NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The proposed legislation to allow access to, presumably, eir's network in relation to the NBP is apparently going to be put before the Dail during the next term.

The government has approved the drafting of a bill to ensure access to infrastructure, such as ducts and poles, needed for the planned rollout of high-speed broadband to 540,000 rural homes and businesses. The legislation will also set out the costs of accessing it.

A Department of Communications spokesman said that the bill was aimed at “facilitating the efficient and effective delivery” of the plan (NBP). “It seeks to provide certainty in relation to access to critical infrastructure required to deliver the NBP and the terms and conditions including cost, of that access,” he said. “It provides that disputes in relation to access and/or terms and conditions of access will be determined by the Commission for Communications Regulation. The proposed provisions would apply only in relation to the NBP and are not limited to the infrastructure of any one provider. The bill is being drafted by the Office of the Attorney-General and it is anticipated that it will be brought to government for approval to initiate in the Oireachtas during the autumn term.”

It will be interesting to see how eir react if the new legislation undercuts the already regulated access prices.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/planned-laws-will-guarantee-broadband-network-access-n96jsvnv7?t=ie

Why the rush for the legislation, the NBP was released  just 2014, they can wait a decade or two before they rush into  those legal issues..

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Weckler's theory is even more bizarre than that. According to him enet would hire eir as a sub-contractor to build out their network. They would be paid upfront for the work but would have no long term ownership of the network. So essentially they would be cannibalising their own business (how many people in intervention areas are paying line rental and broadband subscriptiona to eir) for whatever they would be getting paid to build the infrastructure.

The whole way the process has played out is bizarre so I wouldn't rule out more of the same. I agree with you that there is no way Eir will do it just as a contractor but they are, as you have said, the obvious choice to complete the NBP.

Grab All Association wrote: »

Guy I know in a nearby village (Drom Templemore) not covered in the 300k wants to know the costs/steps of rolling out a Caseys cable type operation in a village of about 150 people.

I told him it wouldn't be viable for that small population. Fixed wireless would be cheaper and even then you'd struggle to break even but I must admit its made me curious how Caseys kept going all those years in a mid sized town like Dungarvan.

I haven't specificly looked at Caseys rollout, but a lot of the cable-tv operators, and also SIRO has done this in places, have ran their cable on the surface or premises, where possible. From house to house. No civils needed.

You can also use old sewers where available, if you can come to an agreement with the council.

Even running your own FTTH network wouldn't be that hard. The civils are the cost and problem. Once you've got them covered, it's easy. (if you have the technical know how that is).

In the case of Caseys, they've build their network over many years. Probably building it out, as funds allowed. It didn't just appear from one month to another. Dungarvan also has at least 3 wireless operators (that I know of), that offer service in and/or around Dungarvan.

/M

garroff wrote: »

Can't see it happening anywhere else.

It does. But it's the matter of having the right people in the Council and then talking to them. For sure.

/M

Nah ..

from what I've seen most urban dwellers have been fine with giving permission, when we're talking like a row of houses that are all attached.

It can go the other way though. Like: somebody buys a house, doesn't like the cabling and basically tells ISP (Virgin, SIRO, etc.) to remove said cabling. It's then down to the provider to find alternative ways.

Virgin lost access to a chunk of customers in an estate in Dublin recently (that i know of) for the exact same reasons. What happens in a case like this is that they either have to tell the customers, that they can't have service anymore or they have to fork out for the license and civils to remove the cabling from said house and move it onto and under the street.

So depending on how big the chunk is, that's what's going to happen. This chunk was small enough, that they figured it wasn't worth their while and simply told customers to find a new provider.

It is something that an ISP calculates in when building the network like that. If they can grow the network big enough to sustain having to rebuild parts of it later on (so ... skimping on civils first, then doing it right later when they have funds or the license granted .. depending on what's holding them up), then it makes perfectly sense. Sure .. lots of the ESB and old Eircom copper is surface mounted, too .. just that the feed is in the road. But the copper DP would on the front wall of the house .. often a ladder needed to reach it.

/M

ED E wrote: »

Take a look at where Grab All Association is talking about Marlow. The ESB experience with farmers is far more relevant than the likes of VM.

The ESB experience with farmers is why B4RN is not happening over here. I actually tried that approach. 1 out of 10 might agree .. MAYBE.

I've seen even wireless ventures having to remove their gear of watertowers, because the farmer in question had done the contracts with the waterscheme or council in a way, where the access to the grounds only could be used for specific purposes.

For everything else, they wanted more money.

The watertowers in Clarinbridge and Belclare, Co. Galway are prime examples of that. The Clarinbridge one going back to IBB times. The one in Belclare I think it was a mobile provider, that got booted off the tower, because the farmer wouldn't allow them access to drive to the tower or cross his land.

There's also no fiber at the Ballinfoyle mast on the Headford Road in Galway because the farmer is looking for more money. Both eircom and eNet were trying to get up there with fiber and got shut down. I believe the mast at Tonabrocky, Galway is suffering the same issues, but I've had no direct dealings with that site.

People are obsessed with way leaves, and how they can profit of these or how they limit them, in this country. B4RN was only possible, because the farmers up there in Scotland saw, what they could do for the community and pulled all stops out.

Also pricing for licenses to run ducting, infrastructure, access to these, varies from Council to Council. Also the time frame in which these councils respond. That makes it extremely variable on how to run any cabled network out in Ireland. And very cumbersome to calculate an infrastructure cost price.

/M

The issue at hand isn't even the roll out to the homes. The issue is infrastructure into these intervention areas.

The reform has to come from within the department and councils. And it would actually also cut down on the tax money spend.

Here is, how it goes in other countries:
- ISP or telco registers with regulator and states, what areas of the country they cover with that products (this process is in place. Everyone registers with Comreg and that data is publicly available)
- Government department plans an infrastructure project, schedule and budget is set based on tenders.
- Government department now obtains data from regulator, which other service providers could be interested in using said build to get their infrastructure in place or rebuild, while this is ongoing (not happening in Ireland)
- Service Providers respond and get their plans in before a dead line (not happening in Ireland, because they're not notified) They contribute at a fixed price per km to the civils, that otherwise would have been financed by tax money only.

That way, every time road works, a water scheme, sewage scheme, gas pipeline, electrical underground works etc. is happening, the cost of doing this is shared across multiple parties and the overall cost to the tax payer goes down.

And then there's the lack of regulation of government owned fiber and it's pricing, that tax payers paid for. That isn't in place either. There's regulation for dark fiber by Eircom/Eir/OpenEIR .. but they're not forced to make it available.

Also, in for example Denmark, if you want to run fiber along country roads, you apply via a website, define the stretch you want to run your fiber, what way you want to run it (ducted, slit laying etc.) etc. 2 weeks later you get a response with yay (including a map of other cabling you need to be aware of) or nay and if nay there has to be a valid reason, a date when you can do this instead and a clearly documentation on the refusal or delay from the Council/Government.

Here, there's not even a central process for doing this. Every council brews their own pot of tay.

/M

user1842 wrote: »

What!!!!!!!

Enet to go it alone in post-SSE rural NBP broadband rollout

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/enet-to-go-it-alone-in-postsse-rural-nbp-broadband-rollout-37191118.html

Supports my view that the state is using its majority-owned company to do a "self-build".

roddy15 wrote: »

To be honest, I couldn't give two ****s who does it, who owns them etc., just get us a proper fibre network that we can have proper control over for the foreseeable future to make sure we kill the whole "urban rural" divide for broadband.

Eir should have been the obvious choice but they backed out and at this stage, it needs to be done by any means necessary.



That is what we have to put up with, I couldn't care less if it's a semi-state in disguise so long as we can get the fibre to everyone, the Eirs of the world had their chance.

My thoughts exactly, I do not care anymore - just do it and get it done now!

KOR101 wrote: »

We're all frustrated but what is being pointed out is that it's possibly illegal.

It's not illegal ... well, the part of rolling out the fiber isn't.

But the combination of that consortium with the funds, that they're trying to get allocated to themselves is highly questionable.

And that's a big culprit, which might delay things a lot more than anything else.

The whole tender has turned into a farce and a scam.

/M

Everyone (except Eir, of course) wants it to happen as soon as possible, by any means necessary.

The only two issues are

- "it" has never been done anywhere successfully

- the dodgy nature of it could be what sinks it legally, by Eir, the EU, Imagine, SIRO, or whoever

For instance, if the conditions change materially, in Enet's favour, post SIRO pull out, having spent millions on it, wouldn't SIRO be entitled to redress?

If the State aid is indeed illegal, the EU will kick up.

So the State needs to do this in a proper way, to get it off the ground. Let's hope they can.

The Government is showing a lot of determination here, but I keep waiting for the 'other foot to drop' namely how does Eir react to this. Short of a big payoff, they surely have the means to cause all sorts of trouble.