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Anti-vaxxers

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    #1052
    waxmoth
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭waxmoth


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is the Indo which usually gets the wrong end of the stick on sensationalist health stories but this is interesting:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/unique-health-risk-crowds-at-papal-mass-run-risk-of-infectious-diseases-37191262.html
    ...

    The lead story on the front page of the same edition was ‘Sleep disorder linked to reused flu vaccine’. The associated digital article: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/revealed-children-got-double-dose-of-narcolepsy-jab-37191291.html
    Tens of thousands of doses of Pandemrix were initially offered nationwide by the HSE in 2009 and into 2010. In March 2010, the HSE advised a halt to the use of Pandemrix.
    However, just eight months later, the HSE faced a problem with a threatened shortfall of normal winter flu vaccines.
    With significant stocks of Pandemrix still unused, on January 7, 2011, the HSE re-issued Pandemrix as a replacement flu vaccine if other supplies ran out.


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    #1053
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    In particular, the following extract from one case is interesting: "The factual record simply does not support Petitioners' contention that the MMR vaccine had any connection to R.A.'s ASD [autism spectrum disorder] diagnosis".
    /QUOTE]
    And yet Hannah Polling who was supposed to be one of the test cases for these 5000 claimants was settled for 1.5 million before it started. The vaccine court played around with words that it was an underlying mitochondrial disorder that was aggravated by the vaccines to cause her autism and that there is still no link between vaccines and autism. But it was her own father a neurologist who discovered the mitochondrial problem after she regressed. How many children have the same issue that is undiscovered.
    Now parents have realised that using the word autism in their claim is a straight no from vaccine court so they claim under encephalopathy leading to autism like features. Is there a difference? The children are still diagnosed as autistic under DSM-IV.


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    #1054
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,185 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    skepticalme wrote: »
    In particular, the following extract from one case is interesting: "The factual record simply does not support Petitioners' contention that the MMR vaccine had any connection to R.A.'s ASD [autism spectrum disorder] diagnosis".
    /QUOTE]
    And yet Hannah Polling who was supposed to be one of the test cases for these 5000 claimants was settled for 1.5 million before it started. The vaccine court played around with words that it was an underlying mitochondrial disorder that was aggravated by the vaccines to cause her autism and that there is still no link between vaccines and autism. But it was her own father a neurologist who discovered the mitochondrial problem after she regressed. How many children have the same issue that is undiscovered.
    Now parents have realised that using the word autism in their claim is a straight no from vaccine court so they claim under encephalopathy leading to autism like features. Is there a difference? The children are still diagnosed as autistic under DSM-IV.

    This article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccine-injury-case-offer/ clears it up. The kid got a fever, and her latent autism came through. The vaccine didn't cause her autism - she was likely to become autistic, anyway.


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    #1055
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    Her father Jon Poling and another neurologist Dr Zimmerman disagree with that. It wasn't one vaccine, it was 9 vaccines at once.


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    #1056
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    skepticalme wrote: »
    Her father Jon Poling and another neurologist Dr Zimmerman disagree with that. It wasn't one vaccine, it was 9 vaccines at once.

    I think you are relying too much on a single claim, and a dubious one at that, which was never peer reviewed - her father and his colleague?


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    #1057
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    Maci Whining Pianist wrote: »
    I think you are relying too much on a single claim, and a dubious one at that, which was never peer reviewed - her father and his colleague?

    It was a case study on Hannah.
    Dr. Zimmerman was also the paediatric neurologist that dealt with Hannah after the vaccines. His report was in the vaccine court files which are sealed. He also submitted a report for her seizure disorder due to vaccines which was conceded later. That is public and in it he states that she may have led a normal healthy life but for the vaccine injury.


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    #1058
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,934 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    skepticalme wrote: »
    It was a case study on Hannah.
    Dr. Zimmerman was also the paediatric neurologist that dealt with Hannah after the vaccines. His report was in the vaccine court files which are sealed. He also submitted a report for her seizure disorder due to vaccines which was conceded later. That is public and in it he states that she may have led a normal healthy life but for the vaccine injury.

    Exalting one person while dismissing the mountains of evidence for vaccine safety isn't very logical. There's no proof that this was a vaccine injury, whatever that term even means.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1059
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    skepticalme wrote: »
    It was a case study on Hannah.

    "Case study" is what we're calling one-off anecdotes now, is it?


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    #1060
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,968 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    As an aside: not only is Andrew Wakefield still railing against vaccination in the USA in particular, he has a new girlfriend: former supermodel Elle MacPherson. You really couldn't make this up ...

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #1061
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,815 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    bnt wrote: »
    As an aside: not only is Andrew Wakefield still railing against vaccination in the USA in particular, he has a new girlfriend: former supermodel Elle MacPherson. You really couldn't make this up ...

    Theres a lot of money to be made being a prominent whackjob, quack and counter-culture figure. See: Alex Jones


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    #1062
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    bnt wrote: »
    As an aside: not only is Andrew Wakefield still railing against vaccination in the USA in particular, he has a new girlfriend: former supermodel Elle MacPherson. You really couldn't make this up ...

    What sort of chat up lines can he possibly have ????

    Or did she just hear "doctor" and think "maybe he has friends in plastics ??"


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    #1063
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Exalting one person while dismissing the mountains of evidence for vaccine safety isn't very logical. There's no proof that this was a vaccine injury, whatever that term even means.

    Except there is proof or else the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program would not have conceded her case and sealed the files.
    There is a Vaccine Injury Table for adverse effects.
    There may be evidence that vaccines are safe but there is no evidence that vaccines are safe for everyone.


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    #1064
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    "Case study" is what we're calling one-off anecdotes now, is it?

    She may have been a one off, that won't be known until more research is done which there are no plans to do.
    But anecdotal I think not.


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    #1065
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    skepticalme wrote: »
    Except there is proof or else the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program would not have conceded her case and sealed the files.
    There is a Vaccine Injury Table for adverse effects.
    There may be evidence that vaccines are safe but there is no evidence that vaccines are safe for everyone.

    Damn sight safer than the current measles outbreak:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/ireland-s-measles-outbreak-worsened-by-fall-in-vaccinations-1.3476332


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    #1066
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    skepticalme wrote: »
    She may have been a one off, that won't be known until more research is done which there are no plans to do.
    But anecdotal I think not.

    It fits the very dictionary definition of purely anecdotal, i.e. isolated, not replicated under scientific conditions.


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    #1067
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,185 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    skepticalme wrote: »
    Except there is proof or else the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program would not have conceded her case and sealed the files.
    There is a Vaccine Injury Table for adverse effects.
    There may be evidence that vaccines are safe but there is no evidence that vaccines are safe for everyone.

    No, there's no proof. There's suspicion.

    Vaccine's are known not to be 100% safe. There is risk with any medical treatment.


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    #1068
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    It fits the very dictionary definition of purely anecdotal, i.e. isolated, not replicated under scientific conditions.

    And unverified, too.


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    #1069
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    It fits the very dictionary definition of purely anecdotal, i.e. isolated, not replicated under scientific conditions.

    Anecdotal
    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

    Her father said they had more medical tests done on Hannah than any other claimant. Her case study does not meet the definition of anecdotal.


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    #1070
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    Igotadose wrote: »
    No, there's no proof. There's suspicion.

    Vaccine's are known not to be 100% safe. There is risk with any medical treatment.

    There is risk but when an adverse event happens, immediately the vaccine is swatted away as a reason. Being upfront about the risks and dealing with any fallout would sway more people towards vaccination.
    It's the denial if anything goes wrong that has people hesitant to take the risk.


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    #1071
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    skepticalme wrote: »
    Anecdotal
    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

    Her father said they had more medical tests done on Hannah than any other claimant. Her case study does not meet the definition of anecdotal.

    Anecdotal, right there.


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    #1072
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    skepticalme wrote: »
    She may have been a one off, that won't be known until more research is done which there are no plans to do.
    But anecdotal I think not.

    You need to look at the definition of anecdotal: Based on observations or casual indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis.


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    #1073
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Anecdotal, right there.


    The proof of the tests is in the case study. Not anecdotal.


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    #1074
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    skepticalme wrote: »
    The proof of the tests is in the case study. Not anecdotal.

    Her father saying something does not make it a case study.


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    #1075
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    batgoat wrote: »
    Her father saying something does not make it a case study.


    Are we not going around in circles? Have you read the case study?


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    #1076
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    batgoat wrote: »
    Her father saying something does not make it a case study.

    It not being peer-reviewed research pretty much definitively makes it not a case study.


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    #1077
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    batgoat wrote: »
    Her father saying something does not make it a case study.

    It's genuinely scary to think these people walk amongst us!!!!!


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    #1078
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    bnt wrote: »
    As an aside: not only is Andrew Wakefield still railing against vaccination in the USA in particular, he has a new girlfriend: former supermodel Elle MacPherson. You really couldn't make this up ...

    It is amazing. Every time you think the US has hit absolute rock bottom in terms of stupidity, they start drilling.
    They must be into negative figures by now.
    A plastic door stop would have more brains.


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    #1079
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    skepticalme wrote: »
    Are we not going around in circles? Have you read the case study?

    What scientific peer review publication did it appear in.


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    #1080
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    It is amazing. Every time you think the US has hit absolute rock bottom in terms of stupidity, they start drilling.

    Stupidity knows no borders.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/measles-dublin-3-4172774-Aug2018/

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0322/949217-hpv-vaccine-uptake/


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    #1081
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    Stupidity knows no borders.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/measles-dublin-3-4172774-Aug2018/

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0322/949217-hpv-vaccine-uptake/

    One of the comments on the Journal link is saying "once you have the illness you have lifetime immunity".

    A) Assuming you survive unscathed and
    B) Assuming everyone you've infected similarly comes through okay.
    C) Assuming everyone THEY infected.... you get the drift.


This discussion has been closed.
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