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Do we need effective rent controls in Dublin?

24

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    We need much more supply and an urgent explanation as to why supply isn't returning to the market when there's clearly huge demand not being met.

    There's something wrong with the market.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    "Fuck the poor"

    Why are you blaming the private market for a situation caused by the government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    We need much more supply and an urgent explanation as to why supply isn't returning to the market when there's clearly huge demand not being met.

    There's something wrong with the market.

    The market is acting normally. Supply and demand.

    Supply is being restricted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,728 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    We need much more supply and an urgent explanation as to why supply isn't returning to the market when there's clearly huge demand not being met.

    There's something wrong with 'the market'.

    you can say that again!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    Then it's not rental controls, it's having enough stock in the first place.

    It's both actually, rent controls are in law. Only 7% of all available stock are exempt and even then you can still go to a judge and claim rent is too high.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    We have a tiny room in the OP going for 610 Euro and you're telling me they can't charge reasonable rent. You mean they should be able to charge higher?

    I'm not sure you understand supply and demand.

    It's not about this room. It's about the lack of supply of anything cheaper. In this location. In other locations there are cheaper options.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Caryatnid


    Let's not forget this important fact: over half the homes available for rent in Dublin are on Airbnb. This should simply be not allowed.

    I believe Berlin banned whole homes being rented on Airbnb (rooms only were allowed).

    I know this wouldn't solve everything, but it WOULD make a difference.

    Reference here, please read: https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/one-of-every-two-dublin-rentals-now-only-for-tourists-daft-ie-study-claims-1.3496502%3fmode=amp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    beauf wrote: »
    Why are you blaming the private market for a situation caused by the government.

    I'd bet next month's rent that the poster I was quoting voted for the current government.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    the_syco wrote: »

    Currently, all LL's have to accept HAP. It's illegal to say no. There is little to no actual social housing; it's all private LL's. If you eliminated the "large stock of social and community housing", how would Vienna be, I wonder? (seriously asking)

    I can't even imagine how you could do that, the city has been like this since the 20s. The only thing I could guess is that it wouldn't be number one in the world anymore, so why on earth would you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Caryatnid wrote: »
    Let's not forget this important fact: over half the homes available for rent in Dublin are on Airbnb. This should simply be not allowed.

    I believe Berlin banned whole homes being rented on Airbnb (rooms only were allowed).

    I know this wouldn't solve everything, but it WOULD make a difference.

    Reference here, please read: https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/one-of-every-two-dublin-rentals-now-only-for-tourists-daft-ie-study-claims-1.3496502%3fmode=amp

    Airbnb are HQ'ed here, currently employ 500 and are looking to expand to 1000 in the next 5 years....so no chance the government are going to ban their "product"


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    Currently, all LL's have to accept HAP. It's illegal to say no. There is little to no actual social housing; it's all private LL's. If you eliminated the "large stock of social and community housing", how would Vienna be, I wonder? (seriously asking)

    I gladly answer that for you: The available stock of social and community housing is super low there and people who need and can avail of it wait forever. There are a lot of black sheep living in these apartments (it's almost completely apartments) and the way it works is super complex and has a lot to do with who you actually know. There's a building boom over there going on at the moment where a lot of new luxury rental property is thrown on the market out of reach for most people. The big stock that's there is full and if you need something affordable you'll look long, they have other housing problems. The one thing that's a difference though is that there's a support payment that everyone can avail of if they have low income and the rent per square meter is below a certain threshold, the payment goes to the tenant and they pay the LL. Now it's not as high as HAP but it's definitely a big help.
    The actual market over there is in a state because Austria is still working through the huge influx of refugees that they got 3 years ago and this brought certain socio-economic problems. It's not easy finding affordable accommodation there either. If I go in-depth now I'll spend the next 3 hours typing though, so I hope it helps to understand a bit.
    But Vienna isn't a kip full of junkies and the police is actually enforcing misdemeanor, so it's a pretty nice and safe place to be. Plus all the culture. And the food.

    Edit: rental caps are within the inflation. You can't raise the rent more than inflation, if there's a deflation, rent usually goes down. If your tenant moves out you can raise the rent a bit more unless they get someone to take over the contract, popular method with unlimited contracts. But LLs find their ways around it, new developments now have ridiculously high "parking lot rents" where they charge you some prime location rate in the outer districts or "kitchen rents". Apartments come unfurnished but kitchen is usually in already.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    What should happen is that the market should be supplied to keep rents at the desired level. The Central bank used to release funds to bring down interest rates and buy back currency when it wanted higher rates. The same should be done with housing. Rent capping only makes things worse. The situation should be that no one should be able to seriously ask that price, not that they should be stopped from asking it.

    And I completely agree but these things don't happen overnight. Decades will pass until supply begins to approach demand. Until then we will price ordinary people out of the market and a symbiotic approach is needed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Caryatnid wrote: »
    Let's not forget this important fact: over half the homes available for rent in Dublin are on Airbnb. This should simply be not allowed.

    I believe Berlin banned whole homes being rented on Airbnb (rooms only were allowed)....

    Berlin also had rent controls and it didn't work either. It just caused other problems.

    Airbnb is a problem. But its only a symptom of a bigger issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Caryatnid


    Airbnb are HQ'ed here, currently employ 500 and are looking to expand to 1000 in the next 5 years....so no chance the government are going to ban their "product"
    I think that is an excellent point


  • Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    You have it backwards. The landlord would prefer not to have any involvement with state resources, or social tenants. It's the state that has forced that situation. By deciding not to build their own social housing..

    Great, so we can expect private landlords to build their own electricity, water, sewage, telecommunications, road and footpath infrastructure and stop depending upon the state for this?
    At least there'd be integrity to their "the state has no right to interfere in private property" mantra then. At the moment it's just risible hypocrisy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    They work well in Vienna, in combination with a large stock of social and community housing.. and how is Vienna ranked as a place to live again? Right, number one in the world on some of the best ranking systems

    Vienna has a housing shortage also. And a problem with new supply being restricted. Rent controls have helped with rents, but not with the shortage. In fact they may have exacerbated it. They did not stop building social housing, we did. Big difference. We still aren't building them. They are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Great, so we can expect private landlords to build their own electricity, water, sewage, telecommunications, road and footpath infrastructure and stop depending upon the state for this?
    At least there'd be integrity to their "the state has no right to interfere in private property" mantra then. At the moment it's just risible hypocrisy.

    The State doesn't build it, taxes build it...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'm amazed how little criticism of the govt inaction on building housing there in on this thread and other similar ones.

    Even when other Govt building policies are mentioned, our Govt gets a free pass. Amazing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    beauf wrote: »
    I'm not sure you understand supply and demand.

    It's not about this room. It's about the lack of supply of anything cheaper. In this location. In other locations there are cheaper options.

    I'm not sure you read my sentence properly. I wasn't correlating the price of the room with the lack of supply. The price and quality of the room wasn't a natural progression leading on from a mismatch of supply and demand. I think that an increased supply would make it a renter's market however I still don't think that landlords should have the ability to rent a room of this calibre, for this price. Housing, like a lot of other businesses where human well being is involved should have some state involvement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    beauf wrote: »
    The State doesn't build it, taxes build it...

    Who collects an administers the taxes?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    beauf wrote: »
    The market is acting normally. Supply and demand.

    Supply is being restricted.

    If supply is being restricted, the market's distorted and possibly even could be dysfunctional.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    Vienna has a housing shortage also. And a problem with new supply being restricted. Rent controls have helped with rents, but not with the shortage. In fact they may have exacerbated it. They did not stop building social housing, we did. Big difference. We still aren't building them. They are.

    The difference is, the viennese shortage just means you have to spend time looking for one, but once you find one (and everyone does) you pay the same low rent as everyone else, except of course those on super low inherited contracts. You know how much my rent increased the last six years? From 394-422, and part of that is management company increases. I lost track of how much my sister's in Dublin increased but it was (whatever the old max was) around 10% a year for a while.

    Anyway rent controls wouldn't be responsible for the shortage since new builds are the stock that are exempt from them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Sounds contradictory. Same rent except where there are no controls. So then not the same rent. It hasn't fixed the shortage either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    If supply is being restricted, the market's distorted and possibly even could be dysfunctional.

    Hence the biggest housing crisis in the history of the State. ...?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Who collects an administers the taxes?

    Who pays their wages...

    .. this could take a while...as it's a circular argument...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    .... Housing, like a lot of other businesses where human well being is involved should have some state involvement.

    You do. They decided to out source social housing to the private market. To save money.

    At the same time they are making it a foreign investment vehicle with low taxes for investment companies.

    How is that working out....


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    Sounds contradictory. Same rent except where there are no controls. So then not the same rent. It hasn't fixed the shortage either.

    Same rent when you find an older building that's is controlled, which the vast majority do, it just takes more time. It's new builds that aren't really controlled.. It's complicated but the proof is in the pudding as they say. And of course once you do find a place you get a 5-10 year contract so while the shortage makes it take longer once you do find a place you are sorted


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,642 ✭✭✭✭Graham


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I still don't think that landlords should have the ability to rent a room of this calibre, for this price.

    Did you read the ad before grabbing the pitch fork?

    It was being advertised as 1-bedroom flat share by someone who appears to have decided to cram a single bed into what looks like the dressing/wardrobe space of their own bedroom.

    "Single bed room in the heart of Ranelagh. Sharing with one female professional."
    "Flat is not owner occupied"
    "Looking for females only"


  • Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Great, so we can expect private landlords to build their own electricity, water, sewage, telecommunications, road and footpath infrastructure and stop depending upon the state for this?
    At least there'd be integrity to their "the state has no right to interfere in private property" mantra then. At the moment it's just risible hypocrisy.

    Bull of the highest order.

    LLs pay tax (and very very large amounts of it) to pay for these services you can’t go around making statements like “we can force rules on them because they use services (that they are already paying for in tax)”

    Every business uses these services but I don’t see you calling for supermarkets to have be forced to charge a certain price for a loaf of bread, or a car dealer being told “oh no you can’t charge that for a car the price is fixed at much lower” I could go on all night with examples. Renting out property is a private business which people get into in order to make profit and they should be allowed to maximize the profit their business makes by selling their product at a price they see for the same as petty much every other business in the country.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The problem with Vienna is it's not just rent controls. It's a while load of govt policies and strategies over decades not just housing, but planning land use, public transport planning over many decades.

    So it's disingenuous to suggest rent controls are the solution. They are one part of whole mriyad of social policies that have been built up since WW1. We are in the stone age in comparison.


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