Jordan Peterson interview on C4

kunst nugget · 24-07-2018 04:47PM

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 24-07-2018 04:52PM

We must get the boys to suppress their nature.

They must be rewired by any means necessary.

Brian? · 24-07-2018 04:52PM

Rennaws wrote: »

Any self respecting male who uses the term “toxic masculinity” must have had his balls chopped off. It has no meaning other then a term by which sjw types can beat up us males who don’t conform to this PC bollix.

I don’t see sjw as insulting as you do. I’m betting there are plenty of angst ridden teenagers and UCD students from D4 and it’s surround who’d be only too delighted to be branded with the sjw title..

I use toxic masculinity. I explained exactly what I meant, it's not actually about beating up men who don't conform. It's about recognising a problem that exists in order to help men.

My balls are still in place though. A fine hefty pair they are too. PM for pics.

Brian? · 24-07-2018 04:53PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

We must get the boys to suppress their nature.

They must be rewired by any means necessary.

Explain how learning to express your emotions is suppressing your nature?

Brian? · 24-07-2018 04:57PM

kubjones wrote: »

I'm arguing to the existence of both.

The language itself is implying that there is something "toxic" about aspects of masculinity, the inference of which isn't helpful.

SJW is completely pejorative though and I agree its definition is very broad, mostly insulting.

I agree that some masculine cultural norms are damaging but they need to be addressed individually. Appreciating a man's calm demeanor doesn't deserve to be considered "toxic."

A person that is open with their emotions doesn't deserve to be called an SJW. Both of these terms deserve to exist, but the extent to which they are used needs to be considered, like all language.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I would never use Toxic masculinity as a pejorative. It's a description of something not someone. It's not a label applied to a person or a group of people.

SJW is used to lump people together and devalue their opinions.

Lux23 · 24-07-2018 05:02PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

It's the term people have a problem with, not what it actually describes. I haven't met every man in the world, but I have witnessed how certain aspects of the male psyche have had a catastrophic effect on the mental health of my partner, brother and father. All three confessed how they didn't know how to talk about what they were going through, is this not a common theme? But again the phrase is like a red rag to a bull and some can't be bothered to try and understand it.

blinding · 24-07-2018 05:11PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6Ku_3wBsNg

Great chat here with Jordan Peterson and Camile Paglia .

DEFTLEFTHAND · 24-07-2018 05:15PM

Brian? wrote: »

Explain how learning to express your emotions is suppressing your nature?

I'm talking about the boisterous behaviour we see out of young males in groups.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 24-07-2018 05:22PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

Absolutely agree

7aubzxk43m2sni · 24-07-2018 05:25PM

Lux23 wrote: »

It's the term people have a problem with, not what it actually describes. I haven't met every man in the world, but I have witnessed how certain aspects of the male psyche have had a catastrophic effect on the mental health of my partner, brother and father. All three confessed how they didn't know how to talk about what they were going through, is this not a common theme? But again the phrase is like a red rag to a bull and some can't be bothered to try and understand it.

Sure, there's a common theme of men being poor at expressing emotion.

I don't think it's about being bothered to understand the term, it's just that "toxic masculinity" implies something inherent to all men that is very negative.

What's wrong with saying "men tend to be poor at dealing with / expressing their emotions" ?

RandomName2 · 24-07-2018 05:47PM

Brian? wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree. I would never use Toxic masculinity as a pejorative. It's a description of something not someone. It's not a label applied to a person or a group of people.

SJW is used to lump people together and devalue their opinions.

Well then you mustn't have had your eyes or ears open the last two years, particularly with respect to american culture, with men in general lumped into toxic masculinity, rather than it describing a particular set of psychological features.

Granted that there's use for the term. There'd be use for the term toxic femininity (in terms of peer pressure of physical appearance, etc.) but that term isn't used, because in gender studies the narrative is typically 'men are the problem'. The 'lingerie floor' type of feminism.

The same problems associated with the term SJW applies in relation to 'toxic masculinity'. It's a useful term, but generally used in a perjorative sense. One of the differences is that you could simply describe the psychological aspects you are referring to when talking about the non-perjorative 'toxic-masculinity' whereas SJW is a little more problematic.

The Bishop Basher · 24-07-2018 05:59PM

Brian? wrote: »

I use toxic masculinity. I explained exactly what I meant, it's not actually about beating up men who don't conform. It's about recognising a problem that exists in order to help men.

Ok. Even if I get your point. I still believe using that term is insulting to all men. If using the term makes half your audience switch off then surely that’s good enough reason to avoid it.

Brian? wrote: »

My balls are still in place though. A fine hefty pair they are too. PM for pics.

I'm honestly humbled by your kind offer but will decline on this occasion. It did make me laugh though.. :pac:

Brian? · 24-07-2018 06:15PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well then you mustn't have had your eyes or ears open the last two years, particularly with respect to american culture, with men in general lumped into toxic masculinity, rather than it describing a particular set of psychological features.

I must have, because I've never heard this happen. I don't pay much attention to American culture anymore.

Granted that there's use for the term. There'd be use for the term toxic femininity (in terms of peer pressure of physical appearance, etc.) but that term isn't used, because in gender studies the narrative is typically 'men are the problem'. The 'lingerie floor' type of feminism.

The same problems associated with the term SJW applies in relation to 'toxic masculinity'. It's a useful term, but generally used in a perjorative sense. One of the differences is that you could simply describe the psychological aspects you are referring to when talking about the non-perjorative 'toxic-masculinity' whereas SJW is a little more problematic.

I dunno anymore.

Brian? · 24-07-2018 08:30PM

Rennaws wrote: »

Ok. Even if I get your point. I still believe using that term is insulting to all men. If using the term makes half your audience switch off then surely that’s good enough reason to avoid it.

So you feel I should moderate my language in case it turns people off? I hardly think that’s fair.

I'm honestly humbled by your kind offer but will decline on this occasion. It did make me laugh though.. :pac:

It’s not the first time my balls have humbled someone, not to brag.

Brian? · 24-07-2018 08:32PM

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

Sure, there's a common theme of men being poor at expressing emotion.

I don't think it's about being bothered to understand the term, it's just that "toxic masculinity" implies something inherent to all men that is very negative.

What's wrong with saying "men tend to be poor at dealing with / expressing their emotions" ?

What’s wrong with saying toxic masculinity now that we’re all friends?

DickSwiveller Returns · 24-07-2018 08:51PM

Brian? wrote: »

What’s wrong with saying toxic masculinity now that we’re all friends?

I was out in Dublin last weekend and a group of women attending a hen party where shouting and roaring, grabbing men's arses and being generally anti social. It's not the first time I've seen hen parties acting in this way. Is this an example of toxic femininity?

Giraffe Box · 24-07-2018 08:55PM

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I was out in Dublin last weekend and a group of women attending a hen party where shouting and roaring, grabbing men's arses and being generally anti social. It's not the first time I've seen hen parties acting in this way. Is this an example of toxic femininity?

No. That's intoxicated femininity!

Ulysses Gaze · 24-07-2018 08:58PM

Giraffe Box wrote: »

No. That's intoxicated femininity!

Brian? · 24-07-2018 09:37PM

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I was out in Dublin last weekend and a group of women attending a hen party where shouting and roaring, grabbing men's arses and being generally anti social. It's not the first time I've seen hen parties acting in this way. Is this an example of toxic femininity?

No. That's acting the gimp

cloudatlas · 25-07-2018 12:36AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

Reminds me of the objection of Iona Institute Etal at being called 'homophobes' the need to control terminology, language and to always reduce offences to something softer and more benign so that a state of comfort and denial can be reached.

kunst nugget · 25-07-2018 01:04AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Reminds me of the objection of Iona Institute Etal at being called 'homophobes' the need to control terminology, language and to always reduce offences to something softer and more benign so that a state of comfort and denial can be reached.

I express a dislike for a phrase and it somehow puts me on a par with the Iona institute? Jog on, would you.

Christ, the irony of you talking about other people needing to control terminology and language...

The Bishop Basher · 25-07-2018 04:11AM

Brian? wrote: »

So you feel I should moderate my language in case it turns people off? I hardly think that’s fair.

Well let’s start with something my mother taught me from a very youug age.. life’s not fair, get used to it..

I don’t think you should do anything you don’t want to do. I choose my words carefully.. go back and re-read them if you didn’t understand them the first time. I offered a suggestion which, as always, you are free to ignore.

Brian? wrote: »

It’s not the first time my balls have humbled someone, not to brag.

Your balls didnt’t humble me. Your offer did. Why do I have to keep explaining my words when all you have to do is read them as they’re written.

I write in clear English. I don’t embed hidden meanings in what I write. You can take it literally and at face value. Anything else you attach to those words as you seem so fond of doing, is entirely of your own imagination.

I’m happy to debate but not when you keep twisting my words to suit your argument.

It’s tiring and not worth the effort tbh

7aubzxk43m2sni · 25-07-2018 08:09AM

Brian? wrote: »

No. That's acting the gimp

But a bunch of lads acting the gimp on a stag is toxic masculinity? How does that work?

JMNolan · 25-07-2018 08:12AM

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

But a bunch of lads acting the gimp on a stag is toxic masculinity? How does that work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_are_wonderful_effect

Strangely enough, people that subscribe to this (like Brian) can't view women as individuals.

Brian? · 25-07-2018 09:05AM

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

But a bunch of lads acting the gimp on a stag is toxic masculinity? How does that work?

Did I say it was? You’ve confused me with another poster.

Brian? · 25-07-2018 09:06AM

JMNolan wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_are_wonderful_effect

Strangely enough, people that subscribe to this (like Brian) can't view women as individuals.

Excuse me. I don’t subscribe to this. Why do you think I do?

Brian? · 25-07-2018 09:09AM

Rennaws wrote: »

Well let’s start with something my mother taught me from a very youug age.. life’s not fair, get used to it..

I don’t think you should do anything you don’t want to do. I choose my words carefully.. go back and re-read them if you didn’t understand them the first time. I offered a suggestion which, as always, you are free to ignore.

I’m ignoring it then. Thanks anyway.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 25-07-2018 09:10AM

Brian? wrote: »

Excuse me. I don’t subscribe to this. Why do you think I do?

Are you sure? Maybe it's unconscious bias?

Brian? · 25-07-2018 09:13AM

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

Are you sure? Maybe it's unconscious bias?

What’s your agenda here? I thought we were having a reasonable debate. What’s the point of this petty BS?

I explaining one aspect of what I believed toxic masculinity to be. Emotional repression. Are you finished debating this?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 25-07-2018 09:34AM

Brian? wrote: »

What’s your agenda here? I thought we were having a reasonable debate. What’s the point of this petty BS?

I explaining one aspect of what I believed toxic masculinity to be. Emotional repression. Are you finished debating this?

You can't bring your balls into a discussion and claim that you're trying to have reasonable debate.

I've responded to the idea that emotional repression is an element of "toxic masculinity"

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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