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Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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    #3302
    DickSwiveller Returns
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    Brian? wrote: »
    I said tweets in isolation.

    I said I'd verify the tweets by checking non Twitter output. In the case of Peterson, there is plenty to verify my opinion.

    Is there? Like what?


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    #3303
    kubjones
    Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭kubjones


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    He paints himself as a classical liberal, but he's a reactionary who panders to the right wing whilst railing against 'SJWs' and 'cultural marxism' and ODing on conspiracy theories delivered with a sneer that would make Ian O’Doherty weep with joy. I find the guy and his videos insufferable and have done since I first heard about him around the beginning of all that gamergate nonsense. That video of Tommy Robinson was an endurance test for me.

    Around the time I heard of him as well. Actually around the time I got interested in any of this.
    It wasn't nonsense though, was it? That journalists and whole media conglomerates had a motive and were spreading it through their coverage. They were in league through email chains and when discovered, doubled down and made it even more clear that they couldn't be trusted.

    Not really nonsense, I would say.
    Safe to actually say that being stung by the media that bad, people would be critical of it, no?


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    #3304
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,363 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    So you have no problem with someone being arrested, charged and sentenced all within 5 hours? That's a Judge Dredd style justice system right there. I'm not doubting the guy's guilt in this, I just think any justice system that can operate like that is open to a lot of abuse.
    If he didn't plead guilty it would have taken longer. In the UK, when you plead guilty, there is no trial and the court decides the sentence.

    The 3 month original suspended sentence was a no brainer, the only real grounds for appeal are the additional 10 months and he is entitled to appeal that sentence, which he is doing.

    If the Judge had taken a week to consider the sentence, would that have made it better? Most criminal sentences are handed out fairly quickly after a guilty plea in the UK. When there is an urgent requirement to resolve the situation, the courts can work faster. With Tommy Robinson, there was an ongoing trial that he had just put in jepordy with his facebook live broadcast, and there was a media scrum and an army of protesters demanding to know where he was and what was happening to him, which couldn't be reported because of the original court order prohibiting coverage of the trial.


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    #3305
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Brian? wrote: »
    And no evidence he doesn't. It's a nice grey space to occupy.

    There's no proof either way, certainly. Hard to deny that the quanta of evidence of this and similar right-wing dog-whistles continue to pile up.


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    #3306
    kubjones
    Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭kubjones


    Brian? wrote: »
    And no evidence he doesn't. It's a nice grey space to occupy.



    Semiconductor manufacturing. I do a very fine line in device physics and the future of quantum computing. No one seems to want to listen in the pub though.

    That sounds bloody fascinating.

    I'm a curator for a large enough academic journal.
    Definitely not as interesting, but I get to read quite a lot of good work.


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    #3307
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Akrasia wrote: »
    When you plead guilty of contempt of court and get a suspended sentence, and then a year later plead guilty to contempt of court again and get a custodial sentence, you don't really have much to complain about. Jordan Peterson loves saying that actions have consequences. If you don't want to go to jail, don't breach a court order while already serving a suspended sentence for contempt of court

    You sound very sure of yourself about this despite the facts. Namely that it was not made clear to anyone including Tommy what he did that was in contempt. He was arrested for a 'breach of the peace'. Given another fact - that the speed of the proceedings mean he couldn't mount a proper defense AND I believe his legal representation was misled (told he was being released so he was appointed one, he could have decided against having his own representation but I think that's unlikely). I just don't understand how you feel like your on solid ground. Do you also like the gag order on his case and imprisonment? Where no new information about the grooming case had been revealed?

    When I first saw the video I was like ' what was the actual breaking of the law?' and the best argument is that he was 'within the precincts of the court' but I would be interested to hear what specific action(s) you believe were unlawful. It wasn't anything he said, he didn't release any new information, he read off the bbc website which had a list of names...

    The details matter unfortunately.


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    #3308
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    He paints himself as a classical liberal, but he's a reactionary

    The two aren't mutually exclusive in this context!
    kunst nugget wrote: »
    railing against 'SJWs' and 'cultural marxism'

    As any half decent person would.
    kunst nugget wrote: »
    and ODing on conspiracy theories delivered with a sneer that would make Ian O’Doherty weep with joy.

    Funny how no evidence of this has emerged to date. A bit of a conspiracy theory itself. I don't know if you're sneering though, but I can make the assumption.
    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I find the guy and his videos insufferable

    That's reasonable enough. Personally I find that his interview style public engagement makes his message very repetitive, and his hand gestures are too frequent and samey.


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    #3309
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,363 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    JRant wrote: »
    Did he? That would be news to a lot of people if true. I'm sure you can back that claim up with a source or two.

    When accused of committing a crime you are entitled to due process or does that not apply to people you don't like?

    Even those child rapist gangs get due process.

    So did Tommy Robinson. Due process for Direct Contempt of Court allows for the judge to 'act to sentence'

    Contempt of court is a special kind of a crime, legislated under the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Court_Act_1981

    it is to preserve the proper operation of the justice system, and if the courts can be interfered with then you can end up with an infinite regress of people being charged with contempt, then causing their own trial to collapse, then having another trial for contempt which they can collapse etc etc Any interference in a jury or the courts is a serious offence and direct interference, like what Tommy Robinson did, twice, requires immediate reaction from the courts.


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    #3310
    portcrap
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭portcrap


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    He paints himself as a classical liberal, but he's a reactionary who panders to the right wing whilst railing against 'SJWs' and 'cultural marxism' and ODing on conspiracy theories delivered with a sneer that would make Ian O’Doherty weep with joy. I find the guy and his videos insufferable and have done since I first heard about him around the beginning of all that gamergate nonsense. That video of Tommy Robinson was an endurance test for me.

    Agree mostly with this but I am convinced he is representative of a new pragmatic liberalism that is emerging. Beyond the intellectual sneer he makes a number of relevant points about the absurdity of extreme forms of liberal ideology.


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    #3311
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    No.it doesn't.

    Oh, okay. My overall point still stands though.
    Akrasia wrote: »
    But if he retweets someone else saying the exact same thing he gets to say he doesn't support everything in the video

    I'd never put the motive of general sh*tstirring beyond someone's retweeting.
    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Eventually, after years of operating with impunity lest the authorities be seen as racist.

    With the habit of everything becoming politically polarized, it's nevertheless the case that some things are morally ambiguous. Tommy Robinson seems to be a bit of a thug, and was probably using the case for his own ends. Jailing him for contempt of court was entirely justified. That doesn't negate the fact that the overall problem of the gangs had come about precisely because of the difficulty of talking or addressing controversial topics due to political correctness though.

    The gag order is interesting though, and the way that there's been limited journalistic investigation into the gangs following all this is telling. What does it tell? That not disturbing the peace is deemed more important. Well that certainly seems something worth talking about.
    kubjones wrote: »
    Sargon isn't "Far-Right".

    Does that even need to be said? I know that some of the present audience would make intimations of the sort, with plausible deniability, clearly (you know, the sort of deny, deflect, defend position). I doubt though that anybody actually believes that though.
    alaimacerc wrote: »
    "Anyone who isn't alt-right-phobic"? Language being subjected to cruel and unusual treatment right there, I think. To reclaim Orwell's good name from the rightists, strong shades of "Politics and the English Language" here.

    Look the only person subjecting language to cruel and unusual treatment is yourself, as you're slinging the contents of a word salad in the general direction of Jordan Peterson and getting yourself covered in vinegar in the process.


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    #3312
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    He paints himself as a classical liberal, but he's a reactionary who panders to the right wing whilst railing against 'SJWs' and 'cultural marxism' and ODing on conspiracy theories delivered with a sneer that would make Ian O’Doherty weep with joy. I find the guy and his videos insufferable and have done since I first heard about him around the beginning of all that gamergate nonsense. That video of Tommy Robinson was an endurance test for me.

    That video was almost insufferable. Like most of his videos.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #3313
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    You sound very sure of yourself about this despite the facts. Namely that it was not made clear to anyone including Tommy what he did that was in contempt. He was arrested for a 'breach of the peace'. Given another fact - that the speed of the proceedings mean he couldn't mount a proper defense AND I believe his legal representation was misled (told he was being released so he was appointed one, he could have decided against having his own representation but I think that's unlikely). I just don't understand how you feel like your on solid ground. Do you also like the gag order on his case and imprisonment? Where no new information about the grooming case had been revealed?

    When I first saw the video I was like ' what was the actual breaking of the law?' and the best argument is that he was 'within the precincts of the court' but I would be interested to hear what specific action(s) you believe were unlawful. It wasn't anything he said, he didn't release any new information, he read off the bbc website which had a list of names...

    The details matter unfortunately.

    He pleaded guilty. When you do that you don't need time to "mount a proper defence" because there is no defence he admited he did it. The 'gag order" actually a restriction on reporting until the trial tommy could have collapsed was concluded.


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    #3314
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »
    Is there? Like what?

    Hundreds of hours of YouTube videos. Books. Live speeches.

    Is this a trick question?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #3315
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    kubjones wrote: »
    That sounds bloody fascinating.

    It really is.
    I'm a curator for a large enough academic journal.
    Definitely not as interesting, but I get to read quite a lot of good work.

    As does that. It sounds like a dream job.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #3316
    DickSwiveller Returns
    Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    Brian? wrote: »
    Hundreds of hours of YouTube videos. Books. Live speeches.

    Is this a trick question?

    Sorry, I meant in what way are your suspicions of him verified by the books, youtube videos etc. You've already stated that you don't think he is alt-right.


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    #3317
    NoviGlitzko
    Registered Users Posts: 2,580 ✭✭✭NoviGlitzko


    Just listened to this OP for the first time today. Really enjoyed it! Damn that woman wrecked my head throughout.


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    #3318
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »
    Sorry, I meant in what way are your suspicions of him verified by the books, youtube videos etc. You've already stated that you don't think he is alt-right.

    His fence sitting and general obfuscation

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #3319
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Instead of talking about videos that Peterson didn't make, and talking about things that he didn't say (but you can assume that he thought if you don't like him) here's an interesting little piece of him talking about white privilege.



    This is the reason why he's a big noise at the moment, and the reason why most people fundamentally either like or dislike him.


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    #3320
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    NoviGlitzko wrote: »
    Just listened to this OP for the first time today. Really enjoyed it! Damn that woman wrecked my head throughout.


    How dare you! Do you not know he's a right-wing libtard sent here to corrupt us all by not saying anything??? :D


    Seriously though. Ignore the majority of this thread, take what you find useful from his work and ignore what you don't agree with. If he says something that you can incorporate into your life that improves it then go for it.


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    #3321
    kubjones
    Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭kubjones


    xckjoo wrote: »
    How dare you! Do you not know he's a right-wing libtard sent here to corrupt us all by not saying anything??? :D


    Seriously though. Ignore the majority of this thread, take what you find useful from his work and ignore what you don't agree with. If he says something that you can incorporate into your life that improves it then go for it.

    xckjoo, I've never met you and I'm not sure I ever will, but if by some strange turn of fate we end up meeting one another, I hope we can be friends.


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    #3322
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    kubjones wrote: »
    xckjoo, I've never met you and I'm not sure I ever will, but if by some strange turn of fate we end up meeting one another, I hope we can be friends.


    Only if you agree with all my opinions! That's how it works right?
    :D:D


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    #3323
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Look the only person subjecting language to cruel and unusual treatment is yourself, as you're slinging the contents of a word salad in the general direction of Jordan Peterson and getting yourself covered in vinegar in the process.

    More hilariously self-serving assertions, from another member of the JP-apologist Dixie Jury. A particularly dedicated one, indeed.

    Have you even read the Orwell essay in question, pray?


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    #3324
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    Have you even read the Orwell essay in question, pray?

    I'm familiar with Orwell. I think you would make arguments easier for yourself if you styled Orwell as far-right.


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    #3325
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    kubjones wrote: »
    Around the time I heard of him as well. Actually around the time I got interested in any of this.
    It wasn't nonsense though, was it? That journalists and whole media conglomerates had a motive and were spreading it through their coverage. They were in league through email chains and when discovered, doubled down and made it even more clear that they couldn't be trusted.

    Not really nonsense, I would say.
    Safe to actually say that being stung by the media that bad, people would be critical of it, no?

    It was a total nonsense and it's why I only go on to the gaming forum here to see what's coming out soon or what games might be worth checking out - I've little interest in browsing gaming sites or youtube videos. The culture war clusterfúck that happened in the wake of gamergate had little to do with actual gaming and everything to do with taking sides in a left/right divide that had been festering between some of the gaming sites like kotaku and the trollish element of 4chan with a bunch of Youtubers sticking their oar based on their political leanings. I'm too old to be bothering with that nonsense, I'd like to just play the actual video games rather than worry if it's after being destroyed by cultural marxists because someone made an indie game with a black lesbian as the main character.


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    #3326
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    kubjones wrote: »
    His career isn't in the domain of politics though. If right wing people align with his views, it would be because he has fairly conservative views, though has labelled himself as Classical Libertarian in the past (which I guess modern left would currently identify as right-from-center).

    Not familiar with his statements on this, but the traditional terminology would be either "Classical Liberal" or "Libertarian". Both sit in the general quadrant of the political compass that's right-wing on economics, and "liberal" on social matters. As in, tending to favour less state or legal intervention in both. So neither is quite your Indo/Daily Mail "right of centre".

    The complications here are that, as you say, he's not a full-service politician, so he doesn't have a detailed policy programme. So if he makes -- as he does! -- woolly statements about desirable outcomes, he's almost necessarily going to be quite some distance away from white papers enacting (or indeed repealing) legislation on that area. Hence the constant danger of a professorial equivalent of the sort of loose pub talk that drifts from "it's a disgrace" to "there should be a law against it".

    Secondly, clearly he's fairly far from a social liberal by inclination. Much of his rhetoric seems to leave it very open to interpretation whether he's a strict small-government type, that thinks that the "back to the '50s", "our hunter-gatherer ancestors" and general "Lobsters!" stuff would/should emerge naturally, without overt state intervention. Or if he's the more usual Movement Conservative/Cafeteria Libertarian type, that believes the state should be "small" merely in the sense of doing merely the authoritarian things they like, and ideally, doing it on the cheap.

    Or indeed, somewhere on the spectrum between the two. Or "precisely" being deliberately vague, the better to run with the fox, and hunt with the hounds.


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    #3327
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I'm familiar with Orwell. I think you would make arguments easier for yourself if you styled Orwell as far-right.

    You sound a little like Bart Simpson. "I know of the times tables..."

    Why would I want to do that, having cited a very specifically piece of applicable Orwell writing, and had you breeze past it, to make your usual "because shut up, that's why!" grade intervention?


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    #3328
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,217 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    20Cent wrote: »
    Petersons 15 minutes are up.
    Now supporting Tommy Robinson.


    For someone who does not support Peterson, you sure do love posting about him. Trojan horse?


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    #3329
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,217 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    20Cent wrote: »
    Tweeting a video by one right wing nut which is supporting tommy robinson. Guess everyone will misinterpret him again. How many dog whistles does he have to blow!

    We talking about Sargon of Akkad here? Do you know he made his name taking on creationists and Christian fundamentalists and their stupid ideas about intelligent design?

    When he was finished with that, he moved onto other religions, that is the religion of modern feminism and postmodernism.


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    #3330
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    markodaly wrote: »
    For someone who does not support Peterson, you sure do love posting about him. Trojan horse?

    Trying hard to disentangle the logic here. Your "question" is whether 20cent is a right-wing false-flag operative, seeking to promote JP by merely appearing to criticise him for his defence-at-a-distance of TR, etc?

    That wouldn't even be this week's silliest conspiracy theory, is the sad thing. And it's only Tuesday lunchtime.


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    #3331
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    markodaly wrote: »
    We talking about Sargon of Akkad here? Do you know he made his name taking on creationists and Christian fundamentalists and their stupid ideas about intelligent design?

    When he was finished with that, he moved onto other religions, that is the religion of modern feminism and postmodernism.

    It's good to see what a great and thorough job he's done in "finishing" with Christian fundies, then. Feminists must be similarly terrified of their imminent extinction at his hands.


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