in gaining access to certain facilities. A better example perhaps is women's shelters. Or women's sports.

Brian? · 21-08-2018 02:54PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I get that in our culture people have hangups about nudity and this isn’t Germany. What I find bizarre is this “rapists are everywhere” mentality.

It comes from the same people who think feminists are demonising men, yet they seem to be the ones who are afraid of men.

Ha. Never thought of that, but you’re right. The same people who attack the likes of the MeToo movement are the ones worrying about rapists and paedophiles masquerading as trans women.

fattymuatty · 21-08-2018 02:54PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I just looked into the Target thing.

Seems it was mostly men videoing themselves being allowed to use the bathrooms to prove a point.

Of the voyeur incidents some were before the gender neutral policy was announced, and one of the men responsible for an incident after the gender neutral policy was announced had a conviction from before the policy.

Nothing to do with trans issues at all.

Yeah, yeah nothing to do with trans issues at all.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/target-transgender-idaho-voyeurism.html

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 02:55PM

Brian? wrote: »

I see what you’re saying. And maybe that is the answer to it. I still feel the right will make an issue out of it and the left will over react.

I’m hoping by the time my kids are grown, this will all seem silly. The way the anti gay laws and discrimination of my childhood seem silly now.

Meet you back here in 10 years time and we will see what way it pans out and what seems silly then

Brian? · 21-08-2018 02:57PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Sure lookit, we should all ride the bus to work in the nude. I think it would be beneficial for children so they would have no hang ups about personal space at all.

I know you’re joking, but why wouldn’t that be better than having all these hang ups about nudity?

Weather permitting of course.

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 03:01PM

Brian? wrote: »

I know you’re joking, but why wouldn’t that be better than having all these hang ups about nudity?

Weather permitting of course.

Hahah

(answer = sticky bums

)

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-08-2018 03:02PM

Brian? wrote: »

Is it me, or do most of the objections around accepting trans people come down to sharing changing rooms or toilets?

I genuinely find the taboos around nudity bizarre. Now, I go along with them as a matter what of politeness to other peoples comfort levels. But honestly, why are we so hung up on nudity? Why is it so import to hide?

I can walk around naked easily enough in a male dressing room. In a mixed dressing room that kind of thing is not acceptable.

Identity politics is pushing in two different directions on this - safe spaces for women, interaction with female doctors or police for intimate searches or medical reasons. Even Islamic ideologies have been accommodated in some segregated swimming pools.

(And no they aren’t going to accept a trans woman biological male as a woman).

Something has got to give.

Brian? · 21-08-2018 03:02PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Meet you back here in 10 years time and we will see what way it pans out and what seems silly then

I have an inkling I’ll be on the right side of this one. Still plenty of homophobes around, but they no longer get their way. I see the same happening with trans issues.

I don’t know what age you are, but I remember the backlash against “the gays”, looking exactly like this. The church have less influence now though, praise allah.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 03:06PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I get that in our culture people have hangups about nudity and this isn’t Germany. What I find bizarre is this “rapists are everywhere” mentality.

It comes from the same people who think feminists are demonising men, yet they seem to be the ones who are afraid of men.

It's nothing got to do with "rapists are everywhere".

If you acknowledge the fact that perverts / rapists / men with bad intentions exist, then you must also acknowledge that allowing anyone to identify as any gender and access the same facilities of their chosen gender, it will increase access of these people to their targets.

Identity politics aren't healthy. It's clear you're wrapped up in your ideology when you're immediately assuming that anyone who raises a concern about arbitrary gender identification is a right winger who hates the metoo movement.

Brian? · 21-08-2018 03:06PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I can walk around naked easily enough in a male dressing room. In a mixed dressing room that kind of thing is not acceptable.

I know it’s not acceptable. I’m asking why though? I think I know why, but it’s a convoluted theory based on religious oppression of the masses. Mainly the Abrhamic religions.

Shouldn’t it be questioned?

Identity politics is pushing in two different directions on this - safe spaces for women, interaction with female doctors or police for intimate searches or medical reasons. Even Islamic ideologies have been accommodated in some segregated swimming pools.

(And no they aren’t going to accept a trans woman biological male as a woman).

Something has got to give.

Something should give. Religions should no longer be accomadated in public institutions for a start.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-08-2018 03:07PM

Brian? wrote: »

I know you’re joking, but why wouldn’t that be better than having all these hang ups about nudity?

Weather permitting of course.

These hang ups are probably inate. Every human society has clothing, and the genitalia are covered in even the most (whatever the modern word for) primitive society.

You see, we stand up and thus expose the genitalia. That’s something that makes us vulnerable and, well, in the male case broadcasts fairly obvious semi signals that maybe we don’t want broadcast when the hot woman gets on the bus.

Brian? · 21-08-2018 03:07PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Hahah (answer = sticky bums )

Seriously though. Why the taboo? Have you actually given it any thought?

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 03:09PM

Brian? wrote: »

I have an inkling I’ll be on the right side of this one. Still plenty of homophobes around, but they no longer get their way. I see the same happening with trans issues.

I don’t know what age you are, but I remember the backlash against “the gays”, looking exactly like this. The church have less influence now though, praise allah.

The issue's not trans per se, it's stupid identity politics that will not admit or address with its own internal incoherence. Simply ''identifying'' as a gender with no further action is always going to throw up contradictions and anomalies.

PlaneSpeeking · 21-08-2018 03:10PM

Brian? wrote: »

I have an inkling I’ll be on the right side of this one. Still plenty of homophobes around, but they no longer get their way. I see the same happening with trans issues.

I don’t know what age you are, but I remember the backlash against “the gays”, looking exactly like this. The church have less influence now though, praise allah.

There may have been more idiotic postings but

I've been a staunch advocate for LGBT rights since as long as I can recall, and going to Catholic school that was not easy.

I've seen a young woman in my College go through a painful transition, mentally; physically and emotionally painful. Her family largely disowned her. We supported her.

Where I draw the line is a person where absolutely zero physical changes have taken place declaring they are the opposite gender and demanding unsupervised access to places where

What is to stop an abusive male partner declaring as female and accessing a women's shelter ? We have already had male rapists who are still anatomically and hormonally men being placed in a women's prison.

We are sacrificing the vulnerable to be politically correct.

And anyone defending that freak who wants to dress up and have "play dates" with six year old girls ? He should be jailed and you should be ashamed.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 03:11PM

Brian? wrote: »

I know it’s not acceptable. I’m asking why though? I think I know why, but it’s a convoluted theory based on religious oppression of the masses. Mainly the Abrhamic religions.

Shouldn’t it be questioned?

Something should give. Religions should no longer be accomadated in public institutions for a start.

More of the oppressor vs victims mentality Brian.

I don't believe religions are primarily responsible for people not going everywhere nude, although to be fair I've done very little research on the matter. I'd be inclined to say it's for protection from the elements to a large extent.

How does religion come into a discussion about safe spaces for women (e.g the swimming classes for women only) potentially allowing transgender women (or men identifying as women) into their safe spaces? Its completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-08-2018 03:12PM

Brian? wrote: »

I know it’s not acceptable. I’m asking why though? I think I know why, but it’s a convoluted theory based on religious oppression of the masses. Mainly the Abrhamic religions.

Shouldn’t it be questioned?

nothing to do with abramhabic religions because the nudity taboo is fairly ancient and universal. Adam and Eve was explaining a taboo already there.

Something should give. Religions should no longer be accomadated in public institutions for a start.

It’s not accommodating a religious act, like a mass or a mosque sermon. It’s locally democratic councillors who listening to concerns from their voters who happen to be religious.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 03:13PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

It's nothing got to do with "rapists are everywhere".

If you acknowledge the fact that perverts / rapists / men with bad intentions exist, then you must also acknowledge that allowing anyone to identify as any gender and access the same facilities of their chosen gender, it will increase access of these people to their targets.

Identity politics aren't healthy. It's clear you're wrapped up in your ideology when you're immediately assuming that anyone who raises a concern about arbitrary gender identification is a right winger who hates the metoo movement.

Nah I think if someone was likely to rape a woman in a female changing room they wouldn’t need to pretend to be trans to do it.

The example that someone gave of incidents in Target with gender neutral changing rooms in the US proved the point. Incidents were already happening before the rooms became gender neutral, and a guy caught after they became gender neutral had convictions from before hey became gender neutral.

Pervs be perving.

Brian? · 21-08-2018 03:14PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

These hang ups are probably inate. Every human society has clothing, and the genitalia are covered in even the most (whatever the modern word for) primitive society.

You see, we stand up and thus expose the genitalia. That’s something that makes us vulnerable and, well, in the male case broadcasts fairly obvious semi signals that maybe we don’t want broadcast when the hot woman gets on the bus.

I think we get excited by naked women because of the taboo though. If everyone is naked constantly, would the sight of a naked woman visibly excite a man?

I don’t think the hang ups are anything inate. Look ate the societies in Papua New Guinea, the Amazon and so on. Nudity is not taboo.

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 03:14PM

Brian? wrote: »

Seriously though. Why the taboo? Have you actually given it any thought?

I have of course. I even lived in a nudist colony for a month a long time ago in Turkey. But I think Mr Von Peppercorn expressed quite succinctly my overall appraisal of being buck naked on the bus or in the bank.

PlaneSpeeking · 21-08-2018 03:14PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

More of the oppressor vs victims mentality Brian.

I don't believe religions are primarily responsible for people not going everywhere nude, although to be fair I've done very little research on the matter. I'd be inclined to say it's for protection from the elements to a large extent.

How does religion come into a discussion about safe spaces for women (e.g the swimming classes for women only) potentially allowing transgender women (or men identifying as women) into their safe spaces? Its completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm Catholic, went to Mass just last Sunday, prayed this morning.

I support LGBT rights and always have, I support TRUE trans rights.

I think the "gender identity/being female during the week, male at weekends and both on a bank holiday/73 different genders" nonsense has gone too far but my faith has zero to do with that decision.

Common sense does.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 03:16PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nah I think if someone was likely to rape a woman in a female changing room they wouldn’t need to pretend to be trans to do it.

The example that someone gave of incidents in Target with gender neutral changing rooms in the US proved the point. Incidents were already happening before the rooms became gender neutral, and a guy caught after they became gender neutral had convictions from before hey became gender neutral.

Pervs be perving.

You keep jumping to rape.

Let's take the simple example of a man called John, who is a bit lonely and happens to be a bit of a pervert. Normally he will just stare inappropriately at women in public, but that's a bout the limit because he can't reasonably gain any other access to women.

Now, all of a sudden, when John goes to the gym, he realises he can say "hey, I identify as a woman", and have access to the women's facilities, with no questions asked.

Do you see how that might be problematic?

Brian? · 21-08-2018 03:17PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

nothing to do with abramhabic religions because the nudity taboo is fairly ancient and universal. Adam and Eve was explaining a taboo already there.

So simply reinforcing an existing taboo? Have you any suggestions on where I can read more about that.

It’s not accommodating a religious act, like a mass or a mosque sermon. It’s locally democratic councillors who listening to concerns from their voters who happen to be religious.

It’s accommodating religious beliefs though.

PlaneSpeeking · 21-08-2018 03:18PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I'm not religious at all, I'm often vocal in my opinions against the church, but even I'm getting tired of everything getting blamed on religion.

It seems the fashionable thing to do for some!

Two lovely pals of mine actually had their civil partnership blessed by a priest - cool dude he is, and did in the side aisle of the church.

Meant the world to them, one day that will be done openly. At least I hope so.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 03:18PM

Brian? wrote: »

So simply reinforcing an existing taboo? Have you any suggestions on where I can read more about that.

It’s accommodating religious beliefs though.

So ideas/beliefs which are religious should be ignored on the basis of them being religious, regardless of their merit?

Brian? · 21-08-2018 03:19PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

More of the oppressor vs victims mentality Brian.

I don't believe religions are primarily responsible for people not going everywhere nude, although to be fair I've done very little research on the matter. I'd be inclined to say it's for protection from the elements to a large extent.

How does religion come into a discussion about safe spaces for women (e.g the swimming classes for women only) potentially allowing transgender women (or men identifying as women) into their safe spaces? Its completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I wasn’t the one who brought religion up.

Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

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