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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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    #2942
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    devnull wrote: »
    It's rare for me to stick up for Irish Rail, but the problem is that for a €3 flat fare, Irish Rail for these commuter towns especially, could end up seeing their revenue cut in at least half to the point where they could be getting no more than £1.50 per passenger for journeys of 50km or more whereas they are getting around treble that now.

    There would have to be a massive increase in passenger numbers, you're talking probably mid two digits in order to wipe out the lost revenue and there simply isn't that much capacity left in the system and to provide more capacity you add more costs and you'll be left with the same problem.

    You have to remember that a flat fare means revenue is split. Revenue is split with LEAP 90 now, but it's not capped at €3 and each operator is only losing 50c rather than losing what could be the bulk of their revenue.



    That's great, all we have to do now is find tens of thousands of passengers who will not travel at peak time and will only travel at off-peak times and tell them if they travel at peak bad things will happen to them so they better not do it.

    There is not that kind of demand for off-peak travel, that is why it is off-peak and not peak. You can look at all your simplistic theories in any way you like, but the simple fact is that if we go to a €3 fare for instance, for passengers who use multipile modes, Irish Rail could lose up to two thirds of the revenue they get for said passengers today.

    It is not sensible that we should be paying Irish Rail just €1.50 to be carrying passengers what could be distances of approx 50km and the idea that we can just add more passengers to the mix to make it up is fanciful to say the least, because that in itself adds more costs and there just isn't the capacity to add the number of passengers that would be needed to even get close to making it revenue neutral to what there is now.

    You need to look at this from an operational, revenue and financial point of view. If the NTA wants to include the commuter lines in a €3 fare it needs to increase the subsidy by a decent amount or take the revenue risk itself.

    There is no requirement for IR to go with a €3 flat fare a 50km journey. They could require the current fare, but NTA offer the add on of the free transfer to other modes, or for a small extra charge. It is early days, and consultations are just starting.

    If PT becomes the norm, then it will be the norm, and cars will be left outside the M50. Parking is the key to this - if you annot park your car inside he M50, then take the bus/train/Luas.

    Perhaps subsidy is needed to get this started. How much does a motorway cost? €600 million for the M17, M18, and the Galway bypass (each). M20 is predicted to be that amount as well.

    How much PT can you get for that amount of money?


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    #2943
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,233 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    There is a lot of Politics at play here,and no better man than Dermot O Leary to recognise an opportunity to make considerable headway in establishing a presence on the Irish political stage.....the only fly in the ointment could be if Jarrett Walker is persuaded to run for President :eek:

    Where he'd quickly realise that he's now got less power than when he was a consultant.


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    #2944
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    There is no requirement for IR to go with a €3 flat fare a 50km journey. They could require the current fare, but NTA offer the add on of the free transfer to other modes, or for a small extra charge. It is early days, and consultations are just starting.

    But if you're using a flat fare of say €3 for DART, Bus, Luas and Short Hop Commuter then that is all IR would get at the absolute maximum and it could be as low as €1.50 if the passenger then goes on to use Dublin Bus, as that €3 now needs to be split between DB and IR. If you add LUAS into that you could be looking at Irish Rail getting €1, but it's unlikely someone will use all three modes.

    The other way around it is for example using a €3 fare for the DART and a €1 add on for Commuter Rail where the extra €1 goes to Irish Rail and is not subject to splitting but the other €3 fare gets split as normal, although it does make things rather more complicated.

    It'll still work out in a way that is cheaper for the public transport user than it does at the moment at the end of the day.
    Perhaps subsidy is needed to get this started. How much does a motorway cost? €600 million for the M17, M18, and the Galway bypass (each). M20 is predicted to be that amount as well. How much PT can you get for that amount of money?

    Yes - this is what I would hope, but the problem is that should the unions get the sniff that there is more money in the kitty they might try and use this to extract a pay rise rather than having this money to be used for covering lost revenue.


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    #2945
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Lots of posters up around the Drimnagh area to ‘save the 122’. There is a local meeting happening this Thursday. I got speaking with some passengers at a bus stop today, they were very angry at the plans. They were well clued into the proposals and knew what Bus Connects involved. They felt annoyed their link to the SCR, Camden Street and city centre was being removed.

    Looking at the map, there will be a missing link in Drimnagh if the 122 is cancelled. It is one of the few services to be removed without any local connecting service taking it’s place. It’s also quite a busy route and carries good loadings to and from the Camden Street area. For many, it’s over a 1km walk to the new D Spine or O to connect with the SCR.


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    #2946
    0gac3yjefb5sv7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭0gac3yjefb5sv7


    When are these routes due to come into effect?


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    #2947
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Pheonix10 wrote: »
    When are these routes due to come into effect?

    2020 at the earliest but I'd be 99% certain the plan will be changed to some extent. It will be interesting to see what's proposed after the public consultation.


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    #2948
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Regarding the survey - what do I need to do so other people can take the survey on the same device (ipad)?


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    #2949
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Clear the browser cache. But if you're trying to collect multiple submissions like a petition I suspect they'll do IP matching also. Need to encourage people to do it themselves


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    #2950
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,233 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »
    Regarding the survey - what do I need to do so other people can take the survey on the same device (ipad)?

    Just email them, they take the submission through email as well. I don't have the address to hand though.


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    #2951
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Looking through the whole layout again on what came through the door yesterday for my area and it really does need to change a fair bit from the proposal. From what I'm gathering from people it's not acceptable anyway as it stands.


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    #2952
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Looking through the whole layout again on what came through the door yesterday for my area and it really does need to change a fair bit from the proposal. From what I'm gathering from people it's not acceptable anyway as it stands.

    This is a misunderstanding of what a public consultation is.


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    #2953
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭jd


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    There is a lot of Politics at play here,and no better man than Dermot O Leary to recognise an opportunity to make considerable headway in establishing a presence on the Irish political stage

    Is Dermot associated with any particular party?


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    #2954
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    jd wrote: »
    Is Dermot associated with any particular party?

    Mé Féin


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    #2955
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    L1011 wrote: »
    Clear the browser cache. But if you're trying to collect multiple submissions like a petition I suspect they'll do IP matching also. Need to encourage people to do it themselves

    Not everyone has a device or knows how to access the Internet. I have a whole family of bus users relying on my helping them submit their opinion. Is there an alternative to online so they can do it themselves?


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    #2956
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »
    L1011 wrote: »
    Clear the browser cache. But if you're trying to collect multiple submissions like a petition I suspect they'll do IP matching also. Need to encourage people to do it themselves

    Not everyone has a device or knows how to access the Internet. I have a whole family of bus users relying on my helping them submit their opinion. Is there an alternative to online so they can do it themselves?
    Go to a library to use their internet access?
    Or post it to the NTA following info here: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/pubic-consultation-on-the-dublin-area-bus-network-redesign/
    Can one presume that the people making submissions have read the plans offline prior to making a submission?


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    #2957
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »
    Not everyone has a device or knows how to access the Internet. I have a whole family of bus users relying on my helping them submit their opinion. Is there an alternative to online so they can do it themselves?

    You can email or ring them


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    #2958
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Dardania wrote: »
    Go to a library to use their internet access?
    Or post it to the NTA following info here: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/pubic-consultation-on-the-dublin-area-bus-network-redesign/
    Can one presume that the people making submissions have read the plans offline prior to making a submission?

    Some have read the whole report on my ipad. All have at least read chapter 7.

    An online only survey is not going to be representative of everyone. But maybe that's what they want. Will they have paper surveys at their information sessions?


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    #2959
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »
    Dardania wrote: »
    Go to a library to use their internet access?
    Or post it to the NTA following info here: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/pubic-consultation-on-the-dublin-area-bus-network-redesign/
    Can one presume that the people making submissions have read the plans offline prior to making a submission?

    Some have read the whole report on my ipad. All have at least read chapter 7.

    An online only survey is not going to be representative of everyone. But maybe that's what they want. Will they have paper surveys at their information sessions?
    That I don't know - I'm sure though they could perform the submission on behalf of your relatives in person?


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    #2960
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    KD345 wrote: »
    Lots of posters up around the Drimnagh area to ‘save the 122’. There is a local meeting happening this Thursday. I got speaking with some passengers at a bus stop today, they were very angry at the plans. They were well clued into the proposals and knew what Bus Connects involved. They felt annoyed their link to the SCR, Camden Street and city centre was being removed.

    Looking at the map, there will be a missing link in Drimnagh if the 122 is cancelled. It is one of the few services to be removed without any local connecting service taking it’s place. It’s also quite a busy route and carries good loadings to and from the Camden Street area. For many, it’s over a 1km walk to the new D Spine or O to connect with the SCR.

    Yeah the lack of services around Drimnagh and Crumlin will be pretty bad. Needs another local service IMO, or route the D1 down from the hospital down to Suir Road or something (and double yellow line the whole roads)


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    #2961
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »
    Some have read the whole report on my ipad. All have at least read chapter 7.

    An online only survey is not going to be representative of everyone. But maybe that's what they want. Will they have paper surveys at their information sessions?

    Of course they will. They are actively looking for feedback. It's not some conspiracy to ruin the bus service or change it to suit some sub section of society.


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    #2962
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Of course they will. They are actively looking for feedback. It's not some conspiracy to ruin the bus service or change it to suit some sub section of society.

    Have you tweeted this news to Dermot ... :) ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #2963
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Most riddiculous complaint from the NBRU they dislike how Walker called bus user's riders are they using the snowflake generation to favour their agenda. Rider is just the American term for a passenger or a user I'm not a big fan of Americanisms myself but come on the guy is American so it's natural that he uses American terms rather than Irish ones.

    They also doesn't like the term transit lines that's the term he used and familiar with. It would be like a transport workers union in the States getting offended if an Irish person or a Brit said bus routes and public transport user. Jesus wept.

    https://twitter.com/NBRU_DUBLIN/status/1024756108735533056?s=19


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    #2964
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Most riddiculous complaint from the NBRU they dislike how Walker called bus user's riders are they using the snowflake generation to favour their agenda. Rider is just the American term for a passenger or a user I'm not a big fan of Americanisms myself but come on the guy is American so it's natural that he uses American terms rather than Irish ones.

    They also doesn't like the term transit lines that's the term he used and familiar with. It would be like a transport workers union in the States getting offended if an Irish person or a Brit said bus routes and public transport user. Jesus wept.

    https://twitter.com/NBRU_DUBLIN/status/1024756108735533056?s=19

    If I see "current network facilitates choice" once again I think I'll scream. I wonder when the last time he travelled on a Dublin Bus was?


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    #2965
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Can't believe someone is actually investing in Twitter bots to work against this plan (and that they don't think it's blatantly obvious when a bot is a bot)

    https://twitter.com/Theresa00464403/status/1024734050597187585


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    #2966
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Most riddiculous complaint from the NBRU they dislike how Walker called bus user's riders are they using the snowflake generation to favour their agenda. Rider is just the American term for a passenger or a user I'm not a big fan of Americanisms myself but come on the guy is American so it's natural that he uses American terms rather than Irish ones.

    LOL well "riders" is certainly a much nicer term then "Skulls"


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    #2967
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Most riddiculous complaint from the NBRU they dislike how Walker called bus user's riders are they using the snowflake generation to favour their agenda. Rider is just the American term for a passenger or a user I'm not a big fan of Americanisms myself but come on the guy is American so it's natural that he uses American terms rather than Irish ones.

    They also doesn't like the term transit lines that's the term he used and familiar with. It would be like a transport workers union in the States getting offended if an Irish person or a Brit said bus routes and public transport user. Jesus wept.

    https://twitter.com/NBRU_DUBLIN/status/1024756108735533056?s=19

    Is anyone else getting the urge to go through every NBRU tweet and highlight the ones where they use the word passengers and reply back with 'They're not passengers, they're people'. What a thing for the NBRU to to complain about, it's really petty shít.


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    #2968
    pclive
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭pclive


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Is anyone else getting the urge to go through every NBRU tweet and highlight the ones where they use the word passengers and reply back with 'They're not passengers, they're people'. What a thing for the NBRU to to complain about, it's really petty shít.

    Go on, do it!


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    #2969
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Can't believe someone is actually investing in Twitter bots to work against this plan (and that they don't think it's blatantly obvious when a bot is a bot)

    https://twitter.com/Theresa00464403/status/1024734050597187585

    Looking forward to seeing the comparison routes of now to Bus Connect to see the difference in commuting times for much of North Dublin. I hope this time they provide information on the peak times as opposed to 12.00 on a weekday.

    Any update on when this is due out?


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    #2970
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    naughtb4 wrote: »
    Looking forward to seeing the comparison routes of now to Bus Connect to see the difference in commuting times for much of North Dublin. I hope this time they provide information on the peak times as opposed to 12.00 on a weekday.

    Any update on when this is due out?


    I have no idea, but if you have a specific comparison journey you'd like, I'd certainly be happy to help!


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    #2971
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭howiya


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I have no idea, but if you have a specific comparison journey you'd like, I'd certainly be happy to help!

    The journey time element of the plan is the part I'm most interested in. NTA's journey planner currently puts my journey to work at 38 minutes which is almost right but it's probably closer to 35 minutes.

    Google maps puts the car journey at 16-28 minutes. It has never taken me more than 20 minutes.

    While I rarely use the car for work (preference) I would love to see the public transport journey get closer to the time of the car journey. I just can't see how the plan will reduce my journey because the major difference in journey time is the 1km walk to the bus stop, which won't change and then a short walk at the other end which will become a longer walk.

    None of that is to say I'm against the plan, just that if I lived and worked somewhere else it would benefit me more than it will.


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