What's the obsession middle aged lads have with cycling?

prinzeugen · 27-07-2018 12:12AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Is tears enough? I will endeavour to get the coroner's report.

Twat!

Still waiting for proof that motorists kill 3-4 a day.

Post it please!

ballyharpat · 27-07-2018 12:30AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Still waiting for proof that motorists kill 3-4 a day.

Post it please!

Seriously, it was 3-4 per week he said, and if you google, you would find it-youre actually quite irritating- http://www.thejournal.ie/road-deaths-4-3775959-Jan2018/

27-07-2018 12:45AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Is tears enough? I will endeavour to get the coroner's report.

It's nothing to do with the Coroner's report. You said that the case of death by suicide off the M50 bridge is included in the RSA death statistics. What is your source for this claim?

It's not a hard question. If you can say with certainty that this death is included in the RSA figures, then you must have a source for this - you must have read it or seen it somewhere. What's the problem with identifying your source?

prinzeugen · 27-07-2018 03:13AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's nothing to do with the Coroner's report. You said that the case of death by suicide off the M50 bridge is included in the RSA death statistics. What is your source for this claim?

It's not a hard question. If you can say with certainty that this death is included in the RSA figures, then you must have a source for this - you must have read it or seen it somewhere. What's the problem with identifying your source?

Suicide does not happen in Ireland! Read my fecking post! Coroner said misadventure. I told you the story.

Do you have a high viz and a helmet for the high horse you are on?

Do you have proof that motorists kill people? still waiting on the evidence on that.. You are a bull****ter.

You are the reason why people think cyclists are pricks. Whataboutary and deflection.

prinzeugen · 27-07-2018 03:21AM

ballyharpat wrote: »

Seriously, it was 3-4 per week he said, and if you google, you would find it-youre actually quite irritating- http://www.thejournal.ie/road-deaths-4-3775959-Jan2018/

Not the how and why. Pointless argument. Still no mention of the cause. The irritating thing is the lies militant cyclists post. Dont make it personal!

I will go on from now saying that cyclists are colliding with cars and cyclists should be illegal. They are throwing themselves under vehicles.

Cyclists need to ask themselves HOW and WHY people have been killed.

P_1 · 27-07-2018 03:21AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's nothing to do with the Coroner's report. You said that the case of death by suicide off the M50 bridge is included in the RSA death statistics. What is your source for this claim?

It's not a hard question. If you can say with certainty that this death is included in the RSA figures, then you must have a source for this - you must have read it or seen it somewhere. What's the problem with identifying your source?

Dude drop that line of questioning. Seriously if you cant tell it's a sensitive issue you really are missing some cop on

Lambay island · 27-07-2018 05:51AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Not the how and why. Pointless argument. Still no mention of the cause. The irritating thing is the lies militant cyclists post. Dont make it personal!

I will go on from now saying that cyclists are colliding with cars and cyclists should be illegal. They are throwing themselves under Ivehicles.

Cyclists need to ask themselves HOW and WHY people have been killed.

I hope you or anyone for that matter never have a family member that is killed as a result of dangerous driving.
Going around victim blaming is a sign of the lowest form of intelligence and indicates ignorance to basic facts.

PlaneSpeeking · 27-07-2018 10:05AM

Lambay island wrote: »

I hope you or anyone for that matter never have a family member that is killed as a result of dangerous driving.
Going around victim blaming is a sign of the lowest form of intelligence and indicates ignorance to basic facts.

You've been thanked by a poster who openly mocked, doubted and generally dismissed a collision with a cyclist who was breaking the law.

I was the injured party and so I am well aware of what I am talking about.

27-07-2018 10:24AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Suicide does not happen in Ireland! Read my fecking post! Coroner said misadventure. I told you the story.

Do you have a high viz and a helmet for the high horse you are on?

Do you have proof that motorists kill people? still waiting on the evidence on that.. You are a bull****ter.

You are the reason why people think cyclists are pricks. Whataboutary and deflection.

Once again, it is nothing to do with the Coronor's verdict. I'm simply asking for you to backup your claim that cases of death by suicide from road bridges are included in the RSA road death statistics.

If you have a source for this, please give details. If you don't have a source for this, please confirm that you don't have a source. It's not hard really.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Not the how and why. Pointless argument. Still no mention of the cause. The irritating thing is the lies militant cyclists post. Dont make it personal!

I will go on from now saying that cyclists are colliding with cars and cyclists should be illegal. They are throwing themselves under vehicles.

Cyclists need to ask themselves HOW and WHY people have been killed.

Indeed, you could go on saying that, but it would be a lie, with no evidence to support it. Unlike my statement about motorists killing 3 or 4 people each week. Here's just one example of the kind of analysis that RSA does on the road death statistics that confirm my statement:

http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/News-2016/Excessive-Speed-a-Factor-in-322-Road-Deaths-Between-2008-and-2012/

It answers your question about the HOW and the WHY - with excessive speed being one of the major factors. There's lots more on the RSA site if you want to go looking for it.

P_1 wrote: »

Dude drop that line of questioning. Seriously if you cant tell it's a sensitive issue you really are missing some cop on

Sensitive or otherwise, he brought it up. He made a specific claim about the RSA death statistics, so I'm simply asking for clarity as to his source of this claim. If it's too sensitive to answer, then he shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

But actually, you're right - I probably should drop the line of questioning, though perhaps for different reasons to you. Here's my reasons:
1) He has no source for that claim, but he's just a bit too embarrassed to admit this. That's fine, I've asked 2 or 3 times and he's failed to answer, so I don't really want to waste any more of my time on a wild goose chase.
2) It is immaterial. Even if he's right, and even if there are a tiny number of exceptional cases included in the RSA road death statistics, it doesn't change the central issue - that motorists are killing 3 or 4 people each week on our roads.

ballyharpat · 27-07-2018 10:28AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Not the how and why. Pointless argument. Still no mention of the cause. The irritating thing is the lies militant cyclists post. Dont make it personal!

I will go on from now saying that cyclists are colliding with cars and cyclists should be illegal. They are throwing themselves under vehicles.

Cyclists need to ask themselves HOW and WHY people have been killed.

We are talking about pedestrians and motorists being killed as well as cyclists. So you are saying that 180+- people throw themselves under cars every year in Ireland- good job that, great argument.
You’re actually beyond irritating now ðŸ˜³

Martin567 · 27-07-2018 10:52AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Indeed, you could go on saying that, but it would be a lie, with no evidence to support it. Unlike my statement about motorists killing 3 or 4 people each week. Here's just one example of the kind of analysis that RSA does on the road death statistics that confirm my statement:

http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/News-2016/Excessive-Speed-a-Factor-in-322-Road-Deaths-Between-2008-and-2012/

How does that link confirm your statement? You concluded that every death on the road over a five year period was the fault of motorists. Your link says that excessive speed was a factor in one third of the incidents. So it wasn't a factor at all in two thirds of cases.

Please stop attributing every death on the road as being a case of motorists killing people. Unless you know for a fact that every single such death was the fault of a motorist, then you can't honestly continue to make such a claim.

Unfortunately, from reading some of your posts, I don't expect you to change your approach. It is clear that fairness and open-mindedness are not important values for you.

07Lapierre · 27-07-2018 10:58AM

Martin567 wrote: »

How does that link confirm your statement? You concluded that every death on the road over a five year period was the fault of motorists. Your link says that excessive speed was a factor in one third of the incidents. So it wasn't a factor at all in two thirds of cases.

Please stop attributing every death on the road as being a case of motorists killing people. Unless you know for a fact that every single such death was the fault of a motorist, then you can't honestly continue to make such a claim.

Unfortunately, from reading some of your posts, I don't expect you to change your approach. It is clear that fairness and open-mindedness are not important values for you.

Can we at least agree that at least 109 fatalities were not caused by cyclists or pedestrians?

"• 109 of the drivers were killed in single vehicle collisions"

meeeeh · 27-07-2018 11:02AM

So we went from cars kill everybody to bicycles kill everybody. It's like to groups of different religious zealots trying to persuade each other that the other side will rot in hell.

Martin567 · 27-07-2018 11:08AM

07Lapierre wrote: »

Can we at least agree that at least 109 fatalities were not caused by cyclists or pedestrians?

"• 109 of the drivers were killed in single vehicle collisions"

Of course we can agree on that.

I also have no doubt that bad driver behaviour is by far the biggest contributory factor to these deaths.

Could you agree that bad cycling behaviour is likely to be a factor in at least some of the deaths (probably of the cyclists themselves)? Please don't accuse me of victim blaming or ask me for a "source". Certain posters are quite happy to attribute all of the blame to motorists for every death without any "source" to support them.

PlaneSpeeking · 27-07-2018 11:16AM

meeeeh wrote: »

So we went from cars kill everybody to bicycles kill everybody. It's like to groups of different religious zealots trying to persuade each other that the other side will rot in hell.

The difference being is I know people can and have been killed by reckless driving, I just don't accept every incident involving a car was some sort of vendetta by the driver, maliciously moving down bikes at will.

However, cyclists can be a danger and some people do not want to accept that, ever.

I suggested finding a middle ground and the response was the usual guff about 4,000 deaths.

meeeeh · 27-07-2018 11:22AM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

The difference being is I know people can and have been killed by reckless driving, I just don't accept every incident involving a car was some sort of vendetta by the driver, maliciously moving down bikes at will.

However, cyclists can be a danger and some people do not want to accept that, ever.

I suggested finding a middle ground and the response was the usual guff about 4,000 deaths.

Everybody, pedestrians, drivers and cyclists can be a danger to others and to themselves. What I don't actually like is the implication that as long as you endanger only yourself it is ok. If things go wrong there will be someone who will have to feed you through the tube or bring up family on their own.

But anyway this thread long ago stopped being entertaining even to troll.

07Lapierre · 27-07-2018 11:23AM

Martin567 wrote: »

Of course we can agree on that.

I also have no doubt that bad driver behaviour is by far the biggest contributory factor to these deaths.

Could you agree that bad cycling behaviour is likely to be a factor in at least some of the deaths (probably of the cyclists themselves)? Please don't accuse me of victim blaming or ask me for a "source". Certain posters are quite happy to attribute all of the blame to motorists for every death without any "source" to support them.

Last year there were 17 cyclists killed on irish roads.

from Memory, I think one was a pedestrian crossing the road (while pushing a bike). At least two cyclists were killed due to collisions with HGV's. I will agree that inexperienced cyclists are putting themselves in dangerous positions on the roads. e.g. passing HGV's on the left. The remainder were hit by vehicles from behind.

I'm an experienced cyclist, and from my experience of cycling on irish roads, my biggest fear is speeding vehicles approaching me from behind with no regard for my safety. I could be hit by a car from behind because the driver didn't see me because the sun was in his eyes. I could be hit from behind because the driver "Forgot" that the trailer he was towing was wider than his car! There are lots and lots of other reasons why collisions happen, but most are out of the control of the cyclist.

Yes, I know cyclists break red lights, cycle with no lights at night etc. (only one cyclist was killed in 2017 during the hours of darkness) but even when cyclist are in the wrong, its the speed of the vehicle that they impact with that kills them.

shootermacg · 27-07-2018 11:24AM

many drivers are well able to kill themselves with nobody around to help (or blame).

PlaneSpeeking · 27-07-2018 11:25AM

07Lapierre wrote: »

Last year there were 17 cyclists killed on irish roads.

from Memory, I think one was a pedestrian crossing the road (while pushing a bike)

At least two cyclists were killed due to collisions with HGV's.

I will agree that inexperienced cyclists are putting themselves in dangerous positions on the roads. e.g. passing HGV's on the left. The remainder were hit by vehicles from behind.

I'm an experienced cyclist, and from my experience of cycling on irish roads, my biggest fear is speeding vehicles approaching me from behind with no regard for my safety.

I could be hit by a car from behind because the driver didn't see me because the sun was in his eyes.

I could be hit from behind because the driver "Forgot" that the trailer he was towing was wider than his car!

There are lots and lots of other reasons why collisions happen, but most are out of the control of the cyclist.

Yes, I know cyclists break red lights, cycle with no lights at night etc. (only one cyclist was killed in 2017 during the hours of darkness) but even when cyclist are in the wrong, its the speed of the vehicle that they impact with that kills them.

Could be.... I WAS hit by a law breaking cyclist and was laughed at.

27-07-2018 11:25AM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

You've been thanked by a poster who openly mocked, doubted and generally dismissed a collision with a cyclist who was breaking the law.

I was the injured party and so I am well aware of what I am talking about.

Is this a passive-aggressive thing? If you have a problem with what posts I thank, maybe you'd be better of raising the matter with me than making snide aside comments to others? It's also a good measure of the strength of my argument that the only thing you can find to challenge is what posts from others I thanked.

I'm not too sure that got much mocking/doubting/dismissing from me, but regardless, I'll take the opportunity to clarify my position.

Do cyclists injure or harm pedestrians on the roads or paths? Yes, absolutely - no mocking/doubting/denial here.

Does this happen with the seriousness and frequency that one might imagine from the posts here, especially relative to the injuries and harm caused by motorists - absolutely not. If it did happen with the seriousness and frequency indicated by posters here, it would be a major category in hospital records, insurance costs, garda records, and it's not. Unlike death and serious injuries caused by motorists.

07Lapierre · 27-07-2018 11:26AM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Could be.... I WAS hit by a law breaking cyclist and was laughed at.

Yes but were you Killed?

27-07-2018 11:29AM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

The difference being is I know people can and have been killed by reckless driving, I just don't accept every incident involving a car was some sort of vendetta by the driver, maliciously moving down bikes at will.

However, cyclists can be a danger and some people do not want to accept that, ever.

I suggested finding a middle ground and the response was the usual guff about 4,000 deaths.

Perhaps the middle ground might involve listening to what others are saying, rather than exaggerating their positions so that you have something to complaint about. No-one here mentioned 'vendetta by the driver'. No-one here mentioned 'maliciously mowing down bikes at will'.

I just mentioned that motorists are killing 3 or 4 people each week on the roads, as is confirmed by every piece of road safety statistic that has been collected for the last 50 years. Why is it so difficult to accept this reality?

meeeeh · 27-07-2018 11:37AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I just mentioned that motorists are killing 3 or 4 people each week on the roads, as is confirmed by every piece of road safety statistic that has been collected for the last 50 years. Why is it so difficult to accept this reality?

And? People do accept the reality otherwise they would stop driving or using roads. You are still using the roads so you obviously think it's an acceptable trade of.

27-07-2018 11:51AM

Martin567 wrote: »

Of course we can agree on that.

I also have no doubt that bad driver behaviour is by far the biggest contributory factor to these deaths.

Could you agree that bad cycling behaviour is likely to be a factor in at least some of the deaths (probably of the cyclists themselves)? Please don't accuse me of victim blaming or ask me for a "source". Certain posters are quite happy to attribute all of the blame to motorists for every death without any "source" to support them.

On the assumption that this is aimed largely at me, I'm happy to confirm that I agree that bad cycling behaviour has definitely been a factor in some of the deaths of cyclists - a tiny handful of cases. The ones that I recall would be the drunk cyclist on the M1, the cyclist who came off his bike into a ditch during a fast, steep descent in Wicklow, and the cyclist in Cork who cycled into the back of the car who's driver stopped to ask the cyclist for directions.

There's possibly a few more cases over the past five years that I haven't heard of or don't recall - let's be generous and say there might be ten such cases over the past five years. In that time (2013 - 2017), there were about 890 deaths on the road, so we're talking about somewhere around 1% of the overall deaths.

That leaves 99% or about 880 people killed by motorists on the roads over that time. Does that make it easier to focus on the real cause of danger on the roads?

27-07-2018 11:52AM

meeeeh wrote: »

And? People do accept the reality otherwise they would stop driving or using roads. You are still using the roads so you obviously think it's an acceptable trade of.

I think it is an entirely unacceptable trade off, but short of becoming a Howard Hughes recluse that never leaves the house, I don't have much choice - and neither does anyone else.

Do you plan to wait until you lose a family member before you work out that this is entirely unacceptable?

07Lapierre · 27-07-2018 12:05PM

meeeeh wrote: »

And? People do accept the reality otherwise they would stop driving or using roads. You are still using the roads so you obviously think it's an acceptable trade of.

Yes, I accept that I could be killed while cycling....but it won't be because Im a reckless cyclist!

meeeeh · 27-07-2018 12:33PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I think it is an entirely unacceptable trade off, but short of becoming a Howard Hughes recluse that never leaves the house, I don't have much choice - and neither does anyone else.

Do you plan to wait until you lose a family member before you work out that this is entirely unacceptable?

Actually people dying on roads suits you because you constantly use the statistics to bang on about the drivers. At the same time you don't offer any solutions and oppose improvements in road infrastructure or dismiss people using lights as minor thing. I was hit by a driver who was going too fast when crossing the road as a child, I am well aware of the dangers. I also know did not look properly when crossing the road and ran in the path of a car. There are two sides to the issue, speeding has to be prosecuted but kids also have to be taught how to cross the road and facilities improved. The road that happened on 30 years ago is amended, road crossing is better and speed limit is lower, fines are high and people obey the speed limits. Those are things that improve situation, banging on how cars kill people as an excuse to cycle in the dark without lights doesn't.

So spare me the family member dying because you really don't care about that.

Resverathrole · 27-07-2018 12:55PM

shakeitoff wrote: »

Every weekend, they swarm around, what is it about cycling that brings them in? Why aren't they playing weekend footie or mountain biking?

The term lad usually only applies to fellas under 30. So therefore, there is no such thing as middle aged lads.

27-07-2018 01:25PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually people dying on roads suits you because you constantly use the statistics to bang on about the drivers. At the same time you don't offer any solutions and oppose improvements in road infrastructure or dismiss people using lights as minor thing. I was hit by a driver who was going too fast when crossing the road as a child, I am well aware of the dangers. I also know did not look properly when crossing the road and ran in the path of a car. There are two sides to the issue, speeding has to be prosecuted but kids also have to be taught how to cross the road and facilities improved. The road that happened on 30 years ago is amended, road crossing is better and speed limit is lower, fines are high and people obey the speed limits. Those are things that improve situation, banging on how cars kill people as an excuse to cycle in the dark without lights doesn't.

So spare me the family member dying because you really don't care about that.

How many road deaths involved cycling in the dark without lights?
How many road deaths involved kids crossing the road incorrectly?

I've offered plenty of solutions, but you clearly haven't been listening or you find the real solutions to be unpalatable. The first step in any solution is to identify the true causes. This has been largely done by the RSA over recent years: speeding, drink driving, mobile phone use, driving while tired and more.

The first part of the solution would involve those drivers who break the speed limit every day on every journey to actually slow down. These of course are generally the same drivers who go on and on ad nauseum about dangerous cyclists. I'm not quite sure whether this is a cynical diversion tactic or just some kind of intense groupthink that has evolved. Either way, it is costing lives on our roads every week.

There are of course regulatory, enforcement and design aspects to the solution too. We need some serious enforcement from the Gardai and a total culture change of their attitudes towards cycling, which are about three decades behind what you're seeing from many UK police forces.

But there is an immediate part of the solution available to all of us, today. Now.

That is to ensure that dangerous and illegal driving is not socially acceptable - speeding, mobile phone abuse happens all around us. We need to make this stop.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 27-07-2018 01:34PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The first part of the solution would involve those drivers who break the speed limit every day on every journey to actually slow down. These of course are generally the same drivers who go on and on ad nauseum about dangerous cyclists. I'm not quite sure whether this is a cynical diversion tactic or just some kind of intense groupthink that has evolved.

Do you have proof of that? It's in the RSA stats is it?

What's the obsession middle aged lads have with cycling?

Comments