Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 01:07PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I wouldn’t be policing it, demanding that a trans person be “convincing” enough before access granted.

I don’t believe for a second that a trans person who was happy to make no effort at transitioning in some way would want to use the female changing rooms anyway so it’s a nonissue.

That has not been the case re prisons. The female identifiers don't feel compelled to make an ''effort'' to transition.

fattymuatty · 21-08-2018 01:23PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Depends what you mean by problem.

I can imagine some cis men or women being unhappy at sharing their space with a trans person and making problems. That doesn’t change that trans women should be able to use women’s changing rooms and trans men should be able to use men’s.

So the feelings of women and men don't matter? Why is that? Why do people think they can erase single sex areas without even taking into account the feelings of the people who use them?

How am I supposed to know if a man in the female changing rooms is actually a man or identifies as trans? I am sure you can agree there is no logical reason a man would want to get changed in female changing rooms over males so seeing a male in a female changing area obviously raises alarm bells. How am I supposed to know if it is a man in there for nefarious reasons(just look at all the problems gender neutral changing areas in target has caused) or if it is as you would put it a woman? I am just supposed to trust that if they say they are a woman they are, end of?

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 01:28PM

Malayalam wrote: »

Being ''unhappy'' and ''making problems''? How about being actively endangered?? Like if a sex offender with fully intact male genitalia who identifies as a woman is incarcerated in a women's prison?

Absolutely some alternative would need to be found to deal with the minuscule number of trans women who have committed sexual offenders against women.

In the same vein I would suggest that a person who identifies as male but who is fully presenting as a female should probably not make a habit out of using the male showers in the gym/pool, or opt for incarceration in the male prison.

Fecksake, being ''unhappy'' and ''making problems''. Some women shower nude after swimming in the ladies changing room, if i ever look over and see hairy male tackle attached to the lady under the spout beside me and small girls waiting in line to use the shower, i will be slightly more that ''unhappy'' I can tell you, and ''making problems'' would be the least of my concerns.

Is this a problem you’ve faced a lot? Are trans women who haven’t transitioned clamouring to use the shower next to you?

I personally would have no issue with a trans person using the shower next to me.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 01:31PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

So the feelings of women and men don't matter? Why is that? Why do people think they can erase single sex areas without even taking into account the feelings of the people who use them?

How am I supposed to know if a man in the female changing rooms is actually a man or identifies as trans? I am sure you can agree there is no logical reason a man would want to get changed in female changing rooms over males so seeing a male in a female changing area obviously raises alarm bells. How am I supposed to know if it is a man in there for nefarious reasons(just look at all the problems gender neutral changing areas in target has caused) or if it is as you would put it a woman? I am just supposed to trust that if they say they are a woman they are, end of?

Has this ever happened? Has someone who appears to be Male claimed to be female so he could have a good look at naked women?

How do you feel about sharing your space with gay people?

How do you feel about sharing your space with trans people who have fully transitioned?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 01:31PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Absolutely some alternative would need to be found to deal with the minuscule number of trans women who have committed sexual offenders against women.

Is this a problem you’ve faced a lot? Are trans women who haven’t transitioned clamouring to use the shower next to you?

I personally would have no issue with a trans person using the shower next to me.

If my wife and daughters were in a changing room and a trans woman (man identifying as a woman) who from all appearances was a man, including genitalia etc, I'd have a problem with it. Can you genuinely say in the same position that you would have zero problem with it?

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 01:33PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

If my wife and daughters were in a changing room and a trans woman (man identifying as a woman) who from all appearances was a man, including genitalia etc, I'd have a problem with it. Can you genuinely say in the same position that you would have zero problem with it?

Yes I would have absolutely zero problem with it.

Why do some men always reference their wives and daughters. What about yourself? What if a trans man showered next to you?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 01:33PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Has this ever happened? Has someone who appears to be Male claimed to be female so he could have a good look at naked women?

How do you feel about sharing your space with gay people?

How do you feel about sharing your space with trans people who have fully transitioned?

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/18/transgender-prisoner-sexually-assaulted-female-inmates-days-jailed-7728870/

No problem sharing spaces with gay people.

No problem sharing my space with trans people who have fully transitioned.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 01:36PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes I would have absolutely zero problem with it.

Why do some men always reference their wives and daughters. What about yourself? What if a trans man showered next to you?

That's mad. If you're being honest, fair enough.

As a man I'd feel well capable of defending myself against a trans man if they had some negative intentions so it wouldn't be the end of the world, although it'd be a bit odd seeing a woman's body in the men's showers.

While my wife might be able to defend herself (because I'm not a sexist), I can't reasonably expect my children to defend themselves against a man-turned-woman.

And even if there is no defending or anything necessary, I don't like the idea of my daughters getting changed in the same area where there's a man (male body) also getting changed.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 01:38PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/18/transgender-prisoner-sexually-assaulted-female-inmates-days-jailed-7728870/

No problem sharing spaces with gay people.

No problem sharing my space with trans people who have fully transitioned.

I asked if there were men going into female changing rooms for a perv and claiming to be trans. Not whether a rape had occurred by a trans person in a female prison. Here’s another article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-prison-rape-colorado-female-men-colorado-lawsuit-a8334556.html

So if you don’t mind sharing with gay people and you don’t mind sharing with fully transitioned trans people then what is the issue?

Is it seeing the opposite genders genitalia? Or that you think they are lying about their trans status so they can get a look at your bits?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 01:41PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I asked if there were men going into female changing rooms for a perv and claiming to be trans. Not whether a rape had occurred by a trans person in a female prison. Here’s another article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-prison-rape-colorado-female-men-colorado-lawsuit-a8334556.html

So if you don’t mind sharing with gay people and you don’t mind sharing with fully transitioned trans people then what is the issue?

Is it seeing the opposite genders genitalia? Or that you think they are lying about their trans status so they can get a look at your bits?

Fair enough, the principle is rather similar though, no?

It's about the potential for abuse of the new rules. If we allow anyone who says they feel like the other gender to identify as such and be treated identically to the other gender, despite zero attempts at transitioning, it leaves a door open for serious problems. I think it's disingenuous to deny this.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 01:41PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

That's mad. If you're being honest, fair enough.

As a man I'd feel well capable of defending myself against a trans man if they had some negative intentions so it wouldn't be the end of the world, although it'd be a bit odd seeing a woman's body in the men's showers.

While my wife might be able to defend herself (because I'm not a sexist), I can't reasonably expect my children to defend themselves against a man-turned-woman.

And even if there is no defending or anything necessary, I don't like the idea of my daughters getting changed in the same area where there's a man (male body) also getting changed.

And why will your wife need to defend herself?

Is it that you think trans people are likely to be rapists or that you think rapists are going to pretend to be trans so they can get close to your wife in the showers?

You may think I’m mad for not caring about who sees me naked but to be honest I think you’re a bit mad with this kind of “rapists everywhere” mentality.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 21-08-2018 01:45PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

And why will your wife need to defend herself?

Is it that you think trans people are likely to be rapists or that you think rapists are going to pretend to be trans so they can get close to your wife in the showers?

You may think I’m mad for not caring about who sees me naked but to be honest I think you’re a bit mad with this kind of “rapists everywhere” mentality.

Thanks for not jumping the gun and accusing me of transphobia. It's definitely more the second case of people pretending to be trans to get into female changing areas.

It's not so much of a "rapists everywhere" mentality, the potential for voyeurism type escapades is huge. I imagine men appearing in women's changing rooms and showers could cause a fair bit of discomfort for women who are less comfortable with nudity than you are.

You may not mind who sees you naked, but do you mind who sees your daughters naked? if the women's changing room was full would you be grand sending them into the men's?

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 01:47PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Is this a problem you’ve faced a lot? Are trans women who haven’t transitioned clamouring to use the shower next to you?

I personally would have no issue with a trans person using the shower next to me.

This is your default argument for everything - has it ever happened to you personally ? Now maybe this is the tactic advocated for when arguing with the masses but it is not as coherent as you may hope. Policy and legislation has to take account of potentials as well as past experiences because otherwise both would have to be undergoing daily updates as new circumstances constantly manifest. Likewise I do not personally have to experience every circumstance for which I feel concern. If I saw a dangerous potential in a school playground for example in terms of faulty equipment I would not have to wait for actual harm before remedying the danger or advocating for it to be remedied. See how that works. That is the normal duty of care all policy and legislation is supposed to uphold.

Ash.J.Williams · 21-08-2018 01:49PM

Can I just clear one thing up... There's no such thing as cis...

Pi$$ where ever you wish...

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 01:52PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

Fair enough, the principle is rather similar though, no?

It's about the potential for abuse of the new rules. If we allow anyone who says they feel like the other gender to identify as such and be treated identically to the other gender, despite zero attempts at transitioning, it leaves a door open for serious problems. I think it's disingenuous to deny this.

I wouldn’t be making policy based on isolated incidents.

It’s pretty clear though that when it comes to prisons, some policy is needed around trans people who have a history of sexual abuse.

fattymuatty · 21-08-2018 02:00PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Has this ever happened? Has someone who appears to be Male claimed to be female so he could have a good look at naked women?

How do you feel about sharing your space with gay people?

How do you feel about sharing your space with trans people who have fully transitioned?

Yes it has happened in Target like I said.

I have no problem sharing dressing rooms with lesbians, why would I? Gay men, well I would rather not. I have no problem sharing a dressing room with a trans man.

I have no problem with sharing spaces with old school transexuals either.

I have a problem with the I say I am a woman so I am a woman and I don't care if that makes you uncomfortable.

If they want to campaign for a 3rd space I and many women would get behind their cause. Trans people should feel comfortable too but strong arming your way into sex segregated spaces isn't the way to do it.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:03PM

Merrick Jealous Monogamy wrote: »

Thanks for not jumping the gun and accusing me of transphobia. It's definitely more the second case of people pretending to be trans to get into female changing areas.

It's not so much of a "rapists everywhere" mentality, the potential for voyeurism type escapades is huge. I imagine men appearing in women's changing rooms and showers could cause a fair bit of discomfort for women who are less comfortable with nudity than you are.

You may not mind who sees you naked, but do you mind who sees your daughters naked? if the women's changing room was full would you be grand sending them into the men's?

Well the reality is that if I sent my daughters, I assume you mean older daughters and not children, (I don’t have any) into a Male changing room they wouldn’t be perved on. The men would be so fearful of looking creepy that they’d probably rather claw out their own eyes then glance at her naked.

In reality I’d probably tell her to get changed in a toilet. My own belief about public changing spaces is that if your uncomfortable with what goes on in there then you’ll have to inconvenience yourself and wait for a toilet cubicle or something. And I’m not even talking about trans issues here. I’ve met people uncomfortable at the level nudity they encounter in a public changing room. At some point you have to say tough luck.

I really think this idea of the pervs and rapists is hysteria. I know plenty of gay men who use public changing rooms. Now we could all assume that these men would be taking every opportunity to have a good look at all the swinging mickeys but in reality, all my friends have told me that their behaviour in changing rooms is even more respectful of others privacy than the straight guys are.

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 02:13PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well the reality is that if I sent my daughters, I assume you mean older daughters and not children, (I don’t have any) into a Male changing room they wouldn’t be perved on. The men would be so fearful of looking creepy that they’d probably rather claw out their own eyes then glance at her naked.

In reality I’d probably tell her to get changed in a toilet. My own belief about public changing spaces is that if your uncomfortable with what goes on in there then you’ll have to inconvenience yourself and wait for a toilet cubicle or something. And I’m not even talking about trans issues here. I’ve met people uncomfortable at the level nudity they encounter in a public changing room. At some point you have to say tough luck.

I really think this idea of the pervs and rapists is hysteria. I know plenty of gay men who use public changing rooms. Now we could all assume that these men would be taking every opportunity to have a good look at all the swinging mickeys but in reality, all my friends have told me that their behaviour in changing rooms is even more respectful of others privacy than the straight guys are.

This response is entirely founded on both anecdote and projected imaginings of what you might personally do in situations.

It just does not stand up, or hold water as you might say yourself.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:19PM

Malayalam wrote: »

This response is entirely founded on both anecdote and projected imaginings of what you might personally do in situations.

It just does not stand up, or hold water as you might say yourself.

How does it not stand up? You want a peer reviewed study that shows whether men will perv or not if a woman uses their changing area? Could you suggest how this study will be carried out?

You could just look at the numerous countries that have no issues with nude men and women sharing the same space. Last time I was in Berlin the sauna in the gym I used had nude men and women sharing the same space. And guess what? Nobody got raped. Shocking.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:19PM

Bootlegger wrote: »

Of course you have no children. Most people want single sex changing rooms. Why punish the majority to appease a minority who claim to be the opposite sex?

You're the kind of person who will defend pedophillia once the progressives tell you it's the 'correct' thing to do.

No I am not the kind of person who would defend paedophilia. How bizarre.

fattymuatty · 21-08-2018 02:21PM

And I think talking about changing rooms and toilets is a red herring in a way. Single sex spaces go so much further than that. Refuges for women escaping domestic violence, support groups for women who have experiences sexual abuse at the hands of men, hospital wards, psych wards, asking for a female Dr for a smear test, going to get measured for a bra, women only swim sessions that allow women of certain religions to swim without the male gaze, women who require carers for intimate care etc The contentious issue of womens sport is another one.

Then when women raise these issues they get shouted down, called TERFs, told they deserve to die, get harassed and intimidated.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:24PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

Yes it has happened in Target like I said.

I have no problem sharing dressing rooms with lesbians, why would I? Gay men, well I would rather not. I have no problem sharing a dressing room with a trans man.

I have no problem with sharing spaces with old school transexuals either.

I have a problem with the I say I am a woman so I am a woman and I don't care if that makes you uncomfortable.

If they want to campaign for a 3rd space I and many women would get behind their cause. Trans people should feel comfortable too but strong arming your way into sex segregated spaces isn't the way to do it.

I just looked into the Target thing.

Seems it was mostly men videoing themselves being allowed to use the bathrooms to prove a point.

Of the voyeur incidents some were before the gender neutral policy was announced, and one of the men responsible for an incident after the gender neutral policy was announced had a conviction from before the policy.

Nothing to do with trans issues at all.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:26PM

Bootlegger wrote: »

You're already defending a subnormal's right to claim he is a little girl.

What do you mean right? Anyone can call themselves whatever they like. I don’t have to defend it, it’s a given. How do you propose to stop him? And why would you bother?

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:31PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

And I think talking about changing rooms and toilets is a red herring in a way.

.........

Then when women raise these issues they get shouted down, called TERFs, told they deserve to die, get harassed and intimidated.

Talk about red herrings.

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 02:34PM

fattymuatty wrote: »

And I think talking about changing rooms and toilets is a red herring in a way. Single sex spaces go so much further than that. Refuges for women escaping domestic violence, support groups for women who have experiences sexual abuse at the hands of men, hospital wards, psych wards, asking for a female Dr for a smear test, going to get measured for a bra, women only swim sessions that allow women of certain religions to swim without the male gaze, women who require carers for intimate care etc The contentious issue of womens sport is another one.

Then when women raise these issues they get shouted down, called TERFs, told they deserve to die, get harassed and intimidated.

And according to law UK police people can carry out intimate body searches on the gender with whom they share an ''identity'' as per their Gender Recognition Certificate, a certificate which requires no transition surgery or effort to transition. But, yeah, it's all about how we are too uptight to be cool with the shy lady's with mickeys in the girls showers.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/07/23/new-search-rules-for-trans-police-officers-and-suspects-drawn-up/

Brian? · 21-08-2018 02:39PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

They can identify as a woman and therefore it would be discriminatory to exclude them from women's restrooms.

Surely?

Honestly, I couldn’t care less what jacks anyone used. So why not, it’s discrimination.

Why are the toilets people use such an issue?

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:43PM

Bootlegger wrote: »

Freak should be a mental asylum. But hey I don't expect a future cat lady to understand why children need to protected from deviants.

Nods politely.

LLMMLL · 21-08-2018 02:44PM

Malayalam wrote: »

And according to law UK police people can carry out intimate body searches on the gender with whom they share an ''identity'' as per their Gender Recognition Certificate, a certificate which requires no transition surgery or effort to transition. But, yeah, it's all about how we are too uptight to be cool with the shy lady's with mickeys in the girls showers.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/07/23/new-search-rules-for-trans-police-officers-and-suspects-drawn-up/

What’s your concern there?

Brian? · 21-08-2018 02:46PM

Is it me, or do most of the objections around accepting trans people come down to sharing changing rooms or toilets?

I genuinely find the taboos around nudity bizarre. Now, I go along with them as a matter what of politeness to other peoples comfort levels. But honestly, why are we so hung up on nudity? Why is it so import to hide?

Malayalam · 21-08-2018 02:47PM

Brian? wrote: »

Honestly, I couldn’t care less what jacks anyone used. So why not, it’s discrimination.

Why are the toilets people use such an issue?

The toilets thing is not such a big deal with me, toilets are omnisex in every home, and if I am at an event I will often enough use the men's loos because, damn, those queues for the ladies are unreal. Though if I consider more widely than me, perhaps elderly ladies with continence problems might find it awkward to have a bunch of young fellas larking about in the loos. Or younger women experiencing the 1 in 5 pregnancies that end in miscarriage, and very often in a public toilet, might feel a tad uneasy with elder gents in the queue. Don't know. It's possible, I would say. Why not have all three options? Male, female, and however you are feeling yourself?

Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

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