Anti-vaxxers

sullivlo · 04-08-2018 6:28pm

Mike Hoch wrote: »

They're not my claims. But it would be a very unlikely coincidence for someone to start feeling adverse effects straight after a vaccine and it to be completely unrelated.

GreeBo wrote: »

1 case it of millions of patients is an unlikely coincidence?

When I was 7 I had a nosebleed and my mam used a bag of frozen green beans to stop the bleeding. I didn’t eat green beans for years because I was convinced they caused my nosebleed.

When I was 9 I had a Chinese takeaway and there were cashew nuts in it. I got the flu the next week, and I blamed cashew nuts on the flu.

Cause =/= correlation.

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Often people who have adverse reactions to vaccines are already immunocompromised, meaning that they have an underlying - potentially/probably undiagnosed - illness or disorder of their immune system, so vaccines can trigger things differently in their bodies. Again, these cases are not so frequent, but they often account for the serious adverse reactions that can occur from vaccines.

And it’s these people who we need to vaccinate for. The people who cannot be vaccinated. I have a student who would love to be vaccinated because he lives in fear of catching the measles, but he has an autoimmune disorder that means he can’t be vaccinated.

blanch152 · 04-08-2018 10:16pm

Mike Hoch wrote: »

Yet I asked four questions specifically raised by the film, and a handful of my own, and you haven't answered one of them.

I'm not saying the film is right or wrong. I'm just looking for a comprehensive step by step debunking of its most dramatic claims.

I was down on the beach today looking out to sea and I was wondering what happens when you sail over the edge?

Could you explain to me what happens when you sail over the edge, without introducing any complicated astronomy or gravity or any of that science mumbo-jumbo?

waxmoth · 04-08-2018 11:14pm

sullivlo wrote: »

....
Often people who have adverse reactions to vaccines are already immunocompromised, meaning that they have an underlying - potentially/probably undiagnosed - illness or disorder of their immune system, so vaccines can trigger things differently in their bodies. Again, these cases are not so frequent, but they often account for the serious adverse reactions that can occur from vaccines.
....

If this was the message coming from the medical fraternity and a system was put in place to identify the susceptible cohort and treat them differently there would not be the issue there now is with vaccination.
Waiting for vaccines to trigger autoimmunity does not seem like best practice, particularly in a population with a known genetic predisposition and often low vitamin D status.

Graces7 · 04-08-2018 11:18pm

sullivlo wrote: »

-

Often people who have adverse reactions to vaccines are already immunocompromised, meaning that they have an underlying - potentially/probably undiagnosed - illness or disorder of their immune system, so vaccines can trigger things differently in their bodies. Again, these cases are not so frequent, but they often account for the serious adverse reactions that can occur from vaccines.

Agree. My own situation .

And it’s these people who we need to vaccinate for. The people who cannot be vaccinated. I have a student who would love to be vaccinated because he lives in fear of catching the measles, but he has an autoimmune disorder that means he can’t be vaccinated.[/QUOTE]

Do not agree; there are other factors here...

Capt'n Midnight · 04-08-2018 11:35pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I was down on the beach today looking out to sea and I was wondering what happens when you sail over the edge?

Could you explain to me what happens when you sail over the edge, without introducing any complicated astronomy or gravity or any of that science mumbo-jumbo?

The vacuum of space means there's a constant wind pushing you back. :rolleyes:

There's lots of sites out there like https://www.badscience.net/ that have no hesitation in ripping Big Pharma apart and are very critical of biased trials.

Also this is what NASA don't want you to see

blanch152 · 04-08-2018 11:49pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Agree. My own situation .

Do not agree; there are other factors here...

What other factors?

How do we protect those who cannot be vaccinated because of their compromised immune systems from the idiocy of those who refuse to be vaccinated?

I am aware of a few individuals who are very scared by the recent measles outbreaks in Dublin and Limerick and whose lives are at risk because of the mammys on Facebook who believe the quacks.

old_aussie · 05-08-2018 12:37am

A POSTER shaming parents for not vaccinating their kids has gone viral - but not everyone agrees with it.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/6884691/doctors-surgerys-brutally-honest-sign-not-vaccinating-kids-viral/

Just stop paying parents child allowances until they can prove their children are vaccinated.

sullivlo · 05-08-2018 6:49am

waxmoth wrote: »

If this was the message coming from the medical fraternity and a system was put in place to identify the susceptible cohort and treat them differently there would not be the issue there now is with vaccination.
Waiting for vaccines to trigger autoimmunity does not seem like best practice, particularly in a population with a known genetic predisposition and often low vitamin D status.

How would you propose screening every child before the age of 6 weeks, prior to their first vaccination? Or test for a disease that may not have symptoms? Or that may not have any genetic markers? Or that may take more than 6 weeks to return results (& there is scientific rationale to do with mothers passing on immunity to babies, which wanes rapidly, thus needing early vaccination)? And who should pay for this screening? And when there is a screw up in a screening service, who is at fault? And if a genetic screening test shows that the baby is at risk of developing certain illnesses or degenerative conditions, is there an ethical or moral obligation to inform the parents, who in turn have to inform the kids, who in turn have to inform insurance companies and banks...

Genuine questions.

sullivlo · 05-08-2018 7:03am

Graces7 wrote: »

When you ask a straight question I will give a straight answer. OK? OK!

The twists in your post ....and when you answer the points in my post...

sullivlo wrote: »

I’m not familiar with the side effects page of the HSE website having vanished, so I can’t commeny on that. Side effects are going to happen; it’s fairly unavoidable. Many are mild but some can be more serious.

As another poster said, it’s the risk/reward scenario. The reward of population benefitting from herd immunity far outweighs the risks of people having side effects.

This is a good website that highlights how effective vaccines can be:
https://fred.publichealth.pitt.edu/proj/measles/

On an aside, although related to the risk/reward. I have a long term issue with my stomach that requires regular colonoscopies. They have risks of bowel perforation in 1 out of 1000 procedures, give or take. It also periodically requires CT scans, which expose my body to high levels of radiation, but the reward of monitoring progress outweighs the risk of side effects. A few years ago I was in hospital and an older lady, I think she was a nun, had a CT scan for diagnostic purposes, but had a severe reaction afterwards and ended up having cardiac arrest and dying on the ward. That is a risk, but if people were to avoid CT scans their health may suffer as from a diagnostic perspective there is nothing really better.

I know people who have had side effects from vaccines, but I also know people who have had serious, in one case fatal, side effects of illnesses that were preventable by vaccination, but who weren’t vaccinated for whatever reason.

I think for every scaremongering story that is published about vaccines that there should be a line written for balance. If the article says “man develops narcolepsy after getting flu vaccine” the line for balance should be “yet 10,000 others who got the vaccine did not develop narcolepsy and nobody got the flu”. Adds a layer of perspective.

Now - I will repeat the previous posters question: has your opinion on the HPV vaccine changed after the recent cervical cancer cases?

Graces7 wrote: »

sullivlo wrote: »

-

Often people who have adverse reactions to vaccines are already immunocompromised, meaning that they have an underlying - potentially/probably undiagnosed - illness or disorder of their immune system, so vaccines can trigger things differently in their bodies. Again, these cases are not so frequent, but they often account for the serious adverse reactions that can occur from vaccines.

Agree. My own situation.

And it’s these people who we need to vaccinate for. The people who cannot be vaccinated. I have a student who would love to be vaccinated because he lives in fear of catching the measles, but he has an autoimmune disorder that means he can’t be vaccinated.

Do not agree; there are other factors here...

Graces7 you’re back! Any chance of you answering the questions posed to you previously in the thread? And what are the other factors involved in my student being afraid of catching the measles? Curious.

He is not a unique case by the way.

Before my aunt died of cancer she had chemotherapy, which wiped her immune system, which meant she couldn’t fight infection herself, which meant that any vaccines she had had, would no longer be effective. Same as my friend who died of cancer, her chemo meant she had no immune system. She got the flu (preventable by vaccination) and developed pneumonia, and nearly died. Same as a friend of mine who has colitis and who gets infusions of low dose chemo to suppress her immune system during a flare up. She caught whooping cough (preventable by vaccination) and missed almost 6 months of work due to complications of the whoop.

I am surprised that you are anti vaccine when you say you’re immunocompromised; you’re the main beneficiary of herd immunity. Check out the link in my post above (where I answered your questions and asked you some questions of my own - I guess you must have missed it) - it’s a graphic that shows herd immunity. It uses measles as the pathogen, but you could substitute that for anything.

Blazer · 05-08-2018 8:56am

It's pointless arguing with these people because they're too stupid to realise they're wrong.
I've two autistic children and its never even crossed my mind to blame vaccines for this.
My sister in law's child is also autistic and the muppet tried to persuade me that the mmr caused his condition. :rolleyes:
I equate all these people with the same muppets who shared all those posts on facebook about the hospital in the UK murdering that children to cover up a vaccine scandal..i mean how frakkin stupid do you have to be to believe that.
Thank christ we have exams and entry points to weed out stupid people to prevent these people from impacting on other people's lives...although social media is starting to erase that advantage now.

Dravokivich · 05-08-2018 9:32am

old_aussie wrote: »

A POSTER shaming parents for not vaccinating their kids has gone viral - but not everyone agrees with it.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/6884691/doctors-surgerys-brutally-honest-sign-not-vaccinating-kids-viral/

Just stop paying parents child allowances until they can prove their children are vaccinated.

How do you prove it? I no longer have the slip that was stamped when he got them.

sullivlo · 05-08-2018 10:00am

Dravokivich wrote: »

How do you prove it? I no longer have the slip that was stamped when he got them.

Blood tests to check antibody levels, but that’s a bit extreme. GPs will have a record of vaccines given.

AndrewJRenko · 05-08-2018 10:32am

Blazer wrote: »

I equate all these people with the same muppets who shared all those posts on facebook about the hospital in the UK murdering that children to cover up a vaccine scandal..i mean how frakkin stupid do you have to be to believe that.
Thank christ we have exams and entry points to weed out stupid people to prevent these people from impacting on other people's lives...although social media is starting to erase that advantage now.

This raises an interesting question about these debates here on boards and elsewhere - is it possible for the average layperson to really, really get to grips with these issues to any level of competence by reading a few papers/books/discussions.

Just think about your own job or profession for a moment - do you think it is reasonable for the average layperson to get to grips with your own job or profession to the extent that they can make expert decisions with a bit of Googling?

Assuming that the answer is no, then why would you think it is possible for the average layperson to get to grips with the benefits/risks of vaccination?

sullivlo · 05-08-2018 10:41am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

This raises an interesting question about these debates here on boards and elsewhere - is it possible for the average layperson to really, really get to grips with these issues to any level of competence by reading a few papers/books/discussions.

Just think about your own job or profession for a moment - do you think it is reasonable for the average layperson to get to grips with your own job or profession to the extent that they can make expert decisions with a bit of Googling?

Assuming that the answer is no, then why would you think it is possible for the average layperson to get to grips with the benefits/risks of vaccination?

I’m an average layperson when it comes to politics, but I educate myself by reading as much as possible around the issues (using good sources rather than Twitter or blogs) and then make an informed decision.

I like to think I can tell the difference between anecdotal and fact.

You don’t need to be an expert in anything to have an opinion; you do however need to be open to others perspectives and respect their opinion, and maybe see it from their perspective. The issue with people who are anti vax is that they don’t seem to be able to do any of these things.

AndrewJRenko · 05-08-2018 11:01am

sullivlo wrote: »

You don’t need to be an expert in anything to have an opinion;

You're right, you don't need to be expert in anything to have an opinion.

But you know what they say about the similarity between opinions and assholes - everybody has one.

Having and opinion does not mean the opinion has any value. What is the value of the average layman's opinion on your professional expertise?

Blazer · 05-08-2018 11:25am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Assuming that the answer is no, then why would you think it is possible for the average layperson to get to grips with the benefits/risks of vaccination?

I never said it was possible. I've absolutely no idea where you got that from.
I put my fate in the experts in their fields.
I'm an expert in my field in IT. I might as well be talking quantum physics when talking to a few of my friends or family when trying to explain.
Same if Stephen Hawkins was talking to me...I'd know he's talking about stars and black holes etc but on his level he could be talking gibberish for all I know..
As someone already said I read on both sides and come to a uniformed decision which is basically that I trust an expert over a layperson.

Blazer · 05-08-2018 11:27am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Having and opinion does not mean the opinion has any value. What is the value of the average layman's opinion on your professional expertise?

Practically zero.
Maybe if they studied in that field for a few years at a college or through experience then I would consider it..but then they wouldn't be a layperson anymore would they?

Harry Palmr · 05-08-2018 11:33am

One imagines flat earthers (be they literal or metaphorical), climate change sceptics, anti vaccination believers, Brexit backers and Trump voters largely occupy the same space in a Venn diagram.

L.Jenkins · 05-08-2018 11:45am

Anti-Vax, flat earth, climate skeptic trump voters....

Capt'n Midnight · 05-08-2018 11:55am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

This raises an interesting question about these debates here on boards and elsewhere - is it possible for the average layperson to really, really get to grips with these issues to any level of competence by reading a few papers/books/discussions.

Just think about your own job or profession for a moment - do you think it is reasonable for the average layperson to get to grips with your own job or profession to the extent that they can make expert decisions with a bit of Googling?

Assuming that the answer is no, then why would you think it is possible for the average layperson to get to grips with the benefits/risks of vaccination?

For some things you have to use statistics to extract data from the background noise.

For other stuff it's a little clearer.
In 1900 the global popullation was 1.6 billion
By 1978 Smallpox had killed between 0.3 to 0.5 billion people.
In the last 40 years it's infected nobody.
And there are no adverse reactions to vaccination because
WE DON'T NEED TO USE THAT VACCINE ANYMORE.

Vaccination against fatal diseases that only infect humans is a no brainer.
The worst case is a very low risk for one generation , so low it's hard to measure, against ZERO risk for all future generations.

You can use China before it opened up as a control.
So no capitalist Big Pharma agenda there.

There's also this,

https://www.science20.com/quantum_diaries_survivor/correlation_causation_independence-98944

Mike Hoch · 05-08-2018 11:56am

sullivlo wrote: »

As I have posted previously in the thread, I have worked in vaccine development. Vaxxed is about as scientifically accurate as Sharknado. Your questions were raised as a result of watching Vaxxed, therefore your questions are inherently biased against vaccines.

.

This is pretty gas. You think I am part of some type of problem because I watched an alternative viewpoint and, rather than actually take everything in the film as gospel, asked the people in the know here for a clarification on eight of the more extreme points raised in the film. To be honest the shrill emotional reactions from some here, rather than attempting to answer the questions (although one or two people did, I'm still to re read them with any degree of concentration) is pretty alarming.

Again, I'm not anti vaccine, I've more reading on it to do for a clearer picture. But if any parent raising a few valid concerns is normally treated in this manner it's little wonder people are wary of the MMR. Your position, given your interest in this, should be to educate people about the wrongs of the documentary, not to describe someone as a biased part of the problem for having the nerve to watch it.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

One imagines flat earthers (be they literal or metaphorical), climate change sceptics, anti vaccination believers, Brexit backers and Trump voters largely occupy the same space in a Venn diagram.

I've no idea about climate change and flat eartherism is guff. But you seem to correlate Brexiteerism and voting for Trump with stupidity. Some might say voting for Clinton and remain correlates with herd mentality and celebrity endorsements. Both the Clinton and remain campaigns operated on Project Fear- the impending apocalypse if you choose the wrong vote. The USA is approaching virtual full employment, ISIS is all but finished, North Korea threatened into submission, and any reasonable economic forecast predicts Brexit will be a resounding success. By the time of the next US election the UK will be 18 odd months out of the EU and the economic state of the US, along with their foreign relations, will become more clear.

I'd advise bookmarking this post.

Blazer · 05-08-2018 12:15pm

Mike Hoch wrote: »

I've no idea about climate change and flat eartherism is guff. But you seem to correlate Brexiteerism and voting for Trump with stupidity. Some might say voting for Clinton and remain correlates with herd mentality and celebrity endorsements. Both the Clinton and remain campaigns operated on Project Fear- the impending apocalypse if you choose the wrong vote. The USA is approaching virtual full employment, ISIS is all but finished, North Korea threatened into submission, and any reasonable economic forecast predicts Brexit will be a resounding success. By the time of the next US election the UK will be 18 odd months out of the EU and the economic state of the US, along with their foreign relations, will become more clear.

I'd advise bookmarking this post.

You're part of the problem because you have watched and read and you have decided already you are right ahead of practically every expert in the field.

And North Korea bullied into submission?
The latest report on NK is they are bypassing the blockades and still attempting to build a nuclear weapon.
Kim has played Trump for the fool he is and bought time for his country to develop these weapons.

jh79 · 05-08-2018 12:22pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

One imagines flat earthers (be they literal or metaphorical), climate change sceptics, anti vaccination believers, Brexit backers and Trump voters largely occupy the same space in a Venn diagram.

In Ireland most anti vaxxers would be left leaning politcally, the type that would be vegan/ veggie and shop at the happy pear. Buy into the whole "Organic" charade.

batgoat · 05-08-2018 12:31pm

Mike Hoch wrote: »

This is pretty gas. You think I am part of some type of problem because I watched an alternative viewpoint and, rather than actually take everything in the film as gospel, asked the people in the know here for a clarification on eight of the more extreme points raised in the film. To be honest the shrill emotional reactions from some here, rather than attempting to answer the questions (although one or two people did, I'm still to re read them with any degree of concentration) is pretty alarming.

Again, I'm not anti vaccine, I've more reading on it to do for a clearer picture. But if any parent raising a few valid concerns is normally treated in this manner it's little wonder people are wary of the MMR. Your position, given your interest in this, should be to educate people about the wrongs of the documentary, not to describe someone as a biased part of the problem for having the nerve to watch it.

I've no idea about climate change and flat eartherism is guff. But you seem to correlate Brexiteerism and voting for Trump with stupidity. Some might say voting for Clinton and remain correlates with herd mentality and celebrity endorsements. Both the Clinton and remain campaigns operated on Project Fear- the impending apocalypse if you choose the wrong vote. The USA is approaching virtual full employment, ISIS is all but finished, North Korea threatened into submission, and any reasonable economic forecast predicts Brexit will be a resounding success. By the time of the next US election the UK will be 18 odd months out of the EU and the economic state of the US, along with their foreign relations, will become more clear.

I'd advise bookmarking this post.

You've watched a "documentary" that is at the same level of 911 conspiracy documentaries. Here's one for you, I've recently started on immunosuppressants and this means that I can no longer receive live vaccines so I'm dependent upon herd immunity in a lot of instances. So I really have very little time for people who are actively endangering people with compromised immune systems.

You watched a video with poor sources that was backed by people who are charlatans and frauds. Think critically before putting those who don't have a choice in danger.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-08-2018 12:38pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

One imagines flat earthers (be they literal or metaphorical), climate change sceptics, anti vaccination believers, Brexit backers and Trump voters largely occupy the same space in a Venn diagram.

Brexit isnt a big overlap compared to other parts of this cults package deal.

Fluoride. About half of the anti-fluoride papers I've seen use levels above EU limits as the control. This is like wanting alcohol prohibition because in excess it can cause cirrhosis but totally ignoring any health benefits of low levels of alcohol.

Chemtrails, roughly half the takeoff weight of an aircraft flying over the North Atlantic is fuel, and no-one lives there. It makes no sense unless you believe in homeotherapy and even then...

Mobile phone radiation, 5 billion used daily and no evidence of a risk, but anecdotal evidence suggests they may even be used to save lives.

Homeotherapy. Brownian motion is a thing you can see. To move particles the air/water molecules need momentum. So either they are too big to be diluted repeatedly or move too fast to "remember". It's both. At body temperature they move at about 650m/s or 1500 mph in old money. Note: The speed of sound in liquid is a lot higher than in air.

[/rant]

AndrewJRenko · 05-08-2018 12:39pm

Mike Hoch wrote: »

and any reasonable economic forecast predicts Brexit will be a resounding success.

Excuse me?

dr.fuzzenstein · 05-08-2018 12:39pm

Mike Hoch wrote: »

any reasonable economic forecast predicts Brexit will be a resounding success.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

Mike Hoch · 05-08-2018 12:43pm

Blazer wrote: »

You're part of the problem because you have watched and read and you have decided already you are right ahead of practically every expert in the field.

.

I watched an alternative viewpoint and asked here what the truth was behind eight of the most concerning issues raised.

Only two or so people have even attempted to answer those questions. The rest of you have chastised me for watching it in the first place.

That doesn't fill the neutral with a lot of confidence.

batgoat wrote: »

You've watched a "documentary" that is at the same level of 911 conspiracy documentaries. Here's one for you, I've recently started on immunosuppressants and this means that I can no longer receive live vaccines so I'm dependent upon herd immunity in a lot of instances. So I really have very little time for people who are actively endangering people with compromised immune systems.

You watched a video with poor sources that was backed by people who are charlatans and frauds. Think critically before putting those who don't have a choice in danger.

That's not a rebuttal of any of my questions. It's an incoherent rant.

The tone here, you'd swear you actually did have something to hide, such is the derision for even asking questions.

sullivlo · 05-08-2018 12:45pm

Mike Hoch wrote: »

sullivlo wrote: »

As I have posted previously in the thread, I have worked in vaccine development. Vaxxed is about as scientifically accurate as Sharknado. Your questions were raised as a result of watching Vaxxed, therefore your questions are inherently biased against vaccines.

.

This is pretty gas. You think I am part of some type of problem because I watched an alternative viewpoint and, rather than actually take everything in the film as gospel, asked the people in the know here for a clarification on eight of the more extreme points raised in the film. To be honest the shrill emotional reactions from some here, rather than attempting to answer the questions (although one or two people did, I'm still to re read them with any degree of concentration) is pretty alarming.

Again, I'm not anti vaccine, I've more reading on it to do for a clearer picture. But if any parent raising a few valid concerns is normally treated in this manner it's little wonder people are wary of the MMR. Your position, given your interest in this, should be to educate people about the wrongs of the documentary, not to describe someone as a biased part of the problem for having the nerve to watch it.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

One imagines flat earthers (be they literal or metaphorical), climate change sceptics, anti vaccination believers, Brexit backers and Trump voters largely occupy the same space in a Venn diagram.

I've no idea about climate change and flat eartherism is guff. But you seem to correlate Brexiteerism and voting for Trump with stupidity. Some might say voting for Clinton and remain correlates with herd mentality and celebrity endorsements. Both the Clinton and remain campaigns operated on Project Fear- the impending apocalypse if you choose the wrong vote. The USA is approaching virtual full employment, ISIS is all but finished, North Korea threatened into submission, and any reasonable economic forecast predicts Brexit will be a resounding success. By the time of the next US election the UK will be 18 odd months out of the EU and the economic state of the US, along with their foreign relations, will become more clear.

I'd advise bookmarking this post.

But I did respond to your questions from the “documentary”, at least those that I could. You hypothesise that the CDC are the big bad wolves, yet they don’t actually legislate for vaccines. I replied about different vaccines, why they’re effective, how they’re developed, all things your post queried, yet you choose to focus on me disliking Vaxxed :rolleyes:

May I ask, what is it that you do for a living?

Mike Hoch · 05-08-2018 12:46pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

You should probably do your own research instead of watching Sky News take on it.

Although it seems in this thread it's better to be spoon fed on a no questions back basis.

Anti-vaxxers

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