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Child Item

Police shoot disabled man; Sweden

Graces7

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/0803/982953-stockholm-sweden-shooting/

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Das Reich

I think if it was a refugee the police would never shoot him.

SEPT 23 1989

A victim of the times we live in

[Deleted User]

A horrible set of circumstances that have tragically cost this poor guy his life. It's awful for everyone involved.

Potential-Monke

We don't know exactly what happened so we can't blame anyone yet. But with the evidence we do have (male with mental disorder walking around town at 4am with what looked like a gun) it looks like the cops didn't do anything wrong. We don't know what the interaction was, we don't know what was said, how that man acted if confronted, he could have pretended it was a real gun if he has 'the mentality of a 3 year old' who somehow managed to run away from home quite often. I'll wait for all the facts, but as it is now, we can't say who was right or wrong.

And the best part about these threads are the people who say 'Why not give a warning shot, why not use a taser, why not blah blah blah'. Ye are not cops in a country where getting shot is a possibility. You cannot imagine what that decision is like. Cops don't shoot to kill, they shoot to incapacitate, and if it ends in death so be it. They aim for the largest part of the body, the torso. No, you cannot shoot a gun out of someones hand, no you should not taser someone with a potential loaded firearm (restricts muscles and if the finger is on the trigger it will fire, there are videos out there showing this).

Playing devils advocate, why did the parents allow a man with mental issues and the intellectual capacity of a 3 year old run away? He does this often, so it sounds like the parents let him do it. Same in this country, person runs away for whatever reason, family ring the cops and that's that. Why weren't they out looking for him? Did they give a description, state he had a toy gun, explain to the cops his intellectual capacity, give a photo so it can be put out there. I've no doubt if those cops got a description it may have ended differently.

Gatling

Graces7 wrote: »

there was no gun..not even a realistic replica... do the police not have eyes? Telescopic sights?

Standard beat cops in Sweden and most other countries who have armed police use 9mm -.45 pistols ,
At 4am it's difficult to tell the difference between a toy and a real gun and considering many real pistol can be pretty small and compact it's difficult to distinguish.

If this man was well known to police as having a mental disability and lack of ability to communicate it may have been a different outcome ,I wouldn't blame the parents for allowing him to run away ,he may have the IQ of a three year old but he was an adult there is only so much you could do to stop him , for all we know his parents were asleep in bed when he wandered off

mvl

Wow, this is tough for all parties involved.
While I am not happy to say it, sounds to me for this profile (disabled individual that runs away from home) micro-chipping could have been useful.
- mentioning it in the Swedish context, where thousands are happy inserting microchips into their bodies.

Mrs OBumble

What the hell kind of caregivers allow someone with the mental age of a three-year old to roam around outside at 4am - and give him access to even toy guns.

realitykeeper

Graces7 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/0803/982953-stockholm-sweden-shooting/

Sounds like the police were just doing their job. Was the person who gave the imitation firearm to the disabled man behaving responsibly? The police should not have shot to kill, they should have winged him. Lessons to be learned all round.

Potential-Monke

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/man-with-down-syndrome-shot-dead-by-swedish-police

Bit more information. Grainy image of the toy gun. So far, I'm still laying the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the parents. Doesn't matter if he was the nicest person in the world, a report came in of a potential armed male walking the streets at 4am. He was missing for 'hours' at that stage.

I'm gonna wait for the full investigation to be over.

Bob24

Gatling wrote: »

Standard beat cops in Sweden and most other countries who have armed police use 9mm -.45 pistols ,
At 4am it's difficult to tell the difference between a toy and a real gun and considering many real pistol can be pretty small and compact it's difficult to distinguish.

If this man was well known to police as having a mental disability and lack of ability to communicate it may have been a different outcome ,I wouldn't blame the parents for allowing him to run away ,he may have the IQ of a three year old but he was an adult there is only so much you could do to stop him , for all we know his parents were asleep in bed when he wandered off

Not to mention that crime rate and gun homicides have been skyrocketing in Sweden over the past decade. The police there must be especially under pressure when they see what might be an armed killer.

The outcome would possibly have been different 20 years ago when the real possibility of someone being out there to fire a gun and kill wouldn’t have been as present in the policeman’s mind.

Raging_Ninja

Sweden is on heightened alert due to Islamist violence and attacks on police. So far in Sweden this year alone 6 people have been killed by police - this in a country of just under 10 million.

With a little under half the population we've had 1 person killed by the Gardaí and there are years where there are no police-involved shootings.

[Deleted User]

Potential-Monke wrote: »

We don't know exactly what happened so we can't blame anyone yet. But with the evidence we do have (male with mental disorder walking around town at 4am with what looked like a gun) it looks like the cops didn't do anything wrong. We don't know what the interaction was, we don't know what was said, how that man acted if confronted, he could have pretended it was a real gun if he has 'the mentality of a 3 year old' who somehow managed to run away from home quite often. I'll wait for all the facts, but as it is now, we can't say who was right or wrong.

And the best part about these threads are the people who say 'Why not give a warning shot, why not use a taser, why not blah blah blah'. Ye are not cops in a country where getting shot is a possibility. You cannot imagine what that decision is like. Cops don't shoot to kill, they shoot to incapacitate, and if it ends in death so be it. They aim for the largest part of the body, the torso. No, you cannot shoot a gun out of someones hand, no you should not taser someone with a potential loaded firearm (restricts muscles and if the finger is on the trigger it will fire, there are videos out there showing this).

Playing devils advocate, why did the parents allow a man with mental issues and the intellectual capacity of a 3 year old run away? He does this often, so it sounds like the parents let him do it. Same in this country, person runs away for whatever reason, family ring the cops and that's that. Why weren't they out looking for him? Did they give a description, state he had a toy gun, explain to the cops his intellectual capacity, give a photo so it can be put out there. I've no doubt if those cops got a description it may have ended differently.

I can't edit easily on phone so - regarding where to aim - torso is a usa thing, iirc.
I read this a while ago:

https://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/a-note-from-sweden-on-use-of-force/

Gatling

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

With a little under half the population we've had 1 person killed by the Gardaí and there are years where there are no police-involved shootings.

But compare the fact we've a mostly unarmed police force standard Guard's only carry batons and pepper spray,
Sweden has roughly 22,000 armed officers patrolling the streets ,
If we gave the 12,000 + guards firearms as standard we would be looking at more than 1 shooting every few years

Potential-Monke

bluewolf wrote: »

I can't edit easily on phone so - regarding where to aim - torso is a usa thing, iirc.
I read this a while ago:

https://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/a-note-from-sweden-on-use-of-force/

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo. If you need to shoot, it's serious enough to require you to shoot to incapacitate. What happens if you shot the armed man in the leg, he drops and shoots a civilian? Cop would be held responsible for that.

In theory it would be great to shoot the legs, back up, reasses, etc, but again, imo if it warrants a shot being fired to begin with, that shot should be at the largest mass of the suspect to prevent anything further from happening. If a warning shot is something that can be done, then it's not necessary. The only time an Irish Garda or American cop are advised to fire is to prevent a threat to life.

And where do you fire the warning shot? Over their shoulder, into the air, into the ground? Ballistics would show that that bullet could end up anywhere if shot into the ground or air. Shooting over his shoulder, where would that go? It's not safe to fire a warning shot, full stop.

I'm sure Scandinavian countries are trying to be less aggressive that our American counterparts, but gun crime is only starting to become a problem there. Gun crime in America has been around since day dot, so they're not only experiencing it now, they're used to it, it's part of life, and it has shown them that aiming for the largest mass is the best policy to prevent further incidents. I'm sure Sweden and co. will change in the future, but American cops won't ever change to shooting legs or giving warning shots.

Simple line to remember that I mentioned above. If a gun has to be fired, it should be to stop a suspect. Warning shots and shooting limbs should be kept to the movies.

Lash Into The Pints

I feel bad for the guy's parents but this is the New Sweden where the police are on edge due to the high levels of violence they now face.

Signore Fancy Pants

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo

As you are an ex-AGS member, do armed AGS members not operate degrees of force?

Wanderer2010

TG1 wrote: »

But I highly doubt the unfortunate police officers involved in the above mentioned incident are delighted with what they've done.

This is probably going to affect them for the rest of their lives. A bit of compassion for people going above and beyond on a daily basis when it does go wrong is not a bad thing.
.

Will it though? There have been so many cases of people getting shot by police and all the videos of black lives matter etc that makes me think some of these cops couldn't care less how many people they kill during the day and just go right on with their lives and sleep soundly every night. Now that's terrifying...

Bob24

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

some of these cops couldn't care less how many people they kill during the day and just go right on with their lives and sleep soundly every night. Now that's terrifying...

That’s just paranoid thinking.

Not saying a killer cop can’t exist. But no way it is something common. And it’s probably even less likely in Sweden than in the US.

So yeah most likely that policeman will lice for the rest of their life with this burden on their conscience.

Sin City

F*cking Murican Swedish police

[Deleted User]

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's the main point of aiming here in Ireland and in the UK too. This warning shots, shoot at the legs craic, it's stupid imo. If you need to shoot, it's serious enough to require you to shoot to incapacitate. What happens if you shot the armed man in the leg, he drops and shoots a civilian? Cop would be held responsible for that.

In theory it would be great to shoot the legs, back up, reasses, etc, but again, imo if it warrants a shot being fired to begin with, that shot should be at the largest mass of the suspect to prevent anything further from happening. If a warning shot is something that can be done, then it's not necessary. The only time an Irish Garda or American cop are advised to fire is to prevent a threat to life.

And where do you fire the warning shot? Over their shoulder, into the air, into the ground? Ballistics would show that that bullet could end up anywhere if shot into the ground or air. Shooting over his shoulder, where would that go? It's not safe to fire a warning shot, full stop.

I'm sure Scandinavian countries are trying to be less aggressive that our American counterparts, but gun crime is only starting to become a problem there. Gun crime in America has been around since day dot, so they're not only experiencing it now, they're used to it, it's part of life, and it has shown them that aiming for the largest mass is the best policy to prevent further incidents. I'm sure Sweden and co. will change in the future, but American cops won't ever change to shooting legs or giving warning shots.

Simple line to remember that I mentioned above. If a gun has to be fired, it should be to stop a suspect. Warning shots and shooting limbs should be kept to the movies.

Pretty sure in Germany they use warning shots, and have a correspondingly low death rate

the_syco

Shooting warning shots may be a good idea when dealing with someone who doesn't have a gun, but if the perp does have a gun, shooting warning shots will make the perp assume that the cops are shooting at them, and return fire.

Irish Guitarist

The story isn't very detailed. Did he point a realistic looking gun at them thinking it was some kind of game? Did they tell him to drop it? Or did they just shoot him without warning?

The man frequently ran off on his own, according to his father Rickard Torell, adding he could not understand why police had shot his son.

Had he reported this to the police? If not how were they expected to know he had Downs syndrome? If the father hadn't reported him missing does that mean someone else phoned the police saying there was a man walking around with a gun?

Gatling

the_syco wrote: »

Shooting warning shots may be a good idea when dealing with someone who doesn't have a gun, but if the perp does have a gun, shooting warning shots will make the perp assume that the cops are shooting at them, and return fire.

Not necessarily true ,but it's pure pure speculation to say firing a warning shot will save lives ,

I know we've had multiple cases here where people with replica guns have threatened to shoot guards (including armed) who have them essentially surrounded them and yet no killings ,
It likely all this crap on social media about how Sweden has deployed the army to the streets because the police cannot do their job safely ,and various claims of the police getting attacked by migrants on a regular basis.
It makes the job a hundred times harder if your on constant edge

I would be interested to see what or who is fanning the flames

the_syco

Gatling wrote: »

I know we've had multiple cases here where people with replica guns have threatened to shoot guards (including armed) who have them essentially surrounded them and yet no killings

I suppose they opened a dialog? The parents of the dead guy mentioned that their son wasn't able to talk much.

Sofiztikated

There's a huge difference in:

Cops landing and saying "Hah, look at the retard with the capgun, watch this!" *Bang*

And

Cops landing to a scene, where an unknown man looks to be armed, doesn't comply with commands (I'm guessing the guy with Downs Syndrome and Autism might not be the best at listening to strangers shouting at him,) and gets shot at for being (unknowingly) a threat.

I'd like to think that the second scene is more likely to be the truth.

Gatling

the_syco wrote: »

I suppose they opened a dialog? The parents of the dead guy mentioned that their son wasn't able to talk much.

Having downs and autism's could have left him non verbal ,and not actually able to communicate with someone who doesn't know what's he's trying to say or do ,
He was probably more or just as scared as the cops called to someone waving / carrying a gun at that time of the morning , possibly add flashing lights and torches and a gang of lads (cops)shouting at him to comply , terrifying situation

The One Doctor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Graces why on earth would you want this thread deleted?

Usual Irish attitude of when something we don't like or can't handle happens the first instinct is to censor it, cover it up, smother it and sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen.

Child abuse, domestic violence, rape, pedophilia etc and now police shootings.

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to brush this one under the rug.

That's silly. Deleting the thread is not censorship. A news blackout would be censorship.

Sofiztikated

Gatling wrote: »

Having downs and autism's could have left him non verbal ,and not actually able to communicate with someone who doesn't know what's he's trying to say or do ,
He was probably more or just as scared as the cops called to someone waving / carrying a gun at that time of the morning , possibly add flashing lights and torches and a gang of lads (cops)shouting at him to comply , terrifying situation

Similarly for the cops, even if they copped his conditions, he's still a man with a gun (as far as they knew.) When my 18 year old autistic nephew gets into one of his outbursts, he starts shouting, varying between gibberish (to me) and fairly violent and shocking sayings.

Landing on a scene like that, and with what looked like a gun, even the best will in the world could be tested.

KERSPLAT!

Jaysus.

blanch152

A couple of things are strange here.

(1) If he ran off several times before, why hadn't measures been taken to ensure it wouldn't happen again, especially if he only had a mentality of three?

(2) If someone looks like an adult, did they not think that playing guns was a dangerous pursuit (especially as the only picture we have so far makes it look like a good replica)?

Those are questions for the parents.

For the police, the standard questions about use of force and its appropriateness are there, but the parents appear to have been negligent at best.