Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Cabaal · 20-08-2018 09:17AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It feels like it is though and I can tell that you others on this thread think that way even if you don’t admit it. Some of you even assume I am ok with child abuse and all the other crimes committed by the church which is hurtful and unfair.

To be fair I’m more a lapsed Catholic- I don’t go to church and just say my own prayers privately when I feel the need. I don’t subscribe to the church’s darker teachings at all.

I suppose I say I’m Catholic because how else can I describe myself - I’m Not Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist.

You say darker teachings but the catholic church doesn't see these as dark or anything wrong with them at all. They are just part of what you should believe in and follow if you are a catholic.

Why not just say you are a christian? You can still believe in god, Jesus etc but it means you don't need to subscribe to the catholic church and its policy's, views and core beliefs and most importantly it shows you don't support them anymore,.

I'm being serious, don't just call yourself a catholic because thats what you were baptised into. You can change!.

I know plenty of people that were baptised, did communion, married in catholic church. But now they do believe in a god, don't go to mass but they will often say little prayers to themselves. They see themselves as christian or just spiritual....they want nothing to do with the catholic church because of the way the church on all levels has failed in such criminal ways.

murpho999 · 20-08-2018 09:18AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It feels like it is though and I can tell that you others on this thread think that way even if you don’t admit it. Some of you even assume I am ok with child abuse and all the other crimes committed by the church which is hurtful and unfair.

To be fair I’m more a lapsed Catholic- I don’t go to church and just say my own prayers privately when I feel the need. I don’t subscribe to the church’s darker teachings at all.

I suppose I say I’m Catholic because how else can I describe myself - I’m Not Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist.

I don't think anybody thinks you are ok with that at all but you are going to an event organised by a church that has attempted to cover up these crimes, protect the criminals and still will not meet the victims.

So why would anybody want to be involved in anyway with an organisation like that?

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:20AM

murpho999 wrote: »

But by going to their event on Saturday and seeing their leader is supporting them.

How can you not see that?

But I don’t at all and I don’t know how many different ways I can say it.

I think child abuse is the worst and most heinous crime you can commit and the ones who do deserve an protracted and painful death.

I’m going to the mass simply to support the good people in the church, nothing more nothing less.

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:23AM

Cabaal wrote: »

You say darker teachings but the catholic church doesn't see these as dark or anything wrong with them at all. They are just part of what you should believe in and follow if you are a catholic.

Why not just say you are a christian? You can still believe in god, Jesus etc but it means you don't need to subscribe to the catholic church and its policy's, views and core beliefs and most importantly it shows you don't support them anymore,.

I'm being serious, don't just call yourself a catholic because thats what you were baptised into. You can change!.

I know plenty of people that were baptised, did communion, married in catholic church. But now they do believe in a god, don't go to mass but they will often say little prayers to themselves. They see themselves as christian or just spiritual....they want nothing to do with the catholic church because of the way the church on all levels has failed in such criminal ways.

Yes I suppose Christian would be more accurate - no I can’t change my beliefs, I tried and it didn’t work for me. But I guess I’m going to have change what I call myself because people certainly do seem to think I’ll of me as it is and it’s not nice to be on the receiving end of it.

Discodog · 20-08-2018 09:24AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But I don’t at all and I don’t know how many different ways I can say it.

I think child abuse is the worst and most heinous crime you can commit and the ones who do deserve an protracted and painful death.

I’m going to the mass simply to support the good people in the church, nothing more nothing less.

But how good is someone if they know of abuse & do nothing to protect children ? The church is guilty but so are the State & the majority of it's people who did nothing to stop it.

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:24AM

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't think anybody thinks you are ok with that at all but you are going to an event organised by a church that has attempted to cover up these crimes, protect the criminals and still will not meet the victims.

So why would anybody want to be involved in anyway with an organisation like that?

Everyone on this thread seems to think that and I understand why but it’s unfair and untrue.

ohnonotgmail · 20-08-2018 09:26AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Everyone on this thread seems to think that and I understand why but it’s unfair and untrue.

what part of that post was unfair and untrue?

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:26AM

Discodog wrote: »

But how good is someone if they know of abuse & do nothing to protect children ? The church is guilty but so are the State & the majority of it's people who did nothing to stop it.

Of course they are. But not everyone knew and that needs to be acknowledged.

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:27AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what part of that post was unfair and untrue?

Not that post but the general feeling from this thread that if you have faith it gives people carte Blanche to assume you support and are ok with the terrible things the church did.

Seth Brundle · 20-08-2018 09:28AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m going to the mass simply to support the good people in the church, nothing more nothing less.

How will people know that you're there to support the good people and not those such as Cardinal Wuerl's replacement who may have done acts just as heinous? Are you bringing a big sign saying "I don't support the evil people in the church"?
Will you clap when Frank takes the stage? Will you pray along with him?

eviltwin · 20-08-2018 09:31AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Of course they are. But not everyone knew and that needs to be acknowledged.

but they know now.

I don't know why religion gets a pass. Sure people have faith and it's important to them but that doesn't matter. It's still supporting an organisation that continues to abuse and sees nothing wrong with it.

Discodog · 20-08-2018 09:32AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Of course they are. But not everyone knew and that needs to be acknowledged.

Really ? You really believe that some priests didn't know ? Virtually every school & parent thought it acceptable to beat children. If one is ok with that then it opens the door to further abuse.

By the way I admire & thank you for posting here & trying to explain. Most just stay silent.

Cabaal · 20-08-2018 09:33AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But I don’t at all and I don’t know how many different ways I can say it.

I think child abuse is the worst and most heinous crime you can commit and the ones who do deserve an protracted and painful death.

I’m going to the mass simply to support the good people in the church, nothing more nothing less.

So dispite what the Vatican has done you still want to support it and you see no issue with that?

i've used this example before, but imagine if the GAA covered up sexual abuse of children for decades.
Imagine that when this came to light the GAA called the victims liars, refused to co-operate with victims and it was clear that they covered up abuse at the highest level.

Now fast forward to now, imagine that the GAA leadership still refuses to co-operate with abuse investigations in every county. Imagine they still refuse to compensate abuse victims and even the idea of meeting with abuse victims is a afterthought for them.

Oh and lets also imagine the GAA hates gay people too,,,,and women.

Would you think giving money to the GAA, playing for the GAA, going to GAA matches and signing your kid up to play for the GAA means you are NOT supporting the GAA?

Because all you have to do is replace GAA with Catholic church and you are doing exactly that.

eviltwin · 20-08-2018 09:42AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Not that post but the general feeling from this thread that if you have faith it gives people carte Blanche to assume you support and are ok with the terrible things the church did.

It's not an endorsement of abuse but it's an endorsement of the lack of action

TheIrishGrover · 20-08-2018 09:42AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How will people know that you're there to support the good people and not those such as Cardinal Wuerl's replacement who may have done acts just as heinous? Are you bringing a big sign saying "I don't support the evil people in the church"?
Will you clap when Frank takes the stage? Will you pray along with him?

Why should he care what people think? He has explained here why he is going there. Why is is anyone else's business why he's there? His - anyone's right to support what he believes in is EXACTLY THE SAME as other's right to disagree. A person's right to protest is NOT superior to another person't right to support.

He does NOT have to justify his beliefs/support. And a protester does NOT have the right to make him justify.

I was raised Catholic but have considered myself atheist for 30 years. I support the Pope visiting. I support people's right to believe. I believe there are good people in the Catholic church as well as evil. Like any organization. I do not believe that ANY people going to see the Pope condone their actions against children in any way.

Tell me. Have you stopped watching BBC? or BBC-produced shows? I presume you have given their support of abusers. How about Apple or Nike or, basically ANY clothing manufacturer given their long history of child abuse/working conditions.

Who made that high-horse you sit on?

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:44AM

Folks I don’t know how much more I can say here - I’ve tried my best to explain my position and I understand that there are those who will never see me as anything other than a child abuse enabler because of my faith. All I can I say I am not, never have been and never will be.

I cannot, as I said already, change my beliefs. I tried and it didn’t sit right with me at all. It’s not something you can just turn off but I’m sorry if it has caused anyone here upset or anger. That’s not intent at all.

Simply put I hate what the church as an organization has become and what it has done to this country. But I also know that not every single solitary member is evil personified and it is them I would support.

I think I’ll start referring to myself as Christian from now on though - it seems much easier.

lawred2 · 20-08-2018 09:44AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But I don’t at all and I don’t know how many different ways I can say it.

I think child abuse is the worst and most heinous crime you can commit and the ones who do deserve an protracted and painful death.

I’m going to the mass simply to support the good people in the church, nothing more nothing less.

that looks like cognitive dissonance to me

vicwatson · 20-08-2018 09:49AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Folks I don’t know how much more I can say here - I’ve tried my best to explain my position and I understand that there are those who will never see me as anything other than a child abuse enabler because of my faith. All I can I say I am not, never have been and never will be.

I cannot, as I said already, change my beliefs. I tried and it didn’t sit right with me at all. It’s not something you can just turn off but I’m sorry if it has caused anyone here upset or anger. That’s not intent at all.

Simply put I hate what the church as an organization has become and what it has done to this country. But I also know that not every single solitary member is evil personified and it is them I would support.

I think I’ll start referring to myself as Christian from now on though - it seems much easier.

STILL here :eek:

TheIrishGrover · 20-08-2018 09:50AM

C'mon folks. BBC. You watch it? Programs made by it? Not even Match of The Day? Oh I love me some Match of The Day. I must be a supporter of Jimmy Savile etc.
I do also love my clothes. I gotta say, the less Children are paid the better I feel........

C'mon.... JUSTIFY TO ME!!!!!!!! why you still watch it. It's YOUR DUTY to justify to ME!!! why you support these organizations. And if you do not/cannot then you are just as bad as them.

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:51AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Why should he care what people think? He has explained here why he is going there. Why is is anyone else's business why he's there? His - anyone's right to support what he believes in is EXACTLY THE SAME as other's right to disagree. A person's right to protest is NOT superior to another person't right to support.

He does NOT have to justify his beliefs/support. And a protester does NOT have the right to make him justify.

I was raised Catholic but have considered myself atheist for 30 years. I support the Pope visiting. I support people's right to believe. I believe there are good people in the Catholic church as well as evil. Like any organization. I do not believe that ANY people going to see the Pope condone their actions against children in any way.

Tell me. Have you stopped watching BBC? or BBC-produced shows? I presume you have given their support of abusers. How about Apple or Nike or, basically ANY clothing manufacturer given their long history of child abuse/working conditions.

Who made that high-horse you sit on?

Thanks for that and I’m a she just so you know ☺️

To be fair I think many of the posters here are those who were hurt by the church or are close to those who were so I do understand their position.

But I don’t understand why saying I believe in God or I support the good people and good works of the church means I think child abuse is ok.

As I keep saying crimes against children sicken me.

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:52AM

vicwatson wrote: »

STILL here :eek:

Yes - I took a break and feel better able for it today. Sorry if that offends you.

eviltwin · 20-08-2018 09:53AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

C'mon folks. BBC. You watch it? Programs made by it? Not even Match of The Day? Oh I love me some Match of The Day. I must be a supporter of Jimmy Savile etc.
I do also love my clothes. I gotta say, the less Children are paid the better I feel........

C'mon.... JUSTIFY TO ME!!!!!!!! why you still watch it. It's YOUR DUTY to justify to ME!!! why you support these organizations. And if you do not/cannot then you are just as bad as them.

Ate the BBC still actively hiding child abusers? Have they moved them to other channels in developing countries?

TheIrishGrover · 20-08-2018 09:56AM

eviltwin wrote: »

Ate the BBC still actively hiding child abusers? Have they moved them to other channels in developing countries?

I don't know. Do YOU? Are there more there that haven't been identified yet? What about manufacturers?

lawred2 · 20-08-2018 09:56AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Thanks for that and I’m a she just so you know ☺️

To be fair I think many of the posters here are those who were hurt by the church or are close to those who were so I do understand their position.

But I don’t understand why saying I believe in God or I support the good people and good works of the church means I think child abuse is ok.

As I keep saying crimes against children sicken me.

I wouldn't say that for a second... but surely your regular congregation at the weekend shows your support for the church and its lay people.

By attending next Sunday - you are showing your support for the leadership of the church which is an entirely different thing. It is the pope like.

I can see why you would want to convince yourself otherwise but I can't see how it could be considered in any other way really.

But my opinions shouldn't matter to you. Hope you enjoy that day and get what you want out of it.

eviltwin · 20-08-2018 09:58AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I don't know. Do YOU? Are there more there that haven't been identified yet? What about manufacturers?

Haven't a clue but I know the church do and that's enough of a reason to stay away.

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 09:59AM

lawred2 wrote: »

I wouldn't say that for a second... but surely your regular congregation at the weekend shows your support for the church and its lay people.

By attending next Sunday - you are showing your support for the leadership of the church which is an entirely different thing.

I can see why you would want to convince yourself otherwise but I can't see how it could be considered in any other way really.

But my opinions shouldn't matter to you. Hope you enjoy that day and get what you want out of it.

It matters to me if people think I condone child abuse just because I’m choosing to up the park on Saturday. That matters a lot to me because it casts unfair and completely untrue aspersions on me.

Let me clear - I abhor any crime against children. I abhor any attempt to cover it up. I support the survivors to the hilt and applaud their strength and bravery.

I support the Pope himself as an individual and the good people and works of the church.

My personal faith does not change that.

TheIrishGrover · 20-08-2018 10:01AM

eviltwin wrote: »

Haven't a clue but I know the church do and that's enough of a reason to stay away.

That's it? "I don't see so I assume nothing's happening and I don't care"? What about manufacturing?

At lease you did reply, which you didn't need to. Seems you are the only one. Yet everyone still seems to be demanding replies from Audrey. And before you say "She doesn't need to reply either" what would be the general census here is she said "Y'know what? I won't reply"?

Hannibal_Smith · 20-08-2018 10:03AM

Cardinal Wuerl who was to talk at the WMOF in the RDS has pulled out in the wake of accusations that he covered abuse in Pittsburgh from 1988-2006!!

Sean O'Malley has also pulled out of the WMOF in Dublin following abuse allegations in Boston and ignoring allegations about another Cardinal's actions in New York.

These are the people that would have been there this weekend. The people would have been listening to and applauding. How many others are there?

AudreyHepburn · 20-08-2018 10:03AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

That's it? "I don't see so I assume nothing's happening and I don't care"? What about manufacturing?

At lease you did reply, which you didn't need to. Seems you are the only one. Yet everyone still seems to be demanding replies from Audrey. And before you say "She doesn't need to reply either" what would be the general census here is she said "Y'know what? I won't reply"?

Most likely I’d be called a coward or told I’m running and hiding from the truth - or something like that.

I appreciate the support IrishGrover, thanks.

Hannibal_Smith · 20-08-2018 10:07AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

That's it? "I don't see so I assume nothing's happening and I don't care"? What about manufacturing?

At lease you did reply, which you didn't need to. Seems you are the only one. Yet everyone still seems to be demanding replies from Audrey. And before you say "She doesn't need to reply either" what would be the general census here is she said "Y'know what? I won't reply"?

TBH your posts are coming across as hysterical shouting, so i'm just scrolling by them

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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