Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018/2019 [Mod note 31-Aug-18]

Drumpot · 09-08-2018 01:05PM

TheDoc wrote: »

There is a well trodden history of

a) Clubs spending vicariously leading them into trouble.
b) Clubs spending there way back to former glories, that implodes on itself.

I probably also care because I personally believe the club needs to shift its foundations and structure. If someone doesn't believe that, then yeah they will just expect manager to want X and club to pay Y to get them.

I'm not desperate for the club to haggle. And it's not strictly about the money. It's about the general squad harmony and building process.

We did exactly what you mentioned in January bringing in Sanchez on massive money. It's clearly caused a ripple in terms of other players and their own salaries.
It completely ****ed Martial who was in fine form, to the point he wants to leave.
It put Rashfords involvement, which was working nicely with Martial, down to cameo appearances where he was generally poor for the second half of the season.
And it caused utter confusion and chaos tactically in the team. We signed someone the manager wanted with zero plan for him,

Now look that all might be fine this season, and Sanchez might work out and great. But prudent ownership would look at that and ask some questions.

Prudent owners ask questions of their managers. Sorry but your not in the real world if you, or any manager thinks, in 2018, they rock into a club and the owners are just an ATM machine.

I don't disagree with your sentiments. Hell I am always saying to friends I would prefer an identifiable long term strategy, a football style ethos and a commitment to this strategy.

So why was Jose hired if it wasn't to try and bring in instant success ? At what club in the past has he joined and been a part of a long term plan with entertaining football at its core ? Even the dog on the street could say that Jose would want older/experienced players to strengthen his core, not U19 potential players.

You see these aren't the kind of prudent owners you are talking about, there is a completely contradictory transfer/manager policy that doesn't in anyway suggest they have a long term on field plan.

If I was trying to summarise the reasons managers were hired it would be because:

Moyes - Long term building - cheap option
LVG - Youth build squad
Jose - Short term success

You said it yourself, Sanchez was a "throw money at the target" signing. So what was that about if the club is being so responsible in its transfer dealings? There is a lot of contradictory evidence available that could say one thing or another, depending on your viewpoint. But this in itself suggests the club has a disjointed transfer policy.

TheDoc · 09-08-2018 01:06PM

Mokuba wrote: »

Prudent owners?

More like parasites who have robbed the club blind and are throwing out a few band aids to keep us in Top 4.

Are you for real? Embarrassing stuff defending them. We could spend like PSG and still be financially comfortable. Buying a few players isn't going to bankrupt the club FFS. Our revenue is only growing!

And completely ironic that you talk about the board being prudent and being careful not to destabilise the squad when they have purchased players for years based on name with little input from the manager.

Should clarify I separate the Glazers.

My understanding in terms of the clubs current operation is the Glazers make little to no input in terms of blocking or embargoing transfers or spend. It's fully in the operation of Woodward and his department.

I don't defend the Glazers, I do however acknowledge they took a serious financial risk, that would appear paid off in the end, allowing us to be now the wealthiest club in the world with incredible disposable income to utilise.

And I'm just saying that because there is tons of cash there, doesnt instantly mean you become frivolous with that spending. Anyone with half a passing interest in the financial side of football knows its on the height of the gravy train, that is going to start retracting in the coming years

*And as I type I see the post about Woodward and Uniteds right. The obvious next step thats been coming for years, that ends the Tv right gravy train. But actually would put us potentially further ahead in terms of competitive advantage down the line. But all that resides on us still being a succesfull, silverware winning club

nullzero · 09-08-2018 01:06PM

astradave wrote: »

https://twitter.com/munitedfrance/status/1027500213601284098?s=21

Who's going to pay for that when you're watching a team full of second and third tier players struggle against bottom half of the table sides?

Rayne Wooney · 09-08-2018 01:07PM

How do we quantify where we finished last year and the “potential not extracted” from the players?

There was 19 points between us and City, I would say they are at least 10 points ahead on player quality alone, so if we are looking at 9 points potential gain, I do not know how anybody could put the blame on Mourinho for not getting those 9 points, if anything the players making a complete balls of chances accounted for the majority. West Brom at home, 68% possession, 10 shots on goal, Lukaku, Mata, Pogba, Sanchez, Herrera all out on the pitch, 3 points dropped.

I am really bemused with the line lately that Jose didn’t get enough out of the players and we could have finished slightly closer to City.

TheDoc · 09-08-2018 01:07PM

Lord TSC wrote: »

I think more than anyone else, you probably mirror my exact feelings on everything right now.

But I have to try to stay positive.

Too much **** elsewhere in my life. I want to believe football will be an escape.

I bloody hated the last 7 months or so of the Van Gaal and Moyes eras. I really don't want to have another season where I'm getting angry watching something that I want to love. I just don't know if I have the energy.....

We'll be ecstatic and delirious together when we have good wins and see class goals, and we can verbally box the head of each other when we lose and I blame the manager and you blame the players

Point being we'll go through it together and we'll have some good craic along the way

(>^^)><(^^<)

TheDoc · 09-08-2018 01:09PM

adox wrote: »

I would say that Sanchez and Lindelof have shown real signs pre season that they will be much better players this season so that is positive going in.

That's where I'm clinging to at the moment.

That we've got lost in the transfer stuff and forgot we have good players and players who have a much higher ceiling to reach.

And if players kick on and the team kicks on, who knows where it can end up.

I know the counter arguement to that, it's my own counter arguement

But it's where my positive vibes are

How Soon Is Now · 09-08-2018 01:09PM

astradave wrote: »

https://twitter.com/munitedfrance/status/1027500213601284098?s=21

That's what this guy is good at he's proved it enough times but he's obviously lacking in areas when comes to football and it's a football club!!

Woodward should be left to the financial side of things and have a football expert to deal with that side of things.

DM_7 · 09-08-2018 01:09PM

Drumpot wrote: »

I don't sympathise with everybody involved at all. The owners have taken over 1.2billion out of the club since they saddled it with crippling debt. Maybe if they hadn't done that the club wouldn't be struggling to get in targets to meet fans/managers expectations.

Seriously, I cant understand why any united fan cares if the club spends 20mi or 50mil on a player the team needs. Why are fans of the most valuable club in the world so focused on "value" for players ? Liverpool have broken records to buy in the targets their manager wanted, so why should we be desperate for the club to haggle over players ?

And it wont be the owners/woodward who get the sack if the team doesn't meet fans expectations.

We should care on the basis that gross wastage will put the club in a bad position financially.

Regardless of what they took out, they also put in place systems to generate money. While most English premier league clubs are riding the wave of tv money United are acting in a responsible way to try and maintain a business beyond the potential tv money bubble.

You can call for more for better but the club should always retain a position of what is best long term, not over chase short term success.

Look at 16/17 financials.

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1025283899465846784?s=19

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1025284025949282304?s=19

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1025284033457152001?s=19

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1025284018391183361?s=19

While United are still highest in debt for that period, where would you prefer to see United on the below table if TV money falls back? For all the money out talk they leave a large amount within the business.

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1025284892488331264?s=19

TheDoc · 09-08-2018 01:10PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

You think that the general narrative in here is that United have bridged the gap to City? I disagree completely, general narrative is that we absolutely have not.

That's what I meant, it's referencing back the post he/she quoted.

The general narrative this summer among pundits, fans, journalists, opinion columns and portions of the fans is we have in no way shape or form bridged a gap to City.

Some mention we have even slipped back.

Cantona's Collars · 09-08-2018 01:11PM

https://twitter.com/samuelluckhurst/status/1027523781777141762

Ah,the old Ronaldo trick. Use United to get a better contract.

https://twitter.com/MaddockMirror/status/1027523911758557184

A bit of positivity from Maddock,but the clock is ticking.......

TheDoc · 09-08-2018 01:12PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

How do we quantify where we finished last year and the “potential not extracted” from the players?

There was 19 points between us and City, I would say they are at least 10 points ahead on player quality alone, so if we are looking at 9 points potential gain, I do not know how anybody could put the blame on Mourinho for not getting those 9 points, if anything the players making a complete balls of chances accounted for the majority. West Brom at home, 68% possession, 10 shots on goal, Lukaku, Mata, Pogba, Sanchez, Herrera all out on the pitch, 3 points dropped.

I am really bemused with the line lately that Jose didn’t get enough out of the players and we could have finished slightly closer to City.

Yeah look that can work lovely when it's abstract examples.

We could use the Sevilla example if you like to argue the toss on that one?

There is culpability on both sides. Players not performing, but also the manager not extracting the maximum. It's not 100% one or the other.

But depending on your POV, you likely weigh one heavier than the other

Drumpot · 09-08-2018 01:13PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

How do we quantify where we finished last year and the “potential not extracted” from the players?

There was 19 points between us and City, I would say they are at least 10 points ahead on player quality alone, so if we are looking at 9 points potential gain, I do not know how anybody could put the blame on Mourinho for not getting those 9 points, if anything the players making a complete balls of chances accounted for the majority. West Brom at home, 68% possession, 10 shots on goal, Lukaku, Mata, Pogba, Sanchez, Herrera all out on the pitch, 3 points dropped.

I am really bemused with the line lately that Jose didn’t get enough out of the players and we could have finished slightly closer to City.

What have the last 7 league winners all got in common ? None of them retained the titled or matched the heights they did the season before.

Did the managers of these teams all of a sudden become useless or inept ? Or did perhaps the mentality of these teams /players slightly change ?

I think people forget that players actually have a responsibility to do their f**king job as best they can irrespective of their relationship with a manager. A managers job is to manage and get the most out of them but a player doesn't have to like a manager to work well with him. Its a lazy misconception that if a player is unruly or causing trouble that the problem must be the manager.

Trigger · 09-08-2018 01:19PM

Alderweirald could easily be pushed thru at the United offices in London if needs be..

threein99 · 09-08-2018 01:20PM

Mokuba wrote: »

Prudent owners?

More like parasites who have robbed the club blind and are throwing out a few band aids to keep us in Top 4.

Are you for real? Embarrassing stuff defending them. We could spend like PSG and still be financially comfortable. Buying a few players isn't going to bankrupt the club FFS. Our revenue is only growing!

And completely ironic that you talk about the board being prudent and being careful not to destabilise the squad when they have purchased players for years based on name with little input from the manager.

Couldn't agree more, people have forgotten what absolute parasites they are and have been for 13 years. Any success we have had since they took over has been in spite of them not because of them.

They have turned us into a soulless commercial laughing stock. Sir Alex and Gill leaving opened the door for them to appoint stooges like Woodward.

Drumpot · 09-08-2018 01:24PM

DM_7 wrote: »

We should care on the basis that gross wastage will put the club in a bad position financially.

Regardless of what they took out, they also put in place systems to generate money. While most English premier league clubs are riding the wave of tv money United are acting in a responsible way to try and maintain a business beyond the potential tv money bubble.

You can call for more for better but the club should always retain a position of what is best long term, not over chase short term success.

Look at 16/17 financials.

While United are still highest in debt for that period, where would you prefer to see United on the below table if TV money falls back? For all the money out talk they leave a large amount within the business.

I took out links to reduce response. .

I suppose there are a couple of things. the money the owners have taken out the club amounts to more then the cost of the city squad. That's pretty significant and while you can say "it is what it is", its money that wasn't invested in improving the clubs on field chances.

Secondly, I honestly don't know what consititutes "prudent club finances" in terms of what the club should or should not invest in the first team. Your figures are abstract because I have no benchmark to discuss them with. Its like saying "united spends hundreds of millions" which sounds a lot but means nothing unless we have multiple variables to quantify what this statement actually means.

Thirdly, I don't advocate that the club gets wreckless. I am saying I don't trust the owners (as per point 1) and have no reason to trust that they are pushing the boat out for success. Like you say it depends on your viewpoint but there is literally nothing to suggest that the owners care about anything more then doing enough to keep the club in the hunt. Not because it cant spend more but because it financially doesn't make sense.

City, PSG, Chelsea and their ilk have distorted the transfer prices, no doubt. But United spent more, particularly back in early 00s, proportionately to what it spends now. A big difference is that we now have owners who are sapping massive funds out of the club.

Like I say, I don't completely disagree with you. Considering neither of us know for sure, I cant see why the club owners should get the benefit of the doubt on this "prudent" spending theory of yours.

MD1990 · 09-08-2018 01:32PM

Man Utd signed Sanchez & Fred ahead of Man City on both occasions in the last 6 months.

Mourinho actually has a very good squad if he can utilise it properly. Hopefully he doesn't.

Lord TSC · 09-08-2018 01:34PM

MD1990 wrote: »

Man Utd signed Sanchez & Fred ahead of Man City on both occasions in the last 6 months.

Mourinho actually has a very good squad if he can utilise it properly. Hopefully he doesn't.

No one should dispute we don't have a very good squad.

The issue is we have the money to make it better, AND we have two or three large gaps in the first team that could be improved upon.

Just because the squad is "very good" doesn't mean we should settle. Did Pool settle because their team was "very good", and managed to make the CL final? Or did they go "We can do better" and back the manager?

votecounts · 09-08-2018 01:36PM

Thought we'd sign one or two players.
Resigned to signing none. Shambles of a window

yermandan · 09-08-2018 01:39PM

Coat22 wrote: »

What has happened since last season to make you think this? The addition of Fred and hopefully Sanchez turning up will hopefully give us something but we have the same ponderous back 4, 2 33 year old full backs who are wingers and a bunch of centre halves who are either "potential", injured or just not up to it.

Much like Kew, I base absolutely none of my optimism on peer reviewed facts, only a desire to not lose my mind by dwelling in the negativity surrounding the team. I take your point of course, but think the two players you mentioned, plus Pereira, are gonna have a storming season, along with Pogba, Matic, Bailly, De Gea, Lingered and Lukaku.

The rest can go and shyte

Rayne Wooney · 09-08-2018 01:43PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Yeah look that can work lovely when it's abstract examples.

We could use the Sevilla example if you like to argue the toss on that one?

There is culpability on both sides. Players not performing, but also the manager not extracting the maximum. It's not 100% one or the other.

But depending on your POV, you likely weigh one heavier than the other

Do you see how utterly pointless it is debating a couple of extra points with blame, by your own admission, split between players and manager.

The fact is City are a better team but more importantly the players individually have more talent and consistency than ours, we will not surpass them with the players we have, so statements like “Jose should be getting more out of X” are worthless statements.

Cypher_sounds · 09-08-2018 01:44PM

Liam McPoyle · 09-08-2018 01:56PM

Choo Choo madafackas!

Cotts72 · 09-08-2018 02:01PM

I think there couod be a last min dash for Alderweireld like the berba transfer ... Fingers crosswd

Lord TSC · 09-08-2018 02:15PM

Duncan Castles on why Diego Godin rejected Manchester United: Manchester United’s deadline-day bid to solve the club’s defensive problems by signing Diego Godin fell apart last night when Atletico Madrid offered the Uruguay central defender an improved contract.

Loafing Oaf · 09-08-2018 02:22PM

Breaking news, Manchester United have made Reading a £100 million offer for Paul McShane. Reading are holding out for £120 million...

How Soon Is Now · 09-08-2018 02:28PM

Switched on sky there while ago see any news jesus whole thing has got even more cringy then ever before!

ShaneU · 09-08-2018 02:28PM

The twitter account just tweeted three times in 15 minutes about the new mobile app...unfollowed!

That will surely register my disapproval with the running of the club!

WinnyThePoo · 09-08-2018 02:31PM

Lord TSC wrote: »

Duncan Castles on why Diego Godin rejected Manchester United: Manchester United’s deadline-day bid to solve the club’s defensive problems by signing Diego Godin fell apart last night when Atletico Madrid offered the Uruguay central defender an improved contract.

What defensive problems?

Coat22 · 09-08-2018 02:31PM

"It sounds like Manchester United have been played like a fiddle by Diego Godin and his agent. The timeline of this curious story, according to Sky, started with United being approached by Godin’s agent last week expressing the player’s desire to play at Old Trafford, United immediately making contact with Atletico with a generous offer, Atletico responding to the possibility of losing the Uruguayan by offering him a massive bumper new contract, and Godin chuckling heartily to himself as he put pen to paper."
Oh dear Ed.....not again.....surely not again.....

Coat22 · 09-08-2018 02:35PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Lord TSC wrote: »

Duncan Castles on why Diego Godin rejected Manchester United: Manchester United’s deadline-day bid to solve the club’s defensive problems by signing Diego Godin fell apart last night when Atletico Madrid offered the Uruguay central defender an improved contract.

What defensive problems?

The one's which cause our 'keeper to be our player of the season every year.
I don't buy the "we have the best goals conceded record" line either - the reason for this is our style of play rather than any great achievement by the journeymen. If we had a quality back 4 all in front of them could play more expansive football rather than worrying about Rashford and Lukaku spending most of their time tracking back.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018/2019 [Mod note 31-Aug-18]

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