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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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  • #1022
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that for a second... but surely your regular congregation at the weekend shows your support for the church and its lay people.

    By attending next Sunday - you are showing your support for the leadership of the church which is an entirely different thing. It is the pope like.

    I can see why you would want to convince yourself otherwise but I can't see how it could be considered in any other way really.

    But my opinions shouldn't matter to you. Hope you enjoy that day and get what you want out of it.

    Most are going because of thier religious believes rather than supporting the Church. The Catholic Church is probably the most corrupt organisations in the world but just because you go to the mass next week does not mean you are supporting the corruption but going for the love of your religion.

    FIFA is also another hugely corrupt world organisation. Everyone knows Qatar bribed them to get 2022 World Cup. But for all the fans that go to it will not be supporting FIFA's corruption but going to support thier country in a sport they love.


  • #1023
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Most likely I’d be called a coward or told I’m running and hiding from the truth - or something like that.

    I appreciate the support IrishGrover, thanks. It’s a hard position to be in.

    It's not a hard position to be in at all. The survivors of abuse are the ones in the difficult position. You are not a victim here.

    You say you don't support the church and don't go to mass in general, but are going to the mass in the phoenix park? Am I reading right? I wouldn't go to a concert of a music act I don't support, even though in general I like music.


  • #1024
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,833 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Jesus himself said, of anyone mistreating a child, that it would be better to have a millstone tied onto their neck and cast into the sea.
    The RCC as an institution, including its leadership have simply ignored their own founder.


  • #1025
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    Most are going because of thier religious believes rather than supporting the Church. The Catholic Church is probably the most corrupt organisations in the world but just because you go to the mass next week does not mean you are supporting the corruption but going for the love of your religion.

    FIFA is also another hugely corrupt world organisation. Everyone knows Qatar bribed them to get 2022 World Cup. But for all the fans that go to it will not be supporting FIFA's corruption but going to support thier country in a sport they love.

    But when people go to a football match, they're not being preached to by FIFA on how to live their lives like good people. They're there to watch a match. When a priest is standing in front of you preaching about how a good person should live, how can you not question what he knows, or knew or what he did? How can there be a trust there, when so many who held themselves up to be shining examples turned out to be total scum in reality?


  • #1026
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    TheIrishGrover wrote: »
    That's it? "I don't see so I assume nothing's happening and I don't care"? What about manufacturing?

    At lease you did reply, which you didn't need to. Seems you are the only one. Yet everyone still seems to be demanding replies from Audrey. And before you say "She doesn't need to reply either" what would be the general census here is she said "Y'know what? I won't reply"?

    if you have evidence of sex abuse of children and a subsequent cover-up by any company please post it. I wouldn't support any company that was involved in anything like that. the church isn't producing a product though and there is only a few ways to support them. I believe going to events this weekend is one. I can't understand why people are able to do it.


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  • #1027
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    It's not a hard position to be in at all. The survivors of abuse are the ones in the difficult position. You are not a victim here.

    You say you don't support the church and don't go to mass in general, but are going to the mass in the phoenix park? Am I reading right? I wouldn't go to a concert of a music act I don't support, even though in general I like music.


    Of course they are. I’m not trying to demean them at all.

    I’m getting tired of having to justify myself though - I’m going to mass for the reasons I’ve already given. Nothing more, nothing less.


  • #1028
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Of course they are. I’m not trying to demean them at all.

    I’m getting tired of having to justify myself though - I’m going to mass for the reasons I’ve already given. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I wasn't asking you to justify yourself at all. I just don't understand the contradiction, how mass every sunday you boycott, but this one you're going to to support the good people of the church.

    The people who are going to the WMOF in the RDS would have been listening to the 'good word' of Wuerl, all the while he covered up abuse in Pittsburgh (allegedly). How can you be sure the people you'll be listening to in the PP haven't been involved in something sinister too?


  • #1029
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Its only a hard position to be in because that is the decision you have made.

    You say yourself that religion is different than faith, you don't need the CC to continue your faith. You don't need to support the organisation in order to live with Jesus.

    That is a decision you have made. You have decided, that despite the continued terrible stories that we hear (despite being told that the church has changed each time), despite the church continuing to class woman as inferior to men that you are willing to overlook all of this so that you can feel connected.

    Nobody is blaming you personally, but here is a chance for people to show their dislike of all of this and instead you will show up to give these people the appearance that X number of people still support them. You can say that that isn't what you are doing, but in years to come the only story wil be X number of people turned up in the Park to see the Pope, there will not be a byline that many of them had reservations about the inner workings of the church.

    And its a hard position? Really? You are free to attend mass, free to have prayers said in public, heck free to close the entire city down for a day so that your leader can hold a rally. Hard position? Come off it. Are there protests outside your church? Your childrens school? Are your children or yourself or your family treated differently because of their religion? Because they go to mass?

    Because the CC treats gay people differently. Treats women differently. Thats a fecking hard position to be in. When the person you were born as, be that gay or a woman or whatever, is treated as a lessor human being just on that fact. A fact that you can do nothing about. That hard. Its not a hard position because you feel somewhat guilty for continuing to support and organisation despite all the things you know about it.


  • #1030
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    It's not a hard position to be in at all. The survivors of abuse are the ones in the difficult position. You are not a victim here.

    You say you don't support the church and don't go to mass in general, but are going to the mass in the phoenix park? Am I reading right? I wouldn't go to a concert of a music act I don't support, even though in general I like music.

    I have more respect for the people who go to mass of a Sunday. The average priest in the average parish is as powerless as we are. To go on Sunday is different, this is the hierarchy itself. The very people who were directly involved in covering up the abuse of innocent children. How can anyone bear to be in the same airspace as such people let alone let them preach about family? You couldn't make it up. It's a real slap in the face to those who were victims.


  • #1031
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I have more respect for the people who go to mass of a Sunday. The average priest in the average parish is as powerless as we are. To go on Sunday is different, this is the hierarchy itself. The very people who were directly involved in covering up the abuse of innocent children. How can anyone bear to be in the same airspace as such people let alone let them preach about family? You couldn't make it up. It's a real slap in the face to those who were victims.

    TBH I really hoped the reaction would be different. I will be at Colm O'Gorman's gathering in the Garden of Remembrance and I would hope there would be more protests like it around the Country.


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  • #1032
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I wasn't asking you to justify yourself at all. I just don't understand the contradiction, how mass every sunday you boycott, but this one you're going to to support the good people of the church.

    The people who are going to the WMOF in the RDS would have been listening to the 'good word' of Wuerl, all the while he covered up abuse in Pittsburgh (allegedly). How can you be sure the people you'll be listening to in the PP haven't been involved in something sinister too?

    It’s not so much a boycott as laziness on my part. I’m often out on Saturday nights and struggle to get out of bed the following morning :P

    I can’t be sure of course but given that many of those accused in America have pulled out I take it in good faith that those remaining are ok.


  • #1033
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    But when people go to a football match, they're not being preached to by FIFA on how to live their lives like good people. They're there to watch a match. When a priest is standing in front of you preaching about how a good person should live, how can you not question what he knows, or knew or what he did? How can there be a trust there, when so many who held themselves up to be shining examples turned out to be total scum in reality?

    In the same way people go to football matchs because they like football. People go to mass because they like being preached too. Most priests are not corrupt and would thought if people did know of a corrupt priest they would boycott the mass.

    And in your example how could anybody trust a referee descion in a fifa world cup match?


  • #1034
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I can’t be sure of course but given that many of those accused in America have pulled out I take it in good faith that those remaining are ok.

    But past evidence would suggest that that isn't the case.

    Each time we are told things have changed, we find out something new. Check out the reporting on the US recent grand jury, and the Cardinal there is heavily criticised throughout the report. Has he been suspended? Removed from office? Of course not. Now compare that to a company that finds an employee has been scamming customers. Would you respect that company if they simply asked for forgiveness and lef tthe employee in place. And we are talking multiple times more important in these child abuse cases

    Surely you should be wanting to see the evidence that things have changed rather than simply hope for it?


  • #1035
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,138 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Surely you should be wanting to see the evidence that things have changed rather than simply hope for it?
    Maybe we should have a bit of an aul pray.


  • #1036
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    But past evidence would suggest that that isn't the case.

    Each time we are told things have changed, we find out something new.

    Surely you should be wanting to see the evidence that things have changed rather than simply hope for it?

    So we should assume that every priest is a paedophile?


  • #1037
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Sam Quentin wrote: »
    Your sick.

    No, it's your sick, you clean it up.


  • #1038
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    It’s not so much a boycott as laziness on my part. I’m often out on Saturday nights and struggle to get out of bed the following morning :P

    I can’t be sure of course but given that many of those accused in America have pulled out I take it in good faith that those remaining are ok.

    The ones who pulled out only did so because they were exposed to the public and only then because of immense pressure I'd imagine. Do you really think the higher ups didn't know? Until the story broke they were perfectly happy to invite then to come here and talk about family and children. Men involved in child abuse talking about family....I have no idea how you can't see the problem there.


  • #1039
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,688 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    It’s not so much a boycott as laziness on my part. I’m often out on Saturday nights and struggle to get out of bed the following morning :P
    You probably need to put down that shovel at this stage : expressing your faith is less important to you than getting locked on a Sarurday night, but more important than showing your solidarity with raped and abused children by staying away from a meeting to support those who covered up that abuse?
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I can’t be sure of course but given that many of those accused in America have pulled out I take it in good faith that those remaining are ok.
    No indeed you can't be sure. Remember how the Vatican refused the resignation of a number of those involved? Their record is one of blatant disregard for victims and any who have pulled out have only done so because their position became completely untenable thanks to the (non-religious) media.

    So all we can be sure of is that some of those who have been caught by outsiders have pulled out. You're happy with that, but most of us aren't.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #1040
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,907 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    In the same way people go to football matchs because they like football. People go to mass because they like being preached too. Most priests are not corrupt and would thought if people did know of a corrupt priest they would boycott the mass.

    And in your example how could anybody trust a referee descion in a fifa world cup match?
    So the mass raping of children and subsequent organisational cover ups all the while preaching at the public on morals is the same as some in FIFA taking bribes?
    You've a poor moral compass there!


  • #1041
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    volchitsa wrote: »
    You probably need to put down that shovel at this stage : expressing your faith is less important to you than getting locked on a Sarurday night, but more important than showing your solidarity with raped and abused children by staying away from a meeting to support those who covered up that abuse?


    No indeed you can't be sure. Remember how the Vatican refused the resignation of a number of those involved? Their record is one of blatant disregard for victims and any who have pulled out have only done so because their position became completely untenable thanks to the (non-religious) media.

    So all we can be sure of is that some of those who have been caught by outsiders have pulled out. You're happy with that, but most of us aren't.

    How dare you? So because I have a social life I don’t care about the abuse or accepting it?

    I was merely trying to lighten the mood. It was a joke.


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  • #1042
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,688 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    So the mass raping of children and subsequent organisational cover ups all the while preaching at the public on morals is the same as some in FIFA taking bribes?
    You've a poor moral compass there!

    Well naturally. What can you expect of someone whose moral compass is informed by a bunch of child rapists and their supporters? Because that is literally what they are at this stage.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #1043
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,052 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Eric Savory Misogyny wrote: »
    So we should assume that every priest is a paedophile?

    No, why would we? Should we assume that the CC is still looking after itself rather than putting the needs of people first? Yes, absolutely.

    The organisation has shown itself to be more interested in protecting itself than the victims. They have done nothing to change that point of view. So why would anybody think the CC has changed.

    The current hierarchy were all brought up in that mindset, that the CC must be protected. I agree with McAleese, its not even really the Popes fault, it is the way he has been brought up in the church. They need a new broom, a younger generation untouched by all this to lay out a new path.

    But for that we need to wait another, what 20/30 years. That is not good enough. Not when there is such at stake.


  • #1044
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    So the mass raping of children and subsequent organisational cover ups all the while preaching at the public on morals is the same as some in FIFA taking bribes?
    You've a poor moral compass there!

    Your response is ridiculous in the extreme.

    The catholic church has been organisationally corrupt/abusive with high ranking members involved in this corruption/abuse. Posters make the argument that no priests should be trusted for this reason.

    The poster you replied to gives the example of FIFA, where corruption is known to be rife among high ranking officials, and asks if we should no longer trust any refereeing decisions because we are aware of this corruption.


  • #1045
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I’m going to bow out now - this is an emotive topic and I don’t there will ever be a day where we all find common ground. At least not for a very long time.

    There’s not point in treading over the same ground again and again. I’ve said all I can say, I can’t change what I believe and no matter how much I try to explain my position there will be those who simply will not understand.

    If I have offended or annoyed anyone particularly anyone who has suffered at the church’s hands then I apologize. It wasn’t my intent and please don’t anyone think I don’t support the survivors to the hilt. I do and I hope those responsible are punished to the fullest extent.

    Audrey, no one is commenting on your beliefs, no one here thinks you are okay with abuse, but by attending on Sunday you WILL be showing your support for the organization responsible for the abuse. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. This is what people have a problem with.


  • #1046
    santana75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭santana75


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    No one that I can see is saying that by having faith you're supporting what the Church did, they're saying that by going to this event you're supporting what the Church did.


    Thats a bit of a leap you're making there.
    Literally every day it seems, I read about some new sexual abuse scandal in Hollywood. Women, children, men........pretty much everyone has been touched by it in that industry. Yet most people wouldnt think twice about boycotting a movie made in Hollywood. It would never even occur to them but some of the things that went on there and still do go on, are shocking.
    The catholic church messed up big time. They were given power and abused it. It all came out and they were rightly attacked and condemned for their crimes. But the thing is people will go to that mass to hear the teachings of Jesus, and the word of God. They wont go for the institution that is the church. I dont know if you are aware of this or not, but Jesus was actually put to death by the church of his day. It was religious figures who murdered him because he called them out on their BS. And I have no doubt that if Jesus was to come to us now, as he did back then, he would call out the catholic church and tear the whole thing to the ground. Its the word of God that matters and thats what people will go to the phoenix park to hear.


  • #1047
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Well naturally. What can you expect of someone whose moral compass is informed by a bunch of child rapists and their supporters? Because that is literally what they are at this stage.

    Have a chat with yourself.

    Clearly the average parish priest in this country is not a child rapist or a supporter of them.

    And to suggest that a person of faith's entire moral compass rests on the preaching of the church and that they cannot think independently is inaccurate at best.


  • #1048
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,688 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    How dare you? So because I have a social life I don’t care about the abuse or accepting it?
    No, it's because by attending the spectacle you are showing what will be interpreted by everyone, including the Vatican, as support for the Vatican's consistent refusal to cooperate in punishing child abusers. That's what they're doing, and anyone attending is cautioning their strategy. Denying that you are doing so is like voting for Fianna Fáil while complaining about what they did to the economy.
    I was merely trying to lighten the mood. It was a joke.
    So you can joke but nobody else can? (The shovel analogy is not literal, you know.) You should probably make up your mind, are you going to take it thick and ask people how they dare speak to you like that, or are you going to treat it lightly? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #1049
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Pelvis wrote: »
    Audrey, no one is commenting on your beliefs, no one here thinks you are okay with abuse, but by attending on Sunday you WILL be showing your support for the organization responsible for the abuse. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. This is what people have a problem with.

    You’re conflating the two, that’s the problem.

    Look I’ve said all I can say - I’m not going to keep justifying myself to people who don’t want hear.

    I am sorry though to anyone upset or hurt by my stance.


  • #1050
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Eric Savory Misogyny wrote: »
    Your response is ridiculous in the extreme.

    The catholic church has been organisationally corrupt/abusive with high ranking members involved in this corruption/abuse. Posters make the argument that no priests should be trusted for this reason.

    The poster you replied to gives the example of FIFA, where corruption is known to be rife among high ranking officials, and asks if we should no longer trust any refereeing decisions because we are aware of this corruption.

    Seriously?
    you just compared the sexual abuse of a child to a referee decision during a match?
    ffs. :mad:


    Priests can't be trusted right now sadly, but its not their fault. its because the Vatican still see's Canon Law as more important then Civil Law. Its because they believe what is said in confession should remain secret.

    So until this changes and PROPER reporting is put in place overseen by a independent body not run by the church anymore then no...sadly we can't trust priests or even Bishops etc for that matter. The awful thing is, its not even their fault and its awful on all the good priests in the church.

    This isn't avg joe priest fault though, this is the the Vatican, bishops and Archbishops. They made the abuse numbers worse by covering up abuse and moving priests and this allowing them to abuse even more kids. If they had kicked them out straight away we wouldn't be having this same discussion at all!

    honestly, i pit the avg joe priest, they've been betrayed by the church

    Oh and btw this needs to change on a few levels too, right now priests can visit schools and interact with children because they are seen as "friends" of the school. No gardai vetting even needed because of the church's special status running out state schools. A joke of a situation esp considering you or me require vetting and rightly so. Now gardai vetting isn't bullet proof, far from it. but its something.


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  • #1051
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The ones who pulled out only did so because they were exposed to the public and only then because of immense pressure I'd imagine. Do you really think the higher ups didn't know? Until the story broke they were perfectly happy to invite then to come here and talk about family and children. Men involved in child abuse talking about family....I have no idea how you can't see the problem there.

    I certainly can see the problem - that’s why I struggle with my faith. But it is what it is. I can’t just turn it off however bad it makes me look.

    Again eviltwin I’m sorry for what happened to you and I honestly and genuinely do not support it regardless of my beliefs.


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