Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

View Profile · 26-07-2018 09:50PM

Turnipman wrote:

All that they want is respect and fair play - and their Union "experts" have told them that giving up a few day's pay and demeaning themselves by walking round and round a roundabout waving placards in their best uniforms like a herd of deranged hamsters, will earn them more respect?

Eh what??

It's called striking. That's the method used when employers are unwilling to negotiate with their workforce.
Maybe Google the process if you don't understand the principle.

donkey balls · 26-07-2018 11:15PM

Have a few mates flying for FR some captains others FO the wages that is being bandied about is way off, It reminds me any time there was some sort of industrial action with the ESB the average wage was rolled out of 80k.
Had a friend working for them at the time and no way was he on 80k plus, As for pilots getting the command then retiring on a captains pension that's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.
Any one with a private pension cannot access it till the earliest age of 50 and how much is in the fund depends on what the individual has put in to the fund over the years.

L1011 · 27-07-2018 06:32AM

Promotion just before retirement is very common in places with DB pensions. Something Ryanair pilots don't have

27-07-2018 07:21AM

View Profile wrote: »

Eh what??

It's called striking. That's the method used when employers are unwilling to negotiate with their workforce.
Maybe Google the process if you don't understand the principle.

Why not do what sensible people would do. Get another job. If your boss is treating you like sh**e, why would you stay there? They knew the salary structure and employment conditions when they took the jobs.

Mebuntu · 27-07-2018 07:30AM

Forsa and Ryanair just went head to head on Morning Ireland. No doubt it will be up on the RTE Morning Ireland website later on in the morning.

Brendan Bendar · 27-07-2018 07:30AM

Game set and match to Kenny Jacobs on MI just now.

Bernard was left floundering a bit.

billy few mates · 27-07-2018 07:34AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not do what sensible people would do. Get another job. If your boss is treating you like sh**e, why would you stay there? They knew the salary structure and employment conditions when they took the jobs.

So when your 'boss starts treating you like sh***' you should move on...?
Is that really what you're suggesting...?

27-07-2018 07:40AM

billy few mates wrote: »

So when your 'boss starts treating you like sh***' you should move on...?
Is that really what you're suggesting...?

Yes, though by the sounds of it they were always treated like sh**e. It’s a self respect thing. You just don’t accept it and move on to where your talents are appreciated.

billy few mates · 27-07-2018 07:41AM

Mebuntu wrote: »

Forsa and Ryanair just went head to head on Morning Ireland. No doubt it will be up on the RTE Morning Ireland website later on in the morning.

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Game set and match to Kenny Jacobs on MI just now.

Bernard was left floundering a bit.

For those that may have missed it the Ryanair spokesman managed to last a whole five seconds before lapsing into Mini-MOL, he started well enough but it was all a bit familiar after that...
"Something something Aer Lingus pilots union, something something only 25%, something something unwanted individuals from competitor airlines".

27-07-2018 07:45AM

billy few mates wrote: »

For those that may have missed it the Ryanair spokesman managed to last a whole five seconds before lapsing into Mini-MOL, he started well enough but it was all a bit familiar after that...
"Something something Aer Lingus pilots union, something something only 25%, something something unwanted individuals from competitor airlines".

When people say “something something” they’ve lost the battle.

billy few mates · 27-07-2018 07:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, though by the sounds of it they were always treated like sh**e. It’s a self respect thing. You just don’t accept it and move on to where your talents are appreciated.

Great idea, so when an employer needs to downsize the workforce they should just "start treating them like sh***" until they move on...:rolleyes:

Do you read your posts before you submit them..?

billy few mates · 27-07-2018 07:47AM

Deleted User wrote: »

When people say “something something” they’ve lost the battle.

There's a "battle" ...?

LeChienMefiant · 27-07-2018 07:51AM

notharrypotter wrote: »

The phrase "when you are explaining you are loosing" applies.

I think this needs to evolve to 'when you're blaming the "complicit" meedja' you're losing.

billy few mates · 27-07-2018 08:09AM

It seems that the main sticking point to further discussions is that one side want to dictate who they speak to.
'You can have union representation but we decide who we'll allow speak on your behalf'. Bizarre.
The only way forward that I can see is third party intervention but Ryanair don't seem to want that either.

plodder · 27-07-2018 08:25AM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Game set and match to Kenny Jacobs on MI just now.

Bernard was left floundering a bit.

I didn't hear all of it, but he sounded smoother and more polished. Scratching below the surface though, it sounds like it has become quite personal.

Ryanair have no right to dictate who the union gets advice from. They can confide in Willie Walsh or Donald Trump for that matter, if they want. I do think they should meet Ryanair half way on the issue, and conduct the negotiations in good faith, face to face, without having to run out the door every few minutes to talk to the real string puller. Bottom line is that Ryanair pilots shouldn't be fighting any battles other than for Ryanair pilots.

Mebuntu · 27-07-2018 08:27AM

billy few mates wrote: »

It seems that the main sticking point to further discussions is that one side want to dictate who they speak to.
'You can have union representation but we decide who we'll allow speak on your behalf'. Bizarre.

I'll have to listen back again later on today to be sure but I think Ryanair didn't say there were Aer Lingus pilots actually in the room but that the meetings were being adjourned so that Forsa could talk to them outside the room and to "one person in particular" (no prizes for guessing who that might be

.) If true, I'd 100% agree with Ryanair on that one.

billy few mates wrote: »

The only way forward that I can see is third party intervention

I'd 100% agree with you on that one.

27-07-2018 09:20AM

billy few mates wrote: »

Great idea, so when an employer needs to downsize the workforce they should just "start treating them like sh***" until they move on...:rolleyes:

Do you read your posts before you submit them..?

What’s downsizing got to do with the reasons for the strike? Is it not about pay and conditions?

Workers accept positions with a certain pay structure and working conditions. A few years down the line, they really have no point in rejecting those same conditions that they signed up for.
As the saying goes, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Anahita · 27-07-2018 09:31AM

For anyone interested in the Portugal-based (Edited) Ryan Air Staff situation, I found this article in the Portuguese press in English, posted 25-07-2018 14:35.

"The Ryanair cabin crews are on a European strike today and Thursday to demand the application of domestic law rather than Irish labour laws.

The Portuguese union complained today that yesterday (Tuesday) there was a serious illegal situation: Coercion of workers. The union said that Workers received a letter threatening them that if they did not fly on their days off that fell on strike days, they would be fired. “This is a crime in Portugal and I don’t know what the Portuguese government intends to do about all this proof that has been presented about how Ryanair treats its Portuguese workers”, the union added."

plodder · 27-07-2018 09:31AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What’s downsizing got to do with the reasons for the strike? Is it not about pay and conditions?

Workers accept positions with a certain pay structure and working conditions. A few years down the line, they really have no point in rejecting those same conditions that they signed up for.
As the saying goes, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

What if "getting out of the kitchen" means uprooting your family to move abroad?

Personally, I couldn't envisage ever going on strike, or even joining a union. It doesn't make sense in the business I'm in. But, that's partly because if I didn't like where I work, then I have choices to get another job in the city where I live.

Brendan Bendar · 27-07-2018 10:18AM

plodder wrote: »

I didn't hear all of it, but he sounded smoother and more polished. Scratching below the surface though, it sounds like it has become quite personal.

Ryanair have no right to dictate who the union gets advice from. They can confide in Willie Walsh or Donald Trump for that matter, if they want. I do think they should meet Ryanair half way on the issue, and conduct the negotiations in good faith, face to face, without having to run out the door every few minutes to talk to the real string puller. Bottom line is that Ryanair pilots shouldn't be fighting any battles other than for Ryanair pilots.

It’s a bit confusing for sure.

The FR pilots are members of Forsa which is a branch of IALPA which is connected to the Impact trades union.

Am I correct in assuming that?

The EI pilots are members of IALPA ?

Are they a branch of BALPA or aligned to Impact or SIPTU.

Someone please put me right.

billy few mates · 27-07-2018 10:50AM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

It’s a bit confusing for sure.

The FR pilots are members of Forsa which is a branch of IALPA which is connected to the Impact trades union.

Am I correct in assuming that?

The EI pilots are members of IALPA ?

Are they a branch of BALPA or aligned to Impact or SIPTU.

Someone please put me right.

No idea how they're all linked up but I would imagine IALPA (and BALPA) would compromise of pilots from many different airlines so it's a given that the committees would be made up of individuals from all the various airlines that they represent and that's just how it is.
A company can decide to either deal with unions or not deal with unions end of story, they can't have an 'A la Carte' approach where they can dictate which representatives they meet with no more than the union can dictate which of the management they will only deal with, it just won't work.
They need to engage with whoever the workforce have chosen to represent them or they don't. If they don't like what they hear or they don't want to concede on something then they can dig their heels in and do whatever they like.
This current position of refusing to engage properly because the boss doesn't like "a certain individual" is completely unsustainable and will only prolong the misery for the traveling public.
The longer this goes on the worse it is for all parties.
It's all about personalities now, if Ryanair can't get past that then they need third party intervention, end of story...

notharrypotter · 27-07-2018 12:28PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

It’s a bit confusing for sure.

The FR pilots are members of Forsa which is a branch of IALPA which is connected to the Impact trades union.

Am I correct in assuming that?

The EI pilots are members of IALPA ?

Are they a branch of BALPA or aligned to Impact or SIPTU.

Someone please put me right.

Forsa is the new name for IMPACT trade union.

IALPA is Irish Airline Pilots Assoication.
Clue is in the words Airline Pilots.
It is the professional association for pilots who fly for a living.
It is open to any pilot in Ireland who fly for a living to join.

It is affiliated/part of Forsa for Industrial relations purposes.

BALPA is British Airline Pilots Association and as the name implies no standing in the Republic of Ireland.

Brendan Bendar · 27-07-2018 12:43PM

notharrypotter wrote: »

Forsa is the new name for IMPACT trade union.

IALPA is Irish Airline Pilots Assoication.
Clue is in the words Airline Pilots.
It is the professional association for pilots who fly for a living.
It is open to any pilot in Ireland who fly for a living to join.

It is affiliated/part of Forsa for Industrial relations purposes.

BALPA is British Airline Pilots Association and as the name implies no standing in the Republic of Ireland.

Thanks for that..appreciate info.

LeChienMefiant · 27-07-2018 12:48PM

notharrypotter wrote: »

BALPA is British Airline Pilots Association and as the name implies no standing in the Republic of Ireland.

That's all very nationalistic, but it does seem the Ryanair pilots might have fared better under BALPA who would have a more diverse member base and experience. Dare I say it a slightly more professional outlook?

notharrypotter · 27-07-2018 01:03PM

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

That's all very nationalistic, but it does seem the Ryanair pilots might have fared better under BALPA who would have a more diverse member base and experience. Dare I say it a slightly more professional outlook?

BALPA have no standing in the Republic of Ireland.
No point joining say the South African Pilots Association either if you are based in Ireland no matter how diverse their membership base may be.

Horses for courses.
love to see what criteria you use to base "professional outlook" on.

LeChienMefiant · 27-07-2018 01:04PM

notharrypotter wrote: »

No point joining say the South African Pilots Association either if you are based in Ireland no matter how diverse their membership base may be.

Ryanair aren't in SA yet, the UK on the other hand is Ryanair's main market?

Bob24 · 27-07-2018 01:14PM

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

That's all very nationalistic, but it does seem the Ryanair pilots might have fared better under BALPA who would have a more diverse member base and experience. Dare I say it a slightly more professional outlook?

Instead of “Aer Lingus union”, Ryanair could have said “foreign union” to support their external influence storytelling :-D

But in all seriousness, why would irish employees seek representation from a union which has no presence in Ireland?

LuckyLloyd · 27-07-2018 01:25PM

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Sounds like they're winning. It's all about the meedja.

Transdev won the media battle but ended up meeting most of the original demands. It's all about leverage in the end.

LeChienMefiant · 27-07-2018 01:30PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Transdev won the media battle but ended up meeting most of the original demands. It's all about leverage in the end.

It's a bit different controlling a piece of major infrastructure in the city versus having the ability to shut down a little over a dozen flights a day that no one cares about.

LuckyLloyd · 27-07-2018 01:32PM

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

It's a bit different controlling a piece of major infrastructure in the city versus having the ability to shut down a little over a dozen flights a day that no one cares about.

So it's leverage then, not the media.

Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

Comments