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Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

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    #212
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    This. An awful lot of Brexiteers seem to regard a referendum as a kind of off-switch for democracy.

    This probably has to do with the fact that the referendum is a relative constitutional novelty in the UK, and they haven't quite worked out what the role or effect of a referendum is. In other democracies, where the referendum has an established place, they generally get that the referendum is just one more tool in the democratic toolbox. You use it when it's the right or necessary tool for the job. But it's a tool, not a magic wand. Your wish that the result of a referendum will stand for a generation without question will not necessarily be made real.
    You are conveniently forgetting the following General Election where parties that said they would Respect the Brexit Referendum Result got 84% of the Vote .


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    #213
    Thomas_IV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 359 ✭✭Thomas_IV


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Thomas_IV wrote: »
    Democracy is very much more than just voting in referendums, but apparently not for the Brexiteers. For them Democracy ends with the referendum result that fits them.
    This.  An awful lot of Brexiteers seem to regard a referendum as a kind of off-switch for democracy.

    This probably has to do with the fact that the referendum is a relative constitutional novelty in the UK, and they haven't quite worked out what the role or effect of a referendum is.  In other democracies, where the referendum has an established place, they generally get that the referendum is just one more tool in the democratic toolbox.  You use it when it's the right or necessary tool for the job.  But it's a tool, not a magic wand.  Your wish that the result of a referendum will stand for a generation without question will not necessarily be made real.

    That all is quite so as you said. But it takes some understanding and intellect to realise that and the many Brexiteers fail to realise that. Not necessarily for bing stupid, but more for being ideological blinded and stubborn in their fierceness to achieve their aim no matter what and no matter what it will cost. That is the real radical thinking in the minds of the many Brexiteers. It is no wonder that this is the way they think and talk, having been manipulated by the tabloids (and some even allegedely blame the BBC too for that) and their constant anti-EU stance and views in every article for years, if not to say for decades (which is much more closer to the truth).

    The will learn it the hard way how utterly wrong they are. Some who are not that ideological stupid might know that already, but don't have the courage to themselves to admit it and reverse their stance. This is like on many boards on the Internet, like some f*cking silly game of point scoring with pick your team and creed and stick to it no matter what comes along. That is really disgusting because it shows hos stupid people can be. If it would only affect themselves I wouldn't mind that much, but this Brexit folly is to ruin the lives of millions of people, those who voted remain included and this is where it starts that I really despise the Brexiteers, for imposing their stupidity on others against their expressed will. Every suggestion or even attempt to reverse Brexit by giving it a second referendum is shouted down by the Brexiteers as 'anti-democratic' because they fear that some who first voted for Leave might have a change of mind and would vote Remain in a BrexitRef2 which would leave the Brexit idiocy in tatters.


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    #214
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,820 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    blinding wrote: »
    You are conveniently forgetting the following General Election where parties that said they would Respect the Brexit Referendum Result got 84% of the Vote .

    Parties can't have 84 % vote for brexit if their own Base and many of their MPs are against it.

    Your use of the figure 84% is you making things up

    I'd go as far as saying you doing it for the laugh in hopes of being challenged.

    Probably just to post your inane democracy is a beautiful thing chant.


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    #215
    Thomas_IV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 359 ✭✭Thomas_IV


    listermint wrote: »
    blinding wrote: »
    You are conveniently forgetting the following General Election where parties that said they would Respect the Brexit Referendum Result got 84% of the Vote .

    Parties can't have 84 % vote for brexit if their own Base and many of their MPs are against it.

    Your use of the figure 84% is you making things up

    I'd go as far as saying you doing it for the laugh in hopes of being challenged.

    Probably just to post your inane democracy is a beautiful thing chant.

    I decided to cease following blinding's posts as they are apparently pointless reiterations like coming from a bot.


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    #216
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    listermint wrote: »
    Parties can't have 84 % vote for brexit if their own Base and many of their MPs are against it.

    Your use of the figure 84% is you making things up

    I'd go as far as saying you doing it for the laugh in hopes of being challenged.

    Probably just to post your inane democracy is a beautiful thing chant.

    Did you see and understand the Labour and Conservative General Election Manifestos . Did you understand the Respect the result of the Brexit Referendum . They could not have been clearer . =84%

    There was a party that rejected the referendum result = 8%

    I love Democracy .


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    #217
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    blinding wrote: »
    You are conveniently forgetting the following General Election where parties that said they would Respect the Brexit Referendum Result got 84% of the Vote .
    No, I'm not. As the parties had - and still have - different notions of what "respect the vote" means, neither of them can say that their vision has secured a mandate. May's Brexit programme attracted a vote of 42% of the population; clearly it has no mandate.

    And, even if May had secured a 50% plus vote in 2017, that still wouldn't prevent people changing their minds in 2019 and expressing that, either in a referendum or in a general election. The voice of the people can never be silenced! Those who take the view that the people should not be given the chance to express a change of mind through democratic means such as another referendum are, quite obviously, the enemies of democracy, who deserve to be crushed without mercy in a Violent Uprising. I am completely confident that you entirely agree with this, and that you will be one of the first to the barricades.


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    #218
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭OldRio


    blinding wrote: »
    Did you see and understand the Labour and Conservative General Election Manifestos . Did you understand the Respect the result of the Brexit Referendum . They could not have been clearer . =84%

    There was a party that rejected the referendum result = 8%

    I love Democracy .

    Reading some of your posts on this and other threads. I see what you're at. Ignore button used.


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    #219
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    OldRio wrote: »
    Reading some of your posts on this and other threads. I see what you're at. Ignore button used.
    Democracy is just not your thing !


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    #220
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,496 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blinding wrote: »
    Democracy is just not your thing !

    Never seen such bill headedness.

    There is a growing mandate to have a vote on exactly what is on offer here. Like the mandate that grew to have the original ref, if that is ignored then your much vaunted 'Democracy' is a joke.
    That's 'joke' with a capital j.


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    #221
    Thomas_IV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 359 ✭✭Thomas_IV


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    blinding wrote: »
    Democracy is just not your thing !

    Never seen such bill headedness.

    There is a growing mandate to have a vote on exactly what is on offer here. Like the mandate that grew to have the original ref,  if that is ignored then your much vaunted 'Democracy' is a joke.
    That's 'joke' with a capital j.

    He's just an example of the many Brexiteers and their crude sense of the meaning of democracy. They're all beyond a 'Joke', they really mean it.


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    #222
    TomSweeney
    Registered Users Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭TomSweeney


    What about ye ?


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    #223
    Thomas_IV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 359 ✭✭Thomas_IV


    TomSweeney wrote: »
    What about ye ?

    Me? I am no Brexiter.


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    #224
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    If anyone was a Nazi sympathizer it was good ole' Dev.
    Anyone who was an enemy of the hated Brits was good enough for him.

    Indeed. And your evidence for this nonsense is what, precisely? Is it the 6 IRA men he executed, or the other 6 whom he allowed to die on hunger strike between 1939 and 1945? Or the 1,500 suspected IRA volunteers he had interned during the same period? Please do tell.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Ireland... refused to take Jewish refugees and need I mention Dev sending his warmest and most heartfelt condolences following Hitler's death?

    Very interesting. Would this be the same de Valera who invited Erwin Schrödinger to work in Ireland when he was expelled from Germany for his anti-Nazi views? The same de Valera who overruled his own Department of Justice when they refused to allow 150 Jewish children into Ireland? The same de Valera who explicitly granted protections to Jews when he wrote Bunreacht na hÉireann in 1937, when it was fashionable elsewhere to deny rights to them and indeed to collaborate with the Nazis as Britain was still doing in that year? The same de Valera who was honoured by the Jewish community that created the Éamon de Valera Forest in Israel in 1966?

    And so on ad nauseam. There's even a book dedicated to all these supposedly non-existent refugees in Ireland from Nazi Germany:

    Gisela Holfter and Horst Dickel, An Irish Sanctuary: German-Speaking Refugees in Ireland 1933-1945(Oldenburg, 2016)

    And just in case you've missed it - and clearly you have - at the Èvian Conference in July 1938 Britain, the US and every other country bar the Dominican Republic refused to take Jewish refugees so in this context the fixation with singling de Valera out for demonisation is nothing but prejudice or ignorance, or both.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    The Brits where fighting the Nazis while Ireland hid behind neutrality.

    After 6 years of collaborating with - apologies, "appeasing" - the Nazis while they implemented the Nuremburg Laws, of undermining the French & Stresa Front in order to advance British businesses (e.g. signing the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, 1935), and of looking at Nazism as being a welcome bulwark against communism, it was the least they could do. Ironically, it was the dreaded Russian communists who did most to win WWII but who were not even invited to the Munich Agreement by Britain which was more keen on appeasing their then lesser evil, Hitler.


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    #225
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    blinding wrote: »
    You are conveniently forgetting the following General Election where parties that said they would Respect the Brexit Referendum Result got 84% of the Vote .

    You're conveniently forgetting that the 2016 vote was the 2nd referendum on EU membership. What's wrong with having a 3rd if it all goes t*ts up? (Which it is).


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    #226
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Anyone else have the impression that the reason Wesminster is making a hames of their Brexit management is they just arent including DeValera and Hitler enough in their thoughts and discussions ?


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    #227
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,351 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Taytoland wrote: »
    I am asking for facts to back up that Scotland could keep the pound and join the EU. It simply can't. Any new state which joins the EU and all of it's forms must sign up to the Euro currency. For Scotland to leave the Union and then having to rejoin the EU they would be absolutely expected to sign up to the Euro currency.

    Ireland left the UK but continued to use sterling for 56 years - as I pointed out in the post you replied to - did you read it...? and of course we joined the EEC during that time


    Most of the 2004+ EU entrants haven't joined the euro yet although they have a theoretical obligation. Both the country concerned and the EU have to agree that the economic conditions have been met. In practice this can be put on the long finger indefinitely, for instance Sweden has basically no intention of joining the euro.

    Denmark has effectively joined the euro (the kroner is pegged to the euro) but refuses to adopt the notes and coins out of domestic political BS. That's another option.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #228
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Anyone else have the impression that the reason Wesminster is making a hames of their Brexit management is they just arent including DeValera and Hitler enough in their thoughts and discussions ?
    It'd be worth trying. It could hardly produce a worse outcome than what they're doing now. :)


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    #229
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You're conveniently forgetting that the 2016 vote was the 2nd referendum on EU membership. What's wrong with having a 3rd if it all goes t*ts up? (Which it is).
    Roughly 36 years between or whatever it was is about right .


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    #230
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,496 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blinding wrote: »
    Roughly 36 years between or whatever it was is about right .

    So 36 years is the qualifying period of time for 'Democracy'.

    If the desire is there for a plebiscite on any issue why would you wait 36 yrs? What makes that period more 'Democratic'?


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    #231
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So 36 years is the qualifying period of time for 'Democracy'.

    If the desire is there for a plebiscite on any issue why would you wait 36 yrs? What makes that period more 'Democratic'?
    Most of the Brits just want to get on with it . Many are very perplexed that the Result has not been followed through particularly after the General Election where parties that said they would respect the referendum result got 84% .


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    #232
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,496 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blinding wrote: »
    Most of the Brits just want to get on with it . Many are very perplexed that the Result has not been followed through particularly after the General Election where parties that said they would respect the referendum result got 84% .

    You are just making stuff up now.
    You would have that impression if you read certain newspapers, but you can just as easily get the impression that many would change their minds if there was another plebiscite.
    Proper polling is the only way to get a true sense. Parliament is in a mess on the issue precisely because it reflects the country.

    Clarification of what the people want would be the true democratic way forward imo.


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    #233
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You are just making stuff up now.
    You would have that impression if you read certain newspapers, but you can just as easily get the impression that many would change their minds if there was another plebiscite.
    Proper polling is the only way to get a true sense. Parliament is in a mess on the issue precisely because it reflects the country.

    Clarification of what the people want would be the true democratic way forward imo.
    Pollling is very unreliable . Remarkable how many times it comes up with a result that favours the people paying for it .

    Didn’t the Pro Eu Liberal democrats get 8% at the last election ; Thats 8% :D

    Vince Cable Missed some important votes and nobody even noticed for a day or two because so few people care . Vince goes missing and nobody even notices .


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    #234
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,496 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blinding wrote: »
    Pollling is very unreliable . Remarkable how many times it comes up with a result that favours the people paying for it .

    Didn’t the Pro Eu Liberal democrats get 8% at the last election ; Thats 8% :D

    Vince Cable Missed some important votes and nobody even noticed for a day or two because so few people care . Vince goes missing and nobody even notices .

    But your 'impression' of the mood of the people that is plucked outta the ether is more reliable? :rolleyes:


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    #235
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    But your 'impression' of the mood of the people that is plucked outta the ether is more reliable? :rolleyes:
    I am going by the referendum ;17.4 million voters , the most that have ever voted for anything in Britain and the 84% that voted for the parties that said they would respect the referendum in the following general election .


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    #236
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Seeing as Brexiters think there should be only one referendum on Britain's membership of the EU, surely it's time to disregard the mere 51.9% who voted for Brexit in 2016 as it is in contravention of the clearly expressed democratic wishes of the 67.23% of the UK electorate who voted to stay in the EU in 1975.

    That's the logical outcome of the Brexit idiocy on this issue.


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    #237
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,496 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blinding wrote: »
    I am going by the referendum ;17.4 million voters , the most that have ever voted for anything in Britain and the 84% that voted for the parties that said they would respect the referendum in the following general election .

    And have you watched how parliament has turned itself inside out trying to implement it? The dithering, the resignations etc etc. The debate even?

    There is a reason for that. It has to do with MP's reflecting what they are being told out in their constituencies.


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    #238
    Jimbo789
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Jimbo789


    Why not have an independent republic of Northern Ireland? Ireland and the U.K. can leave them to fund and govern themselves. They can decide for themselves if they want to be in EU or not.


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    #239
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    blinding wrote: »
    Most of the Brits just want to get on with it . Many are very perplexed that the Result has not been followed through particularly after the General Election where parties that said they would respect the referendum result got 84% .
    What you're saying here is that many British voters are stupid, which seems uncharitable. Anybody who is "perplexed" that the result has not been followed through has either failed to notice that Art 50 notice was served well over a year ago, or has failed to grasp that Article 50 notice runs for a period of two years, which hasn't yet elapsed. If "many" British voters are "perplexed" by such simple facts as these well, forgive me, but maybe holding a referendum on any subject isn't such a crash-hot idea, and maybe it would be unwise to attach too much significance to a referendum result that you seem to think rest on the votes of half-wits.


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    #240
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    What you're saying here is that many British voters are stupid, which seems uncharitable. Anybody who is "perplexed" that the result has not been followed through has either failed to notice that Art 50 notice was served well over a year ago, or has failed to grasp that Article 50 notice runs for a period of two years, which hasn't yet elapsed. If "many" British voters are "perplexed" by such simple facts as these well, forgive me, but maybe holding a referendum on any subject isn't such a crash-hot idea, and maybe it would be unwise to attach too much significance to a referendum result that you seem to think rest on the votes of half-wits.
    I don’t think you like the Democracy of the Referendum and of the General Election as much as I do .


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    #241
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,496 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blinding wrote: »
    I don’t think you like the Democracy of the Referendum and of the General Election as much as I do .

    Which is all in the past. A lot of water has flowed under those bridges since.


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