If Germany had of won the war, what would Ireland look like now infrastructure wise?

shakeitoff · 21-07-2018 05:21PM

It's actually pretty cool to imagine that world tbh. Maybe the Americans would have cowered and been more tolerant of Hitler for a while anyway. You'd probably have large parts of the USA with massive German speaking enclaves in the midwest

Kermit.de.frog · 21-07-2018 05:26PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJl5eLw2tA

21-07-2018 05:26PM

Regarding infrastructure, Hitler was a rail fan, despite building Autobahns all over the place he wanted to also build a new high speed rail network using a super broad gauge track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dexIJQqvYng

wakka12 · 21-07-2018 05:35PM

It never would have led to anything good and would have just resulted in further unrest and war and destruction of europe as populations inevitably continued to resist

21-07-2018 05:35PM

Berserker wrote: »

And were treated like dirt back here because they did. The men who went away were great men. The RoI should be really proud of them.

Maybe you could try calling the country by its actual name for once

Stigura · 21-07-2018 05:53PM

I read an article, quite recently, about the nazi's plans for Ireland. BBC site?

Apparently, they had ~ I believe it was ~ their Fourth Army lined up to steam roll up from the south. Taking over the state in two or three days. (I honestly can't remember what the plan was, when the Brit's came down to meet them)

Fourth Army, it seems weren't the most charming bunch. And their remit was to simply hoover up absolutely anything of use and ship it back to Germany. Bullocks to Bucks, one might imagine?

Anyone stupid enough to raise an objection was to have been simply shot where they stood.

Grand bunch of lads.

uck51js9zml2yt · 21-07-2018 05:56PM

We'd have been enslaved or sent to the gas chambers.
Either way, it wouldn't have been a good experience!

TheValeyard · 21-07-2018 06:04PM

archer22 · 21-07-2018 06:05PM

I think it will be a long long time before the reality version of World War2 is revealed.

The victors propaganda version is too deeply ingrained now.

RiderOnTheStorm · 21-07-2018 06:09PM

If we were half German and half Irish, then everything must be done perfectly......tomorrow.

EdgeCase · 21-07-2018 06:19PM

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

If we were half German and half Irish, then everything must be done perfectly......tomorrow.

Some of the most laid back people I know are German and Germany itself isn't all that neat and tidy. it very much depends where you are and who you're having around with.

Likewise in Ireland, I've found people in certian circumstances anything but laid back, very fussy about time, getting into arguments with neighbours about one leaf growing over a garden fence ana all of that kind of thing.

Neither country in my experience lives up to its respective stereotype.

CrankyHaus · 21-07-2018 06:31PM

Taytoland wrote: »

Who gave the Russians the weapons? The materials? The United States of course, which Khrushchev is on record saying they would have lost without it.

Allied aid was significant, quite possibly decisive, but the Russians turned out a vast amount of weapons themselves.

The Russians did defeat the vast majority of the German Army, but things could have been very different without the Western Allies' contribution.

To take just one example the opportunity cost to the Germans of defending against the Allied bombing campaign was enormous: a huge proportion of artillery production devoted to AA, the majority of fighter strength deployed in the West. The eastern front could have been quite different otherwise.

Ireland would have fared badly if the Germans won. The Nazis regarded Celtic peoples as one of the lowest class of human in the European groupings. Their state was basically a kleptocracy led by a madman. Any infrastructural improvements would have solely served their interests.

Taytoland · 21-07-2018 06:51PM

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Who gave the Russians the weapons? The materials? The United States of course, which Khrushchev is on record saying they would have lost without it.

Allied aid was significant, quite possibly decisive, but the Russians turned out a vast amount of weapons themselves.

The Russians did defeat the vast majority of the German Army, but things could have been very different without the Western Allies' contribution.

To take just one example the opportunity cost to the Germans of defending against the Allied bombing campaign was enormous: a huge proportion of artillery production devoted to AA, the majority of fighter strength deployed in the West. The eastern front could have been quite different otherwise.

Ireland would have fared badly if the Germans won. The Nazis regarded Celtic peoples as one of the lowest class of human in the European groupings. Their state was basically a kleptocracy led by a madman. Any infrastructural improvements would have solely served their interests.

Britain had supplied the Soviet Union with British tank armor, delivered over 400 tanks to them by December 1941 which was a crucial time as far as Moscow is concerned. Russia would have fallen without these supplies. This was before the higher standard Russian tanks such as the T-34.

smokingman · 21-07-2018 06:58PM

If there's one thing about the trumpians antics lately, it sure seems like they feel absolutely no fear of admiring nazis at all...

CrankyHaus · 21-07-2018 06:59PM

Taytoland wrote: »

Britain had supplied the Soviet Union with British tank armor, delivered over 400 tanks to them by December 1941 which was a crucial time as far as Moscow is concerned. Russia would have fallen without these supplies. This was before the higher standard Russian tanks such as the T-34.

The Russians built nearly 120,000 tanks 1940 to 1945, over 6,500 in 1941 alone, including over 3,000 T34s.

400 tanks is not decisive in this context and British tanks were not well regarded by the Soviets (or anyone) until the Centurion introduced post-war.

archer22 · 21-07-2018 07:09PM

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Allied aid was significant, quite possibly decisive, but the Russians turned out a vast amount of weapons themselves.

The Russians did defeat the vast majority of the German Army, but things could have been very different without the Western Allies' contribution.

To take just one example the opportunity cost to the Germans of defending against the Allied bombing campaign was enormous: a huge proportion of artillery production devoted to AA, the majority of fighter strength deployed in the West. The eastern front could have been quite different otherwise.

Ireland would have fared badly if the Germans won. The Nazis regarded Celtic peoples as one of the lowest class of human in the European groupings. Their state was basically a kleptocracy led by a madman. Any infrastructural improvements would have solely served their interests.

Actually they regarded them as Aryans.

Another interesting fact is that 60% of the Waffen SS were non Germans and included many volunteers from non white nations.

TerrorFirmer · 21-07-2018 07:14PM

It wouldn't have made much difference. They planned to conquer eastern Europe and Ukraine and exterminate/relocate the majority of the population and incorporate the land into a greater Germany.

They didn't plan to permanently occupy western European countries (or most central European countries). Irish people would neither have been enslaved, or sent to the gas chambers (I don't know why people even say this), if Germany had invaded. Maybe during wartime, like in France, they would've taken a cohert of men as slave labor for the war industry...and they might have pillaged our food stocks for the same reason.

But generally they cared little to nothing about Ireland or it's people, or had any designs on them (or the peoples of most central/western european countries outside of jews, the disabled, other easily identified 'undesirables', etc) Germany only had plans to invade/assist Ireland if it were military necessary due to the situation with the UK.

Even on that, Hitler did not want to invade the UK, but prefered a negotiated peace after the fall of France (not forthcoming obviously)....and plans for the invasion of the UK never really were seriously developed.

Hitler had a clearly defined plan from the beginning for what he wanted for a post-war Germany. He wasn't a Sunday morning cartoon villian hell bent on global domination and he had little to no interest in Ireland or its people outside of how it might factor in forcing the UK to sue for peace.

Ultimanemo · 21-07-2018 07:17PM

If Germany had of won the war, You would be drinking Oettinger instead of Guinness

archer22 · 21-07-2018 07:18PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It wouldn't have made much difference. They planned to conquer eastern Europe and Ukraine and exterminate/relocate the majority of the population and incorporate the land into a greater Germany.

They didn't plan to permanently occupy western European countries (or most central European countries). Irish people would neither have been enslaved, or sent to the gas chambers (I don't know why people even say this), if Germany had invaded. Maybe during wartime, like in France, they would've taken a cohert of men as slave labor for the war industry...and they might have pillaged our food stocks for the same reason.

But generally they cared little to nothing about Ireland or it's people, or had any designs on them (or the peoples of most central/western european countries outside of jews, the disabled, other easily identified 'undesirables', etc) Germany only had plans to invade/assist Ireland if it were military necessary due to the situation with the UK.

Even on that, Hitler did not want to invade the UK, but prefered a negotiated peace after the fall of France (not forthcoming obviously)....and plans for the invasion of the UK never really were seriously developed.

Hitler had a clearly defined plan from the beginning for what he wanted for a post-war Germany. He wasn't a Sunday morning cartoon villian hell bent on global domination and he had little to no interest in Ireland or its people outside of how it might factor in forcing the UK to sue for peace.

Ukraine and most of the east European states were German Allies...the Ukrainians still honour their troops who fought alongside the Germans.

TerrorFirmer · 21-07-2018 07:23PM

archer22 wrote: »

Ukraine and most of the east European states were German Allies...the Ukrainians still honour their troops who fought alongside the Germans.

No, they weren't. They weren't even countries at that point in time. Germany planned to eradicate Poland/Ukraine/baltics/other parts of western USSR to create a greater Germany.

There was support for Germany in these areas in some sectors but generally speaking they were nonetheless treated barbarically by the Germans.

Romania and Hungary were primary German allies - these were not part of the envisioned greater Germany.

shakeitoff · 21-07-2018 07:31PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It wouldn't have made much difference. They planned to conquer eastern Europe and Ukraine and exterminate/relocate the majority of the population and incorporate the land into a greater Germany.

They didn't plan to permanently occupy western European countries (or most central European countries). Irish people would neither have been enslaved, or sent to the gas chambers (I don't know why people even say this), if Germany had invaded. Maybe during wartime, like in France, they would've taken a cohert of men as slave labor for the war industry...and they might have pillaged our food stocks for the same reason.

But generally they cared little to nothing about Ireland or it's people, or had any designs on them (or the peoples of most central/western european countries outside of jews, the disabled, other easily identified 'undesirables', etc) Germany only had plans to invade/assist Ireland if it were military necessary due to the situation with the UK.

Even on that, Hitler did not want to invade the UK, but prefered a negotiated peace after the fall of France (not forthcoming obviously)....and plans for the invasion of the UK never really were seriously developed.

Hitler had a clearly defined plan from the beginning for what he wanted for a post-war Germany. He wasn't a Sunday morning cartoon villian hell bent on global domination and he had little to no interest in Ireland or its people outside of how it might factor in forcing the UK to sue for peace.

As a good trait, we love to play the beaten down oppressed island card(It makes us humble and why we have the reputation for being nice and friendly imo) so we just assume we must have been viewed by Hitler the way we are depicted in old timey Britsh newspaper publications.
You know the quote from The Commitments about the Irish being 'the blacks' of Europe, yeah, tell that to the Jews, Gyspies and Slavs.

Irish were viewed second on the racial ladder, along with the rest of western and northern europe.

archer22 · 21-07-2018 07:34PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

No, they weren't. They weren't even countries at that point in time. Germany planned to eradicate Poland/Ukraine/baltics/other parts of western USSR to create a greater Germany.

There was support for Germany in these areas in some sectors but generally speaking they were nonetheless treated barbarically by the Germans.

Romania and Hungary were primary German allies - these were not part of the envisioned greater Germany.

That doesn't quite stand up...for example Ukraine had endless famines under Soviet occupation but no Famines in the years when the 'barbaric' Germans were there.
However after their liberation by the 'benevolent' Soviets they had another famine in 1946 which left over a million dead.

TerrorFirmer · 21-07-2018 07:39PM

archer22 wrote: »

That doesn't quite stand up...for example Ukraine had endless famines under Soviet occupation but no Famines in the years when the 'barbaric' Germans were there.
However after their liberation by the 'benevolent' Soviets they had another famine in 1946 which left over a million dead.

Some light bed time reading for you.

They were never able to carry out their plans fully for obvious reasons (military defeat) but to actually try and suggest that the Germans were anything other than barbaric occupiers in the eastern territories is absurd.

EdgeCase · 21-07-2018 07:41PM

Basically, had Germany won the war, I think you would have had a period of uprisings against occupation and ultimately Europe being torn apart. It was always going to be an untenable, aggressive incursion into other countries and a warped ideology that simply couldn't have progressed.

I think you'd have seen the collapse of the regime and then probably economic problems as recovery would have been far slower and more chaotic. I'd say something more like a very messy version of the collapse of the Soviet Union only, far worse as it would have been a right wing fascist state.

You also could have seen something like a major war, possibly even a nuclear one, with either the US or USSR as that technology would have inevitably emerged one way or the other due to progress in physics.

For example, had the nazis remained in power and developed weapons of mass destruction like nuclear capability, then perhaps attacked the US, the US would most certainly have retaliated. So, I'd suspect by the 1950s you'd have had a hot war with the states one way or the other.

So, I think you could have been looking at 20th century that was far more chaotic and I suspect Europe would have turned out far less developed than it did with the end of WWII and a shift towards stable, and pretty progressive free market social democracies that did genuinely see a huge rise in living standards.

There's also have been no EU or concepts of interdependent single markets. Instead, it probably would have just a bunch of nation states still feuding over various disputes and there could well have been regional wars throughout the 20th century between countries that they would be unimaginable in in the reality that actually emerged.

You have to win an ideological war, and the nazi ideology simply does not stand up as tenable at all. It is utterly warped, genocidal and cult-like at its core, which is why it could never have progressed. It didn't sell a message of hope, it ruled by fear and control. Regimes like that implode.

archer22 · 21-07-2018 07:43PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Some light bed time reading for you.

They were never able to carry out their plans fully for obvious reasons (military defeat) but to actually try and suggest that the Germans were anything other than barbaric occupiers in the eastern territories is absurd.

I think if you ever care to discuss the subject with older East Europeans you will be surprised to see that their take on it is very different to that of western Europeans who only know it from propaganda literature and media.

One_Of_Shanks · 21-07-2018 07:47PM

You'd be able to catch a bus or train on time, the cops wouldn't have to say "hehh-ickle" and we'd all sound like we were being verbally assaulted with every communication.

Plus, theres no bloody way our crowd could be trusted to drive at whatever speed they like. They're dangerous enough at 100

Taytoland · 21-07-2018 07:57PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

archer22 wrote: »

That doesn't quite stand up...for example Ukraine had endless famines under Soviet occupation but no Famines in the years when the 'barbaric' Germans were there.
However after their liberation by the 'benevolent' Soviets they had another famine in 1946 which left over a million dead.

Some light bed time reading for you.

They were never able to carry out their plans fully for obvious reasons (military defeat) but to actually try and suggest that the Germans were anything other than barbaric occupiers in the eastern territories is absurd.

No different from the Bolshevik treatment of Ukraine.

TerrorFirmer · 21-07-2018 08:14PM

archer22 wrote: »

I think if you ever care to discuss the subject with older East Europeans you will be surprised to see that their take on it is very different to that of western Europeans who only know it from propaganda literature and media.

What's that supposed to prove? You could say that about literally anything.

I already mentioned that some sectors welcomed the Germans as liberators and allies, but most soon turned sour as the Germans treated them very poorly, broadly speaking.

What you said was - Ukraine and other eastern european countries were allies of Nazi Germany, which is completely false.

So unless you're suggesting that 'lebensraum' is complete propaganda.....? A long documented plan to starve dozens of millions of people in Poland, Ukraine, baltics, etc and transplant German settlers/ethnic Germans.

If this history as we know it is all propaganda, what really happened during the occupation, and what was the longer term plan for the eastern USSR?

No different from the Bolshevik treatment of Ukraine.

Largely agree, not really the argument here though.

gw80 · 21-07-2018 08:15PM

I dont know about nazi germanys regime, but Oswald Mosley,s idea of Europe might have been somthing to look into to a degree.

archer22 · 21-07-2018 08:23PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

What's that supposed to prove? You could say that about literally anything.

I already mentioned that some sectors welcomed the Germans as liberators and allies, but most soon turned sour as the Germans treated them very poorly, broadly speaking.

What you said was - Ukraine and other eastern european countries were allies of Nazi Germany, which is completely false.

So unless you're suggesting that 'lebensraum' is complete propaganda.....? A long documented plan to starve dozens of millions of people in Poland, Ukraine, baltics, etc and transplant German settlers/ethnic Germans.

If this history as we know it is all propaganda, what really happened during the occupation, and what was the longer term plan for the eastern USSR?

Largely agree, not really the argument here though.

Good point...and the same can be said for all the stuff you are putting up..anybody can say or write anything, fake anything or take things out of context.
But if we take just reality..then none of the stuff you put up actually happened.

If Germany had of won the war, what would Ireland look like now infrastructure wise?

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