Female sexual harassers and double standards

PlaneSpeeking · 15-08-2018 11:48AM

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

I didn't realize that women campaigned to have female sexual harassment taken seriously. I thought the position was that all sexual harassment should be condemned. Apparently not.

Not at all, modern feminism couldn't give two ****es for true equality.

It's all about women.

Amirani · 15-08-2018 11:50AM

Grayson wrote: »

The OP never said "some women". They never said "those women" The OP said women. And it wasn't just once.

In fairness, the rhetoric from many (probably most) vocal feminists never uses those caveats either. The language is always along the lines of "Men need to...", "men are responsible for..."

When people attempt to challenge those statements (in exactly the way you've done), it descends into a #NotAllMen bashing. There's a clear hypocrisy in how these things are viewed. Obviously the incidence is greatly weighted from one gender to another, but that doesn't mean that other incidents are less valid. I'm not sure it's any justification to the victim in this case that more women are victims of sexual assault than men. The particular commentator who criticised the use of Title IX because it's not a female victim is awful.

LLMMLL · 15-08-2018 11:53AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Someone get LLMMLL..

I’m here.

I believe the Male in this case. Just like I’d believe a woman in similar circumstances.

There’s no issue with feminism here other than many people whether they be feminist, anti-feminist, Fine Gael supporters, vegans, trump supporters etc etc throw their principles out the window to defend a friend.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-08-2018 11:55AM

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Women have campaigned hard over years to have female sexual harassment taken seriously.

I didn't realize that women campaigned to have female sexual harassment taken seriously. I thought the position was that all sexual harassment should be condemned. Apparently not.

Well now you know. Everyone is free to campfire any pet cause they like. Were you expecting women and feminists to do your homework for you?

Like I said if men don’t take male sexual harassment seriously (as evidenced by the thread mentioned above) then why fight on all fronts?

They got female sexual harassment taken seriously which proves it can be done. So the choice is to either do something to have Male sexual harassment taken more seriously or look for ways to make it all feminists’ fault. I wonder which one the big brave vocal bucks of Boards will choose. LOL.

Amirani · 15-08-2018 11:56AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m here.

I believe the Male in this case. Just like I’d believe a woman in similar circumstances.

There’s no issue with feminism here other than many people whether they be feminist, anti-feminist, Fine Gael supporters, vegans, trump supporters etc etc throw their principles out the window to defend a friend.

Many of those doing the defending aren't actually friends with the assaulter whatsoever though. Those doing the defending aren't really much better than those who would've defended Harvey Weinstein etc.

optogirl · 15-08-2018 12:03PM

Amirani wrote: »

Those doing the defending aren't really much better than those who would've defended Harvey Weinstein etc.

correct.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-08-2018 12:04PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I believe the Male in this case. Just like I’d believe a woman in similar circumstances.

To be fair, I can’t say I know enough about the case to say I believe anything. I trust the investigation was carried out honestly so I can work from that assumption, but I don’t believe anything with so little knowledge.

It’s fine to reserve belief and just work with he evidence we have available (which is very limited in this case).

I don’t like #ibelieveher/him as it means jumping to a conclusion.

LLMMLL · 15-08-2018 12:05PM

Amirani wrote: »

Many of those doing the defending aren't actually friends with the assaulter whatsoever though. Those doing the defending aren't really much better than those who would've defended Harvey Weinstein etc.

It seems like the main thrust of defence is a letter where the signatories claimed to know the professor and some also knew the student.

optogirl · 15-08-2018 12:06PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

To be fair, I can’t say I know enough about the case to say I believe anything. I trust the investigation was carried out honestly so I can work from that assumption, but I don’t believe anything with so little knowledge.

It’s fine to reserve belief and just work with he evidence we have available (which is very limited in this case).

I don’t like #ibelieveher/him as it means jumping to a conclusion.

True in a lot of cases but the emails etc pretty much back his version of events up - even the emails alone are completely inappropriate - she simply should not have been engaging in that kind of conversation with a subordinate.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 15-08-2018 12:06PM

Amirani wrote: »

Those doing the defending aren't really much better than those who would've defended Harvey Weinstein etc.

Even worse, IMO, because those who defended Harvey Weinstein hadn't built their careers out of arguing that sexual harassment is bad.

optogirl · 15-08-2018 12:08PM

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

Even worse, IMO, because those who defended Harvey Weinstein hadn't built their careers out of arguing that sexual harassment is bad.

Who are you referring to? I have only seen the letter signed by her friends/colleagues because it was a prominent feminist who tweeted about it pointing at its sh**iness.

LLMMLL · 15-08-2018 12:10PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

To be fair, I can’t say I know enough about the case to say I believe anything. I trust the investigation was carried out honestly so I can work from that assumption, but I don’t believe anything with so little knowledge.

It’s fine to reserve belief and just work with he evidence we have available (which is very limited in this case).

I don’t like #ibelieveher/him as it means jumping to a conclusion.

If there’s a criminal trial, the standards of the jury should be higher than mine, the standards demanded by the justice system.

The university should follow its own procedures, which it probably did and found her at fault.

For me, the university report, plus the info we’ve seen, plus the commonalities of this mans report with the reports of women who have suffered harrassment, all lead me to believe him.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-08-2018 12:12PM

optogirl wrote: »

True in a lot of cases but the emails etc pretty much back his version of events up - even the emails alone are completely inappropriate - she simply should not have been engaging in that kind of conversation with a subordinate.

That’s fair enough. I haven’t seen the emails nor am I going to look for them. I trust the conclusion of the investigation that she harassed this guy.

If she did it and a proper court finds her guilty, I hope they throw the book at her. I also hope it doesn’t hinder the guy’s career to have been dragged through the mud as happens accusers in these circumstances.

Cilantro2000 · 15-08-2018 12:20PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well now you know. Everyone is free to campfire any pet cause they like. Were you expecting women and feminists to do your homework for you?

Like I said if men don’t take male sexual harassment seriously (as evidenced by the thread mentioned above) then why fight on all fronts?

They got female sexual harassment taken seriously which proves it can be done. So the choice is to either do something to have Male sexual harassment taken more seriously or look for ways to make it all feminists’ fault. I wonder which one the big brave vocal bucks of Boards will choose. LOL.

If gender equality is important to feminists one would think they would campaign against harrasment of men by women also.

PlaneSpeeking · 15-08-2018 12:22PM

Cilantro2000 wrote: »

If gender equality is important to feminists one would think they would campaign against harrasment of men by women also.

I've been told by a feminist colleague that my support for gay rights was wrong as it takes away from "our issues".

Told her to f**k off. The gay community have been more welcoming and accepting than other women ever have. They've got my loyalty.

Was tempted to throw a "that's me exercising girl power" but she's 26 and I doubt has heard of the Spice Girls.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-08-2018 12:22PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

If there’s a criminal trial, the standards of the jury should be higher than mine, the standards demanded by the justice system.

The university should follow its own procedures, which it probably did and found her at fault.

For me, the university report, plus the info we’ve seen, plus the commonalities of this mans report with the reports of women who have suffered harrassment, all lead me to believe him.

I think that’s s true. I think I’m not willing to believe very many things. It bound gown to the difference between trust and belief. For me the standard of belief is much higher than a working assumption of trust.

Based on the evidence and the investigation conclusions, I’m perfectly willing to work from the assumption that he’s telling the truth and she committed sexual harassment. I’m completely open to changing my mind if the evidence changes. I’d apply that standard to all cases like this where I don’t really have any actual first hand knowledge.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 15-08-2018 12:23PM

optogirl wrote: »

Who are you referring to? I have only seen the letter signed by her friends/colleagues because it was a prominent feminist who tweeted about it pointing at its sh**iness.

I'm referring to the dozens of feminists and other academics (including men) who signed the letter. Brian Leiter has a copy of it on his blog. The first signatory is Judith Butler, one of the most influential feminist theorists in the world today.

The letter praises Ronell’s “brilliant scholarship" and laments the damage done to her reputation. But imagine people praising Kevin Spacey's brilliant acting as a defense against sexual harassment allegations.

PlaneSpeeking · 15-08-2018 12:23PM

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

I'm referring to the dozens of feminists and other academics (including men) who signed the letter. Brian Leiter has a copy of it on his blog. The first signatory is Judith Butler, one of the most influential feminist theorists in the world today.

The letter praises Ronell’s “brilliant scholarship" and laments the damage done to her reputation. But imagine people praising Kevin Spacey's brilliant acting as a defense against sexual harassment allegations.

Done that. It did not end well.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-08-2018 12:24PM

Incredibly disappointing to see the likes of Judith Butler involved in this. Slap in the face to victims tbh. I'd imagine the burden of proof was pretty damn high. Yes it's most usually women harassed by men and usually men in the position of power but that's fcuk all comfort to male victims. Can't see this guy's life in academia being easy now.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Feisar wrote: »

I don't think female harassment has the same severity attached to it.

And there's the double standard.

Still waiting on your Cool Girl Medal and Certificate of Male Approval to arrive, huh? I'm sure they're in the post, you can relax a bit.

Cilantro2000 · 15-08-2018 12:25PM

Dangelo Clever Sluggishness wrote: »

Incredibly disappointing to see the likes of Judith Butler involved in this. Slap in the face to victims tbh. I'd imagine the burden of proof was pretty damn high. Yes it's most usually women harassed by men and usually men in the position of power but that's fcuk all comfort to male victims. Can't see this guy's life in academia being easy now.

Still waiting on your Cool Girl Medal and Certificate of Male Approval to arrive, huh? I'm sure they're in the post, you can relax a bit.

Why are you attacking a poster?

El_Duderino 09 · 15-08-2018 12:27PM

Cilantro2000 wrote: »

If gender equality is important to feminists one would think they would campaign against harrasment of men by women also.

Well now you know. So how will you react? Do something about it or whinge about the fact that feminists didn’t do your homework for you?

Ps. I ask in jest. I know you’re going to continue to whinge about feminists not doing men’s rights work on men’s behalf. Then feign surprise that feminists focus on women’s issues. Rinse and repeat.

LLMMLL · 15-08-2018 12:27PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think that’s s true. I think I’m not willing to believe very many things. It bound gown to the difference between trust and belief. For me the standard of belief is much higher than a working assumption of trust.

Based on the evidence and the investigation conclusions, I’m perfectly willing to work from the assumption that he’s telling the truth and she committed sexual harassment. I’m completely open to changing my mind if the evidence changes. I’d apply that standard to all cases like this where I don’t really have any actual first hand knowledge.

Think we’re pretty much saying the same thing. I’d also change my mind if the evidence changed. “Belief” doesn’t imply certainty. That’s “knowing”.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-08-2018 12:29PM

Cilantro2000 wrote: »

Dangelo Clever Sluggishness wrote: »

Incredibly disappointing to see the likes of Judith Butler involved in this. Slap in the face to victims tbh. I'd imagine the burden of proof was pretty damn high. Yes it's most usually women harassed by men and usually men in the position of power but that's fcuk all comfort to male victims. Can't see this guy's life in academia being easy now.

Still waiting on your Cool Girl Medal and Certificate of Male Approval to arrive, huh? I'm sure they're in the post, you can relax a bit.

Why are you attacking a poster?

I'm not. Better "attack" a male one too I guess lest I undermine the entirety of feminism.

LLMMLL · 15-08-2018 12:29PM

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

I'm referring to the dozens of feminists and other academics (including men) who signed the letter. Brian Leiter has a copy of it on his blog. The first signatory is Judith Butler, one of the most influential feminist theorists in the world today.

The letter praises Ronell’s “brilliant scholarship" and laments the damage done to her reputation. But imagine people praising Kevin Spacey's brilliant acting as a defense against sexual harassment allegations.

Judith Butler is only really prominent in academic feminism. I doubt the vast vast majority of feminists have read or have any hope of understanding her work. I know I don’t.

mrkiscool2 · 15-08-2018 12:35PM

To be fair to OP, I understand the frustration. I personally don't like "Not all Men!" as it's a cop out from the actual discussion we should be having. But there is absolutely no question that some of the people who get p1ssed off at the men who say this then use "Not All Women!" arguments when it comes to that. As someone in education, seeing anything like this, particularly the huge increase in female teachers being charged and then getting a slap on the wrist, if anything, for grooming and engaging in sexual conduct with a student.

I think any harassment should be called out. It's fair and reasonable to expect people who know someone to defend them. However, there is a double standard and it needs to be rooted out. Abuse is abuse, no matter the perpetrator. We shouldn't belittle anyone for expressing their concerns unless it's proven to be a lie by investigation (which it hasn't been, in this case).

Cilantro2000 · 15-08-2018 12:35PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well now you know. So how will you react? Do something about it or whinge about the fact that feminists didn’t do your homework for you?

Ps. I ask in jest. I know you’re going to continue to whinge about feminists not doing men’s rights work on men’s behalf. Then feign surprise that feminists focus on women’s issues. Rinse and repeat.

On what basis do you say I'm whingeing, I'm discussing, not whingeing.

The goal of feminism is gender equality, nominally at least. If this is true they should be campigning for the advancement men's rights and circumstances when they are lesser than women's.

I also find it curious why you think men should campaign on men's behalf, isn't that generalising and sexist?

optogirl · 15-08-2018 12:36PM

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

I'm referring to the dozens of feminists and other academics (including men) who signed the letter. Brian Leiter has a copy of it on his blog. The first signatory is Judith Butler, one of the most influential feminist theorists in the world today.

The letter praises Ronell’s “brilliant scholarship" and laments the damage done to her reputation. But imagine people praising Kevin Spacey's brilliant acting as a defense against sexual harassment allegations.

well if he was a brilliant actor that would be one thing....

glib remarks aside, the very same thing happened with an academic in Canada - signatories defending him included Margaret Atwood in a surprising turn of events. I think it harks back to what LLMMLL said - when it's your own friends or someone you hugely admire being accused, your objectivity is compromised.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-08-2018 12:36PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Think we’re pretty much saying the same thing. I’d also change my mind if the evidence changed. “Belief” doesn’t imply certainty. That’s “knowing”.

I think we are.

I just don’t like the idea of believing either side in a case where I’m only getting snippets of information. I tend to wait until the court reaches a verdict as they’re the ones with enough information to reach a valid conclusion.

During the Belfast rape trial I remember wondering how anyone could believe either side before the trial had finished and the jury reached a verdict.

I don’t feel I need to #believeanyone to create a safe environment for people to bring accusations forward and allow the accused to defend themselves.

Automatically believing one side or the other is what leads to big problems in these cases. Not saying that’s what you’ve done in this case.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-08-2018 12:39PM

Cilantro2000 wrote: »

On what basis do you say I'm whingeing, I'm discussing, not whingeing.

The goal of feminism is gender equality, nominally at least. If this is true they should be campigning for advance men's rights and circumstances when they are lesser than women's.

I’ll demonstrate.

Do you believe feminism is actually primarily focused on gender equality or primarily focused on advancing women’s issues?

LLMMLL · 15-08-2018 12:39PM

Having seen a copy of the letter now, it’s pretty clear that it’s her colleagues defending her, not feminists. Many of the signatories do not work from a feminist perspective at all.

Female sexual harassers and double standards

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