Female sexual harassers and double standards

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

When a man is found guilty of sexual harassment, women expect other men to join in unilateral condemnation of his actions.

The logic doesn't seem to work the other way, though, as seen in the case of Avital Ronell, a professor of German and Comparative Literature at New York University, who has been found responsible, after an internal university investigation, of systematically sexually harassing a male former PhD student, Nimrod Reitman, over a period of three years.

Reitman stated that Ronell repeatedly kissed and touched him, slept in his bed with him, asked him to lie in her bed, held his hand, constantly texted, emailed and called him, addressed him by pet names including "spaniel cock-er," and refused to work with him if he did not reciprocate. We all know what would happen if a male professor did these things to a female student.

But how did Ronell's female colleagues respond to the news? A group of them sent a letter to NYU, defending Ronell and trying to smear her accuser. The signatories include a number of top feminist professors, among them Judith Butler, author of the well-known book Gender Trouble. "“We have all seen [Ronell's] relationship with students, and some of us know the individual who has waged this malicious campaign against her,” they wrote.

There's a blatant double standard here. If women expect men to support them when they accuse powerful men of sexual harassment, they should also be willing to support male victims after a powerful woman has been found guilty. But they don't. Instead, they turn on the man and attack him, accusing him of waging a "malicious campaign."

So much for #MeToo.

New York Times story here.

PlaneSpeeking

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

When a man is found guilty of sexual harassment, women expect other men to join in unilateral condemnation of his actions.

The logic doesn't seem to work the other way, though, as seen in the case of Avital Ronell, a professor of German and Comparative Literature at New York University, who has been found responsible, after an internal university investigation, of systematically sexually harassing a male former PhD student, Nimrod Reitman, over a period of three years.

Reitman stated that Ronell repeatedly kissed and touched him, slept in his bed with him, asked him to lie in her bed, held his hand, constantly texted, emailed and called him, addressed him by pet names including "spaniel cock-er," and refused to work with him if he did not reciprocate. We all know what would happen if a male professor did these things to a female student.

But how did Ronell's female colleagues respond to the news? A group of them sent a letter to NYU, defending Ronell and trying to smear her accuser. The signatories include a number of top feminist professors, among them Judith Butler, author of the well-known book Gender Trouble. "“We have all seen [Ronell's] relationship with students, and some of us know the individual who has waged this malicious campaign against her,” they wrote.

There's a blatant double standard here. If women expect men to support them when they accuse powerful men of sexual harassment, they should also be willing to support male victims after a powerful woman has been found guilty. But they don't. Instead, they turn on the man and attack him, accusing him of waging a "malicious campaign."

So much for #MeToo.

New York Times story here.

Shared this yesterday on a different thread. I imagine the feminists are circling the wagons and blaming the bloke as we speak.

Two faced harridans that they are!

The Backwards Man

I just can't keep up with all the social and fun threads flooding this forum these days.

Cabaal

So one or two cases like this justify not supporting women when men harass women?
that doesn't seem logical.

Even if some women attacked this man then if that means you use this as a reason to not support other women when they are sexually harassed then you need to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

PlaneSpeeking

JJJJNR wrote: »

This should encourage more men to speak out about this type of abuse.

I'd like to think so but given the reaction I highly doubt it.

Never a woman's fault apparently.

I'm definitely identifying as a gay man in a female body. Being a woman isn't doing it for me, they're nuts.

Will I Am Not

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I just can't keep up with all the social and fun threads flooding this forum these days.

It must be killing you having to post in them all...

Cleopatra_

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I just can't keep up with all the social and fun threads flooding this forum these days.

There should just be one women bashing mega thread, one dole bashing one and one immigrant one. So then I can easily avoid them all.

bobbysands81

Cabaal wrote: »

So one or two cases like this justify not supporting women when men harass women?
that doesn't seem logical.

Even if some women attacked this man then if that means you use this as a reason to not support other women when they are sexually harassed then you need to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

That’s what you took out of the original post???

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Cabaal wrote: »

Even if some women attacked this man then if that means you use this as a reason to not support other women when they are sexually harassed then you need to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

Eh?

Where did I say that female victims of sexual harassment don't deserve support?

Of course they do. But male victims also deserve support. The double standards are very evident in this case, because these feminist professors would be the first to attack any male accused of harassing a woman. But when the victim is a man, they attack him.

HappyAsLarE

As a man I would love to be sexually harassed by a female co worker.

Grayson

This thread is really just an excuse for the OP to feel like he's the victim.

Is the story he discusses horrible? Yes.

Does it allow him to say that women are hypocrites? No.

Believe it or not women are not a homogenous group represented by the women in that story.
Probably doesn't matter though since the OP has taken one example and decided that "women" have double standards.
I think it says more about them rather than "women"

bobbysands81

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

As a man I would love to be sexually harassed by a female co worker.

There’s a world of a difference between sexual attention and sexual harassment.

Nimrod...haha..

SEPT 23 1989

Nimrod

The Backwards Man

Will I Am Not wrote: »

It must be killing you having to post in them all...

A post or two a week won't kill me.

It must be a sad life if you're posting incessantly about this kind of crap though.

PlaneSpeeking

Cleopatra_ wrote: »

There should just be one women bashing mega thread, one dole bashing one and one immigrant one. So then I can easily avoid them all.

This woman deserves to be "bashed".

w/s/p/c/

Nimrod... what a tremendous name

The Backwards Man

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

This woman deserves to be "bashed".

Are you not the one raising concerns about bullying a few days ago?

Lau2976

This exact thing literally happens to women who report sexual harrasment all the time? It’s not a gender specific thing.

If I said all men sexual haress women would you agree? It would be #notallmen but a few internet crazies do this and suddenly all women everywhere are being condemned.

A hell of a lot more men sexually haress women then there are women supporting this woman so my above statement would be MORE accurate. And I still wouldn’t state it. But let’s ignore facts in favour of another woman bashing thread.

B0jangles

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I'd like to think so but given the reaction I highly doubt it.

Never a woman's fault apparently.

I'm definitely identifying as a gay man in a female body. Being a woman isn't doing it for me, they're nuts.

You have got to be the try-hardiest try-hard that ever tried Too Damn Hard.

As to the original story, I'm sad but not surprised that colleagues circled the wagons to protect one of their own - people always find it easier to believe that an outsider is lying than accept that someone they know could behave like that. It's the shared experience of most people who try to report sexual harassment, especially in an institution or workplace.

khaldrogo

Cabaal wrote:

So one or two cases like this justify not supporting women when men harass women? that doesn't seem logical.

Pretty sure he didn't say anything like that at all

RWCNT

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

When a man is found guilty of sexual harassment, women expect other men to join in unilateral condemnation of his actions

Was this voted on at the women's convention?

People defend abusers all the time.

If this was about a man harassing a woman there would absolutely be comments to the tune of. "Over three years?? How come he didn't report it straight away? Obviously he used her attraction to him to his advantage, then turned around to complain for attention once it suited him, its an insult to TRUE victims of abuse". Some of them would probably be from women as well.

homerjay2005

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There’s a world of a difference between sexual attention and sexual harassment.

100% agree. unfortunately, alot of people these days have a problem differentiating between the 2.

paying somebody a "you look nice today" compliment is seen as harassment by many people now for example.

Grayson

homerjay2005 wrote: »

paying somebody a "you look nice today" compliment is seen as harassment by many people now for example.

No it's not. Unless you're talking to their tits.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Nimrod...haha..

Exactly......you go by the name Nimrod, you get what you deserve.

Case dismissed:D

Kevin Finnerty

homerjay2005 wrote: »

100% agree. unfortunately, alot of people these days have a problem differentiating between the 2.

paying somebody a "you look nice today" compliment is seen as harassment by many people now for example.

My sentiments exactly. Offence taken to a new level.

Keepaneye

Cleopatra_ wrote: »

There should just be one women bashing mega thread, one dole bashing one and one immigrant one. So then I can easily avoid them all.

Can we also have a metoo mega thread? Since all your man hating needs an outlet.

PlaneSpeeking

B0jangles wrote: »

You have got to be the try-hardiest try-hard that ever tried Too Damn Hard..

Meaning ?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

RWCNT wrote: »

People defend abusers all the time.

Maybe you don't see the irony of feminist professors who have built their careers decrying the patriarchy and the oppression of women now circling the wagons to defend a sexual harasser.

silverharp

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

As a man I would love to be sexually harassed by a female co worker.

its never like the movies though :eek:

GingerLily

Keepaneye wrote: »

Can we also have a metoo mega thread? Since all your man hating needs an outlet.

It would be discrimination not to.

RWCNT

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

RWCNT wrote: »

People defend abusers all the time.

Maybe you don't see the irony of feminist professors who have built their careers decrying the patriarchy and the oppression of women now circling the wagons to defend a sexual harasser.

Maybe they think she's innocent? I unfortunately don't see a link between "decrying the patriarchy and the oppression of women" and defending someone you believe to be innocent of sexual harassment that's substantial enough to invoke a sense of irony either.

In fairness though, I'm not actually familiar with any of these professor's work - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are, and that you're not just aping on lazy, misinformed generalisations about feminist academics.

valoren

The old deflection of why did you take so long to report it is being invoked. Clearly her enablers fail to consider the 'there and then' circumstances. Nimrod knew he was being exploited and manipulated while still a student under a professor who was harassing him. He was clearly intelligent enough to realize that if he complained 'there and then' i.e. while he was still her grad student, that she had the power and influence to wreck his career. A letter of disapproval or whatever machination's such universities use would have destroyed his prospects. An abuser will exploit that lack of power. It is only when the victim escapes that influence, which in Nimrod's case was to graduate and secure a career path that the professor's influence became redundant and then after that period of time can it be reported. So to say he waited for so long to even say anything in order to attack his credibility is a cop out and displays a stark lack of insight into what those who are abused 'there and then' experience failing to empathise with that feeling of being incapable of doing anything about the abuse.

Outlaw Pete

The amount of absolute nonsense on this thread. Users just attacking the OP and engaging in other deflective nonsense just because they don't like the thread topic.


Anyway, was reading about this case here yesterday and thought this summed it up pretty well:

Diane Davis, chair of the department of rhetoric at the University of Texas-Austin, who also signed the letter to the university supporting Professor Ronell, said she and her colleagues were particularly disturbed that, as they saw it, Mr. Reitman was using Title IX, a feminist tool, to take down a feminist.

In the minds of purported feminists, Title IX is no law protecting against sex discrimination in academia, but a “feminist tool.”

“I am of course very supportive of what Title IX and the #MeToo movement are trying to do, of their efforts to confront and to prevent abuses, for which they also seek some sort of justice,” Professor Davis wrote in an email. “But it’s for that very reason that it’s so disappointing when this incredible energy for justice is twisted and turned against itself, which is what many of us believe is happening in this case.”

For those who claim the mantle of “justice,” it’s justice for them, not for anyone else. When one of their own gets caught dirty, it’s justice “twisted and turned against itself,” for justice is what these feminists want from others, not what they do to others.

pjohnson

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Are you not the one raising concerns about bullying a few days ago?

Bullying is ok sometimes. Just dont mention overweight people.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

RWCNT wrote: »

Maybe they think she's innocent?

Yes, despite the findings of an official university investigation, they are insisting that she is innocent.

They claim in their letter that "the allegations against her do not constitute actual evidence, but rather support the view that malicious intention has animated and sustained this legal nightmare."

Consider this -- would these feminist professors be demanding "actual evidence" if a female student claimed that a male professor had grabbed her breasts and kissed her against her will? Would they be insisting that she was motivated by "malicious intention"? No -- they would be demanding that he be fired on the spot.

The former student did turn over years' worth of emails and texts from the professor, that I'm sure was taken into account as "actual evidence" to substantiate his claims -- but it's easy to ignore that when trying to smear his character.

Someone get LLMMLL..

Grayson

Grayson wrote:

Believe it or not women are not a homogenous group represented by the women in that story. Probably doesn't matter though since the OP has taken one example and decided that "women" have double standards. I think it says more about them rather than "women"

Oh the irony...

Grayson

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The amount of absolute nonsense on this thread. Users just attacking the OP and engaging in other deflective nonsense just because they don't like the thread topic.

To be fair the OP made loads of blanket statements about women and how women have double standards. It's clear that their point was that women are bad and don't care if a man is harassed/abused.

valoren

Considering the Professor was a lesbian I wonder would 'she be accorded the dignity rightly deserved by someone of her international standing and reputation' if she did the same to a female student?

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh the irony...

why? Some women will have double standards. Some won't. Some will be lovely people. Some will be horrible.

I assume you're saying it's ironic because I made a blanket statement about women saying they are not all the same.
You do realise that saying that women are not all the same is not the same as saying that women have double standards.

PlaneSpeeking

valoren wrote: »

Considering the Professor was a lesbian I wonder would 'she be accorded the dignity rightly deserved by someone of her international standing and reputation' if she did the same to a female student?

Nah they'd spin some crap about embracing her fluid sexuality.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

I assume you're saying it's ironic because I made a blanket statement about women saying they are not all the same.
You do realise that saying that women are not all the same is not the same as saying that women have double standards.

Apologies. I genuinely got you confused with another poster who was posting in a different thread not too long ago who constantly made blanket statements about men. I realise that it wasn't you.

Feisar

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

Eh?

Where did I say that female victims of sexual harassment don't deserve support?

Of course they do. But male victims also deserve support. The double standards are very evident in this case, because these feminist professors would be the first to attack any male accused of harassing a woman. But when the victim is a man, they attack him.

I don't think female harassment has the same severity attached to it.

Cilantro2000

Grayson wrote: »

No it's not. Unless you're talking to their tits.

Or talking to a man's groin which women often do.

El_Duderino 09

I would have said it shows equality of treatment for the victim and how easily people ignore things they don’t want to see.

In all cases people will try to smear the victim, make it their fault, or say they knew exactly what they were doing all along and diminish responsibility for the perpetrator. Think the Belfast rape trial for example.

The victim always gets this treatment whether a man or woman. It’s the defence’s job to muddy the waters.

I’m just glad the perpetrator was brought to justice. Fair play to the lad who brought the complaint and put up with all the scrutiny that a victim tends to be put through.

PlaneSpeeking

Feisar wrote: »

I don't think female harassment has the same severity attached to it.

And there's the double standard.

Cilantro2000

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair the OP made loads of blanket statements about women and how women have double standards. It's clear that their point was that women are bad and don't care if a man is harassed/abused.

I think you're projecting, I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that anyone thinks "women are bad".

DEFTLEFTHAND

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The amount of absolute nonsense on this thread. Users just attacking the OP and engaging in other deflective nonsense just because they don't like the thread topic.


Anyway, was reading about this case here yesterday and thought this summed it up pretty well:

Got a chill down my spine reading that.

This is getting scary. These people are insane.

Grayson

Cilantro2000 wrote: »

I think you're projecting, I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that anyone thinks "women are bad".

The OP never said "some women". They never said "those women" The OP said women. And it wasn't just once.

El_Duderino 09

Grayson wrote: »

homerjay2005 wrote: »

paying somebody a "you look nice today" compliment is seen as harassment by many people now for example.

No it's not. Unless you're talking to their tits.

Seriously. I’d love to actually see the conversation happening in real life. Some people have a weird understanding about what constitutes a compliment.

It happened in work yesterday. A colleague who I don’t really work with but we have lunch at the same time and chat. Used to have long hair half way down her back, came in with shoulder length hair.

Me: new hair Sam?
Sam: yeah got it done at the weekend, still getting used to it.
Me: yeah fair play, it suits you.
Sam: cheers.

Simple.