Do we need effective rent controls in Dublin?

24-07-2018 01:00AM

You said they have never worked, now who's being disingenuous eh?

WhiteMemento9 · 24-07-2018 01:03AM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Tax the bejesus out of the vulture funds buying property. The likes of Reis, Kennedy Wilson etc.

Banking debts onto the people leading to high taxation rates, let the vultures buy everything, corporations paying next to no tax, homeless crisis, rising house prices, no proper attempts to address the rent crisis. Even those earning good money in Dublin can barely see a way to save, start a family, buy a house etc. It is a steaming pile of ****. Seems like the perfect storm to exploit large amounts of people mainly for the benefit of the few. A common theme these days.

the_syco · 24-07-2018 02:21AM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

"Fuck the poor"

So, do you support actual social housing, or the current thing of thinking private LL's will do it? Because the LL's aren't doing it, and rather than protest the government on not doing it, people prefer to ask for rent caps, rent control, etc, that actually is causing the rental market to shrink.

riffmongous wrote: »

I can't even imagine how you could do that, the city has been like this since the 20s. The only thing I could guess is that it wouldn't be number one in the world anymore, so why on earth would you

My point is that it's great as it has great social housing. And how Dublin is bad as it has nearly no social housing, anymore.

beauf · 24-07-2018 02:31AM

riffmongous wrote: »

You said they have never worked, now who's being disingenuous eh?

https://www.thelocal.at/20140905/thousands-of-austrian-properties-empty
https://www.thelocal.at/20160216/huge-gaps-in-vienna-housing-market

Vienna,

Annually, Vienna spends about 600 million euros ($682 million) on social housing. In comparison, Germany — with a population over 45 times Vienna's — spends about 400 million euros nationwide.

Ireland

Currently, the Government spends €2bn per year on social housing. Just over half of that money - 55% - goes to build social housing units, buy houses, or on signing very long-term leases for houses to be allocated to local authority tenants......The remaining money - about €900m per year - is used to subsidise private sector rents paid to landlords for local authority clients, as well as homeless services, traveller accommodation and other supports.

But how many do they actually build?
http://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-budget-3639091-Oct2017/

But yeah its all about rent controls :rolleyes:

At this point it doesn't matter. The market here is shifting. It encourages older properties to leave the market, and new builds/rents to enter and raise the rent. We've even had to legislate for it with the Tyrrelstown Amendment.

beauf · 24-07-2018 02:34AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

....but is there a case to be made for rent controls? ...

We already have them.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html

hatrickpatrick · 24-07-2018 04:31AM

the_syco wrote: »

So, do you support actual social housing, or the current thing of thinking private LL's will do it? Because the LL's aren't doing it, and rather than protest the government on not doing it, people prefer to ask for rent caps, rent control, etc, that actually is causing the rental market to shrink.

It should be both. Yes, the state needs to build vastly more social housing than it is. But equally, nobody - social tenant or not - should be paying €1,000 per month for a one bed apartment, simple as that.

JustAThought · 24-07-2018 06:30AM

Half the city it seems is paying thirty quid a week for their 2 bed 'council' appartments of 3 bed 'council' houses.
On the back of the other half who are paying far more than that in mortgages while underwriting the lifestyle of the others through their 42% taxes.

This country gave out sixty thousand NEW LEGAL pps numbers in the past 5 years to legal people coming to work here. Where do the visa granters think they will all live? That figure dosnt include their families who legally accompanied them and will also need somewhere to live.

We are also the social welfare mecca for the planet with almost no border control, free house and handouts for life if you can get a flight to or a toe on the island -and the liberal left who mostly earn a living from them want these unknown aliens and undocumented to be allowed roam wherever they want, claim dole syle payments and be let live ( ie rent via state handouts) wherever they choose rather than in controled secure alien detention centres until their stories and backgrounds can be checked. Like they do in Australia, France, and other EU countries where common sense prevails.

Again. Where do the government clerks think all these people will physically fit. What houses do they think they will live in. And when the government is writing their cheques who do you think will be pushed off the rental market. I dont know many students from working families paying mortgages who can now afford to rent in Dublin .

Wanderer78 · 24-07-2018 06:34AM

JustAThought wrote:

We are also the social welfare mecca for the planet with almost no border control, free house and handouts for life if you can get a flight to or a toe on the island -and theliberal lefy want yhese unknown aliens and undocumwnted to be allowed roam wherever they want, claim dole tyle payments and be let live ( ie rent via state handouts) whereverthey choose rather than in controled secure alien detention centres until their stories and backgrounds can be checked.

Welfare 'mecca'!

beauf · 24-07-2018 08:58AM

It's a similar story across Europe.
Housing shortage from boom and bust.
Then a flood of immigration.

Wanderer78 · 24-07-2018 08:59AM

beauf wrote: »

It's a similar story across Europe.
Housing shortage from boom and bust.
Then a flood of immigration.

maybe its more of an economic issue than other issues?

beauf · 24-07-2018 09:10AM

It's all the issues combined imo

Which is why focusing on one issue on its own like rent control, which just compounds the problem. Is a bit short sighted.

Then again people don't look past the tabloid titles and look at the underlying issues.

LirW · 24-07-2018 09:42AM

I hope the guy who's going on about "Visa granters" is aware that the majority of the 60k are Europeans that are legally entitled to work and live here without any Visa. And you need a PPS number pretty much from the get-go first and foremost for tax reasons when you work. Isn't the majority of people in council accommodation Irish anyway?

Lux23 · 24-07-2018 09:44AM

We already have them, they just need to be enforced.

beauf · 24-07-2018 10:20AM

The point is we have nowhere for them to live. Same issue across Europe.

ohnonotgmail · 24-07-2018 11:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Great, so we can expect private landlords to build their own electricity, water, sewage, telecommunications, road and footpath infrastructure and stop depending upon the state for this?
At least there'd be integrity to their "the state has no right to interfere in private property" mantra then. At the moment it's just risible hypocrisy.

Isnt that what the tax that landlords pay is for?

WhiteMemento9 · 24-07-2018 11:18AM

beauf wrote: »

The point is we have nowhere for them to live. Same issue across Europe.

That isn't a problem with immigration. That is a problem with Ireland. Fix the problems in Ireland and don't blame immigration.

24-07-2018 11:34AM

Myra Late Cap wrote: »

Bull of the highest order.

LLs pay tax (and very very large amounts of it) to pay for these services you can’t go around making statements like “we can force rules on them because they use services (that they are already paying for in tax)”

Every business uses these services but I don’t see you calling for supermarkets to have be forced to charge a certain price for a loaf of bread, or a car dealer being told “oh no you can’t charge that for a car the price is fixed at much lower” I could go on all night with examples. Renting out property is a private business which people get into in order to make profit and they should be allowed to maximize the profit their business makes by selling their product at a price they see for the same as petty much every other business in the country.

Isn't that the load of delusional nonsense, though? Landlords don't pay near enough to pay for the billions it costs to put all the electric, water, sewage, telecommunications, roads, footpaths, waste incineration and everything else in place - infrastructure which landlords could not make money without. The state would survive without the taxes landlords pay; landlords wouldn't survive without the services which the state provides.

Next time rightwing landlords (or, indeed, rightwing anything) delusionally go on as if they're an island of self-made independence, start noticing all the things paid for by other taxpayers helping you via the state. The state which funds the basic services for your business is fully entitled to insist upon both a minimum health and safety standard in accommodation - "interference" - just as it insists upon various standards from every single private business in the state. And like most other developed economies people abusing a dominant position via undermining the greater good of society are regularly restricted and undermined by state policy - we have a whole section of law called Competition Law - so rent controls are simply another variant of this "interference" by the state in businesses which could never function without the state's "interference" in the first place. State interference = good, when they're giving us something; bad, when they're expecting something from us.

24-07-2018 11:43AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Isnt that what the tax that landlords pay is for?

Yes, if they are paying billions upon billions in taxes to cover the cost of getting all these things from source into their house. I'd wager they're depending on some form of socialism where other taxpayers in the form of the state are subsidising the cost.

ohnonotgmail · 24-07-2018 11:49AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, if they are paying billions upon billions in taxes to cover the cost of getting all these things from source into their house. I'd wager they're depending on some form of socialism where other taxpayers in the form of the state are subsidising the cost.

why should landlords pay the full cost for a shared service? Do you pay the full cost of all the services that the government provides to you?

beauf · 24-07-2018 12:08PM

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

That isn't a problem with immigration. That is a problem with Ireland. Fix the problems in Ireland and don't blame immigration.

I'm not blaming immigration. Its just a fact. Ireland has population growth due to net immigration of non Irish nationals. They might be EU, Germans, French who knows. It not a cause of the problem, but a compounding factor. A lot of it is due to a booming economy. Considering the Irish emigrated to the four corners of the earth, we should be equally accommodating to others. If thats what you are worried about.

WhiteMemento9 · 24-07-2018 12:15PM

beauf wrote: »

I'm not blaming immigration. Its just a fact. Ireland has population growth due to net immigration of non Irish nationals. They might be EU, Germans, French who knows. It not a cause of the problem, but a compounding factor. A lot of it is due to a booming economy. Considering the Irish emigrated to the four corners of the earth, we should be equally accommodating to others. If thats what you are worried about.

It is not what I am worried about. What I am worried about is that many people like the idea of something simple. So when these conversations happen and people point to immigration it becomes an easy target to blame. We lack housing, all these people are pouring in. Bingo, that is the problem and the pitchforks come out through stupidity and fear.

The roots and causes are far more deep-seeded as you yourself I think pointed out in another post. We need to focus on the causes of the problems and not something which may be currently exposing those problems to the breaking point.

beauf · 24-07-2018 12:19PM

Exactly. The underlying cause of the issue of building and housing shortage. Seems to be the same across Europe.

Some of these new policies are actually making it less attractive to build, or buy to rent.

I think we will just muddle through until it balances itself out over time.
We don't have the cop to doing anything smart or far thinking about it.

Wanderer78 · 24-07-2018 12:21PM

beauf wrote:

I think we will just muddle through until it balances itself out over time. We don't have the cop to doing anything smart or far thinking about it.

Does equilibrium actually exist in such matters?

beauf · 24-07-2018 12:49PM

You want slow predictable growth.

We over fuelled the economy with the credit bubble. Mortgage controls and lending controls are means to control this.

Though the tax breaks to large investment firms and multinationals is not that stable Foundation.

hatrickpatrick · 24-07-2018 01:23PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe its more of an economic issue than other issues?

beauf wrote: »

It's a similar story across Europe.
Housing shortage from boom and bust.
Then a flood of immigration.

Once again: Overpopulation. If there were fewer people needing housing in a given area, the unpopular move towards higher density housing in that area would be unnecessary. That's simple maths.

The global economic system is still essentially a generational pyramid scheme wherein each generation needs to be bigger in order to facilitate never-ending "growth", but nobody ever seems to want to consider or talk about the inevitable long term ramifications of that.

Billy86 · 24-07-2018 01:26PM

Would it not be a good idea for the government to build a lot of new places (regardless of anything else, that needs to happen - be it gov't or private), buy up rental properties and such on sale etc, and then to effectively become the landlords themselves? Rent money goes straight back into the system for a nice revenue stream, prices are easy to keep under control or on a scale for these properties, and as a result those charging crazy prices get squeezed out of the market. And if they do leave, those can always sell those properties to the government to rent out.

There's likely a hundred million potholes I'm not thinking of, but on the surface it just seems like something that could work very well.

BattleCorp · 24-07-2018 02:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn't that the load of delusional nonsense, though? Landlords don't pay near enough to pay for the billions it costs to put all the electric, water, sewage, telecommunications, roads, footpaths, waste incineration and everything else in place - infrastructure which landlords could not make money without. The state would survive without the taxes landlords pay; landlords wouldn't survive without the services which the state provides.

Speaking of delusional. :rolleyes: Landlords pay exactly the same as everybody else that owns their own house. In fact they actually probably pay more seeing as they pay tax on the rental income they earn.

But going by your logic, should people on the dole not be entitled to use the roads, hospitals, doctors, etc. because they don't pay tax?

If every landlord pulled their houses off the market (wouldn't happen but lets imagine), lets see how the State would get on in that case. There'd probably be half a million homeless for a start.

beauf · 24-07-2018 02:33PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Would it not be a good idea for the government to build a lot of new places (regardless of anything else, that needs to happen - be it gov't or private), buy up rental properties and such on sale etc, and then to effectively become the landlords themselves? Rent money goes straight back into the system for a nice revenue stream, prices are easy to keep under control or on a scale for these properties, and as a result those charging crazy prices get squeezed out of the market. And if they do leave, those can always sell those properties to the government to rent out.

There's likely a hundred million potholes I'm not thinking of, but on the surface it just seems like something that could work very well.

Thats basicially what they stopped doing.

http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-social-housing-ireland-then-and-now-3594254-Sep2017/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/seven-councils-built-no-social-housing-from-2013-to-2015-1.2745459

hatrickpatrick · 24-07-2018 04:18PM

beauf wrote: »

Thats basicially what they stopped doing.

http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-social-housing-ireland-then-and-now-3594254-Sep2017/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/seven-councils-built-no-social-housing-from-2013-to-2015-1.2745459

They stopped doing it around the same time that Ireland, the UK and America adopted the post Reagan / Thatcher "third way" neoliberalism of the 1990s and 2000s. And since them, a lot of things have gone to sh!t. Why policy makers can't make the obvious connection is totally beyond me.

Snotty · 24-07-2018 07:19PM

the_syco wrote: »

.

Large scale LL companies, also called REITs, don't care about sob stories. Pay on time, or be evicted. They will get the max amount out of the tenants, and will raise the rent as often as they can.

Yes, it's a business, you pay or if you can't, you get evicted, why can Irish people not grasp that?

The Market will dectate the price, nothing else, if there is low stock and demand, then yes its going to be very expensive, this is the same in most cities, why is Ireland any different? If the prices continue to increase, then developers will see value and in building, or land owners will see value in selling, thus bring more stock to cater to demand.

Governement intervention in the housing market and rental market is always a disaster, it's usually a knee Jerk reaction to appease some group.

Do we need effective rent controls in Dublin?

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