What's the obsession middle aged lads have with cycling?

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Quick question, despite my intentions not to go down this particular warren - is there ever a scenario where, given incontrovertible proof of wrongdoing - where you would accept a cyclist caused bodily harm, life changing injuries and/or death ?

Or would you merely shrug and point out that in your opinion cars are worse ? You know - actually answer the point without deflection.

The whole basis of my argument is factual evidence. Public policy should not be based on anecdotal stories, regardless of how loudly they are shouted or how often they are repeated. They should be based on facts and evidence.
So of course, the answer is Yes - there are cases where cyclists caused bodily harm, life changing injuries or death. In Ireland, the last case of a cyclist causing death was more than 15 years ago. In the UK, cyclists cause 1 or 2 deaths each year, compared to 1700-ish deaths by motorists. Those facts will help you understand the relative risks involved.
I haven't seen anyone here defending dangerous behaviour by cyclists, which does indeed happen. What I have seen is people challenging the obsessive focus on 'dangerous cyclists' that ignores the real danger on the roads - the motorists who kill three or four people each week and maim many more. Indeed, most of those obsessing about dangerous cyclists are indeed dangerous motorists.
I'd challenge any of those who are whinging about cyclists who break red lights to tell me that they've never broken a speed limit on the road. I'd challenge any of those who are whinging about all the ninja cyclists that they see on the road (see what I did there) to tell me that they've never driven with a broken tail light or brake light for days or weeks. I'd challenge all of those who are whinging about cyclists two abreast taking up the whole road to tell me that they've never driven with an empty armchair beside them and an empty coach beside them.
This isn't a safety debate. This is a personal prejudice, possibly one of few remaining socially acceptable personal prejudices wrapped up on flimsy layer of safety concern.

The Kop wrote: »

He's definitely on the wind up.

And yet, you've still not found anything that you can actually argue or disagree with. If your best option is personal attack, it's a fair bet that I'm on the right track.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I'm not a motorist and so I can't comment on that, only as a long suffering pedestrian but of course there are motorists who shouldn't be on the road - but there is a huge chance their number plate is legit and they can be apprehended. With the cyclist who caused my injury (and the one I witnessed) once they had left there was zero consequence, nothing - what description could I give ? Bike, red - man, white, possibly 30s ? Even if I was sure of those, no way can anyone be identified.

It just annoys the life out of me that my safety is somehow made a punchline by some posters on here.

You're not a cyclist either, but that hasn't stopped you commenting quite a lot about cycling - so why the reticence to face up to the reality of dangerous driving. The RSA picked up 82% of motorists breaking speed lmiits in one of their recent speed surveys, so please explain to me again how this amazing registration system stops drivers from breaking the law?
Which do you hear more Garda appeals for - dangerous drivers or dangerous cyclists?

P_1 wrote: »

I got it loud and clear. However it is failing. Ross views us as cranks and the vitriol from drivers is getting worse. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity? Getting wound up causes more harm than good. If you want to get the blood pumping hop on the bike and head for Kippure.

I'm not wound up at all. I'm not insulting people. I'm not telling people what they should be wearing.
I am directly and patiently challenging the myths around dangerous cycling with facts and evidence.
Have you noticed what gets results in Ireland today? Did the water protestors have the right 'tone'? Did the repeal protestors have the right 'tone'? I'm done with tugging my forelock to the speeding/texting motorists asking them nicely to please not kill me today.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Agreed. More harm than good being done as I said.

The more good anything - cyclists, or whatever group - continue to vehemently defend the actions of EVERY member of their community - the more reasonable people will start to tar everyone with the same brush.

Start by accepting that when someone reports an incident that they are doing so to highlight an issue. It's not personal.

There are some lousy, dangerous, cyclists out there who care nothing for anyone else. They are a minority. But they exist. Defending them blindly helps no one, least of all the cycling community.

I really don't see why this is not apparent ?

Where specifically did any cyclist here defend the actions of dangerous cyclists?

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Hmm. Wearing a uniform, travelling in formation, and getting angry at perceived opponents? Can’t think of another parallel to that, now [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Admin\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gif[/IMG]

Ah here, don't be having a go at rugby players now. Is nothing sacred?

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Not so, the one who hit me had something on his face like Bane from one of the Batman films and many wear face covers.

No, many don't wear face covers - just another of your over-dramatic exaggerations that expose your personal bias. There is probably a tiny, valid point somewhere at the very bottom of your ranting, but you dress it up in so many exaggerations that it's hard to see the wood from the trees.

Rennaws wrote: »

I agree with you on the first 2 points. I even agree with your third point to some extent. I think the problem lies in the middle somewhere..

I see cyclists cycle 2 abreast and take the road so often now in spots where it's just not necessary and if they only had the courtesy to cycle in single file for that stretch it would mean cars could get passed while leaving 1.5 meters and barely touching the white line. But the groups have grown so large and are so often full of amateurs who don't know what they're doing.

You can tell the really experienced riders.. They move at pace and never obstruct you unecassarily in my experience.

Most good drivers understand why single file is more dangerous for everybody - because you don't have enough visibility to commit to safely overtaking a large group in single file. Anne Doyle explains it well:

Rennaws wrote: »

This is a critical point in this debate..

We have no idea how many injuries are caused every year by cyclists breaking the law

Why, probably because we don't all run off to the nearest Garda station like they do because what's the point ? Unless you live in a country village with a population of 10, it's extremely unlikely they'll catch the culprit anyway.

Yeah, we have a very good idea of how many injuries are caused every year by cyclists, whether they are breaking the law or not - very few.
Serious injuries are recorded in hospitals or by GPs. If an injury is not recorded in hospital or by a GP, it's not a serious injury. Studies of hospital records show that in the overall scheme of things, injuries caused by cyclists are insignificant - a drop in the ocean.

Rennaws wrote: »

We also don't go around with cameras on our heads. That's a reserve of cyclists

If you haven't heard about 'dashcams', you should check out this thread:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057839970
You'll find thousands of videos recorded by motorists on Irish roads, so no, cameras are not the preserve of cyclists.

Rennaws wrote: »

Some groups enjoy doing it while out for a spin, yes..

How do you know that they enjoy doing it?

Rennaws wrote: »

But how do you know ? Who are you to tell me my experience is wrong..

...
You don't have to believe me but you have no way of proving me wrong either so hey ho..

If you are in any doubt about the prevalence of bad driving on Irish roads, just start watching a few of these videos;


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057839970


There's thousands of them there, showing dickish and dangerous driving on Irish roads - the kind of stuff we all see every day of the week. But some of us choose to not notice the two or three drivers that push through the red light after it has changed, or the drivers with the phone in their hand or at their ear (we're in 2nd worst position on the European league table of mobile phone abuse) or the drivers breaking the speed limit.


That's the great thing about these debates. We don't need to prove your personal experience wrong. We just look at the independently collected data and evidence and we can see exactly where the danger on Irish roads comes from.