Police shoot disabled man; Sweden

A victim of the times we live in

We don't know exactly what happened so we can't blame anyone yet. But with the evidence we do have (male with mental disorder walking around town at 4am with what looked like a gun) it looks like the cops didn't do anything wrong. We don't know what the interaction was, we don't know what was said, how that man acted if confronted, he could have pretended it was a real gun if he has 'the mentality of a 3 year old' who somehow managed to run away from home quite often. I'll wait for all the facts, but as it is now, we can't say who was right or wrong.

And the best part about these threads are the people who say 'Why not give a warning shot, why not use a taser, why not blah blah blah'. Ye are not cops in a country where getting shot is a possibility. You cannot imagine what that decision is like. Cops don't shoot to kill, they shoot to incapacitate, and if it ends in death so be it. They aim for the largest part of the body, the torso. No, you cannot shoot a gun out of someones hand, no you should not taser someone with a potential loaded firearm (restricts muscles and if the finger is on the trigger it will fire, there are videos out there showing this).

Playing devils advocate, why did the parents allow a man with mental issues and the intellectual capacity of a 3 year old run away? He does this often, so it sounds like the parents let him do it. Same in this country, person runs away for whatever reason, family ring the cops and that's that. Why weren't they out looking for him? Did they give a description, state he had a toy gun, explain to the cops his intellectual capacity, give a photo so it can be put out there. I've no doubt if those cops got a description it may have ended differently.

Wow, this is tough for all parties involved.
While I am not happy to say it, sounds to me for this profile (disabled individual that runs away from home) micro-chipping could have been useful.
- mentioning it in the Swedish context, where thousands are happy inserting microchips into their bodies.

Graces7 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/0803/982953-stockholm-sweden-shooting/

Sounds like the police were just doing their job. Was the person who gave the imitation firearm to the disabled man behaving responsibly? The police should not have shot to kill, they should have winged him. Lessons to be learned all round.

Gatling wrote: »

Standard beat cops in Sweden and most other countries who have armed police use 9mm -.45 pistols ,
At 4am it's difficult to tell the difference between a toy and a real gun and considering many real pistol can be pretty small and compact it's difficult to distinguish.

If this man was well known to police as having a mental disability and lack of ability to communicate it may have been a different outcome ,I wouldn't blame the parents for allowing him to run away ,he may have the IQ of a three year old but he was an adult there is only so much you could do to stop him , for all we know his parents were asleep in bed when he wandered off

Not to mention that crime rate and gun homicides have been skyrocketing in Sweden over the past decade. The police there must be especially under pressure when they see what might be an armed killer.

The outcome would possibly have been different 20 years ago when the real possibility of someone being out there to fire a gun and kill wouldn’t have been as present in the policeman’s mind.

bluewolf wrote: »

I can't edit easily on phone so - regarding where to aim - torso is a usa thing, iirc.
I read this a while ago:

https://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/a-note-from-sweden-on-use-of-force/

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo. If you need to shoot, it's serious enough to require you to shoot to incapacitate. What happens if you shot the armed man in the leg, he drops and shoots a civilian? Cop would be held responsible for that.

In theory it would be great to shoot the legs, back up, reasses, etc, but again, imo if it warrants a shot being fired to begin with, that shot should be at the largest mass of the suspect to prevent anything further from happening. If a warning shot is something that can be done, then it's not necessary. The only time an Irish Garda or American cop are advised to fire is to prevent a threat to life.

And where do you fire the warning shot? Over their shoulder, into the air, into the ground? Ballistics would show that that bullet could end up anywhere if shot into the ground or air. Shooting over his shoulder, where would that go? It's not safe to fire a warning shot, full stop.

I'm sure Scandinavian countries are trying to be less aggressive that our American counterparts, but gun crime is only starting to become a problem there. Gun crime in America has been around since day dot, so they're not only experiencing it now, they're used to it, it's part of life, and it has shown them that aiming for the largest mass is the best policy to prevent further incidents. I'm sure Sweden and co. will change in the future, but American cops won't ever change to shooting legs or giving warning shots.

Simple line to remember that I mentioned above. If a gun has to be fired, it should be to stop a suspect. Warning shots and shooting limbs should be kept to the movies.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo

As you are an ex-AGS member, do armed AGS members not operate degrees of force?

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

some of these cops couldn't care less how many people they kill during the day and just go right on with their lives and sleep soundly every night. Now that's terrifying...

That’s just paranoid thinking.

Not saying a killer cop can’t exist. But no way it is something common. And it’s probably even less likely in Sweden than in the US.

So yeah most likely that policeman will lice for the rest of their life with this burden on their conscience.

Gatling wrote: »

I know we've had multiple cases here where people with replica guns have threatened to shoot guards (including armed) who have them essentially surrounded them and yet no killings

I suppose they opened a dialog? The parents of the dead guy mentioned that their son wasn't able to talk much.

the_syco wrote: »

I suppose they opened a dialog? The parents of the dead guy mentioned that their son wasn't able to talk much.

Having downs and autism's could have left him non verbal ,and not actually able to communicate with someone who doesn't know what's he's trying to say or do ,
He was probably more or just as scared as the cops called to someone waving / carrying a gun at that time of the morning , possibly add flashing lights and torches and a gang of lads (cops)shouting at him to comply , terrifying situation

Gatling wrote: »

Having downs and autism's could have left him non verbal ,and not actually able to communicate with someone who doesn't know what's he's trying to say or do ,
He was probably more or just as scared as the cops called to someone waving / carrying a gun at that time of the morning , possibly add flashing lights and torches and a gang of lads (cops)shouting at him to comply , terrifying situation

Similarly for the cops, even if they copped his conditions, he's still a man with a gun (as far as they knew.) When my 18 year old autistic nephew gets into one of his outbursts, he starts shouting, varying between gibberish (to me) and fairly violent and shocking sayings.

Landing on a scene like that, and with what looked like a gun, even the best will in the world could be tested.