Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

hatrickpatrick · 09-06-2018 03:01PM

@Silentcorner, you're omitting one key fact: The session at which this all happened was undoubtedly a massive drinking binge and I find it highly likely that drugs were involved as well. In that context, everyone involved could believe that they were telling the truth - because when you wake up or come out of your drink/drugs "trip" in an unexplainable situation with massive chunks of the night missing from your memory, your brain literally invents jigsaw pieces to fit into those chunks. Everyone's experienced that before, or at least everyone who's ever got totally f*cked up on mind altering substances has. It's not that you even think you might remember something, sometimes your brain literally encodes things which didn't happen into your memories and to you they are recalled no differently to the memory of what you had for breakfast this morning.

Silentcorner · 09-06-2018 03:30PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

@Silentcorner, you're omitting one key fact: The session at which this all happened was undoubtedly a massive drinking binge and I find it highly likely that drugs were involved as well. In that context, everyone involved could believe that they were telling the truth - because when you wake up or come out of your drink/drugs "trip" in an unexplainable situation with massive chunks of the night missing from your memory, your brain literally invents jigsaw pieces to fit into those chunks. Everyone's experienced that before, or at least everyone who's ever got totally f*cked up on mind altering substances has. It's not that you even think you might remember something, sometimes your brain literally encodes things which didn't happen into your memories and to you they are recalled no differently to the memory of what you had for breakfast this morning.

I am not omitting that at all, I am perfectly aware that the lads have by some distance, way more to drink than the young lady had.

FrancieBrady · 09-06-2018 03:33PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am not omitting that at all, I am perfectly aware that the lads have by some distance, way more to drink than the young lady had.

The amount is unimportant.
If you go past a certain point (it's different for everybody) then any account would be dubious.

The jury clearly and quickly assessed who they believed.

Nice try at making the acquitted seem like the bad guys though! :rolleyes:

Silentcorner · 09-06-2018 04:05PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The amount is unimportant.
If you go past a certain point (it's different for everybody) then any account would be dubious.

The jury clearly and quickly assessed who they believed.

Nice try at making the acquitted seem like the bad guys though! :rolleyes:

You mean, the amount is unimportant for you, and to those who wish to believe that this was a false rape accusation.

FrancieBrady · 09-06-2018 04:19PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

You mean, the amount is unimportant for you, and to those who wish to believe that this was a false rape accusation.

No, I meant, the amount was unimportant.

People react in different ways to different amounts of alcohol.

If you are doing a solo run on deciding on guilt you should know this. The jury that acquitted and believed these men were certainly aware of it.

salmocab · 09-06-2018 04:21PM

Has this actually come back to whether it was rape or not?
The jury decided it wasnt and really that should be the end of that.

Silentcorner · 09-06-2018 04:24PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I meant, the amount was unimportant.

People react in different ways to different amounts of alcohol.

If you are doing a solo run on deciding on guilt you should know this. The jury that acquitted and believed these men were certainly aware of it.

People do react in different ways to alcohol, the more you take the more likely you will do something that may well be out of character, the courts are full of such instances...

The 4 lads were all acquitted and best of luck to them in their futures, but it does not make it right that the young woman should be accused of making a false rape accusation...

Just because I am not succumbing to the group think on this thread does not immediately mean I my opinion is meaningless or bias filled.

Indeed, the more you surround yourself with like minded individuals, the more likely your bias will affect you.

FrancieBrady · 09-06-2018 04:30PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

People do react in different ways to alcohol, the more you take the more likely you will do something that may well be out of character, the courts are full of such instances...

The 4 lads were all acquitted and best of luck to them in their futures, but it does not make it right that the young woman should be accused of making a false rape accusation...

Just because I am not succumbing to the group think on this thread does not immediately mean I my opinion is meaningless or bias filled.

Indeed, the more you surround yourself with like minded individuals, the more likely your bias will affect you.

If the jury found there was no rape, then they believed the claim to have been a false one. The evidence did not, in their opinion, support such a claim.

You have no right to insinuate that there was a rape. That is just vigilante nonsense.

Mrmoe · 09-06-2018 04:38PM

Happy he has found a club somewhere else.He can move on now and try and rebuild his life.

DavidLyons_ · 09-06-2018 04:45PM

salmocab wrote: »

Has this actually come back to whether it was rape or not?
The jury decided it wasnt and really that should be the end of that.

Certain moronic elements just need to move on.

The desire to lynch the acquitted in this case is mentally deranged and indicative of a sinister cohort within Irish society that is unable to allow for the possibility that they may not always be right.

Dangerous people deluding themselves that they hold the moral high ground.

Personally I am fcuking delighted that they are so raging that the two NOT GUILTY boys have moved on with their lives.

Silentcorner · 09-06-2018 04:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If the jury found there was no rape, then they believed the claim to have been a false one. The evidence did not, in their opinion, support such a claim.

You have no right to insinuate that there was a rape. That is just vigilante nonsense.

The jury found the lads not guilty, and I accept that, I hope the lads put this year behind them and successfully restart their careers.

The jury did not find the young lady made a false rape claim, therefore it is not right to insinuate that there was a false rape accusation, that too would be "vigilante nonsense"...but you would require a healthy dose of self awareness to accept that.

Silentcorner · 09-06-2018 04:50PM

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

Certain moronic elements just need to move on.

The desire to lynch the acquitted in this case is mentally deranged and indicative of a sinister cohort within Irish society that is unable to allow for the possibility that they may not always be right.

Dangerous people deluding themselves that they hold the moral high ground.

Personally I am fcuking delighted that they are so raging that the two NOT GUILTY boys have moved on with their lives.

Right, this is getting to you a bit more than I intended to, sorry for any role I have had in that...

BBDBB · 09-06-2018 04:50PM

Seems the debate is getting bogged down in semantics

DavidLyons_ · 09-06-2018 04:51PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

The jury found the lads not guilty, and I accept that, I hope the lads put this year behind them and successfully restart their careers.

The jury did not find the young lady made a false rape claim, therefore it is not right to insinuate that there was a false rape accusation, that too would be "vigilante nonsense"...but you would require a healthy dose of self awareness to accept that.

Fair point.

All involved should be allowed the opportunity to continue with their lives as best they can.

FrancieBrady · 09-06-2018 04:57PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

The jury found the lads not guilty, and I accept that, I hope the lads put this year behind them and successfully restart their careers.

The jury did not find the young lady made a false rape claim, therefore it is not right to insinuate that there was a false rape accusation, that too would be "vigilante nonsense"...but you would require a healthy dose of self awareness to accept that.

But of course you reserve the right to 'decide' who was telling the truth and who you believe.

Get down of that horse!

DavidLyons_ · 09-06-2018 04:59PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Right, this is getting to you a bit more than I intended to, sorry for any role I have had in that...

That's quite alright. You're over estimating your importance again. Think nothing of it.

But thank you for the apology.

take everything · 09-06-2018 05:05PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ok, I do not believe that both people could both believe they were telling the truth, for this you have suggested that my bias is blinding me, I disagree.

So lets take a different situation.

If you had two school kids, John and Mike, John claims that Mike stole his money by force, Mike denys even having the money. All you know for sure is that they were both in the same place at the same time...You can't punish on the basis of a lack of proof, but can you also believe that both John and Mike both believe they are telling the truth? One of them is clearly lying.

The account of the young woman is too different to PJs account, therefore they both cannot be telling the truth.

The following link contains a full explanation of McIlroys role, he was charged with indecent exposure... to a woman he claims wanted to have sex with him... https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/blane-mcilroy-admits-deleting-texts-which-mentioned-alleged-rape-victim-i-thought-they-didnt-read-well-36688227.html kindly explain to me how both the young woman and McIlroy could both believe they are telling the truth?

I have tried parsing the bolded part above but can't.

Edit: apologies I misread it. Ignore the above.

But both can believe they were telling the truth in this case.
It's not as clear cut as theft where yes one person can be said to be lying.

Muahahaha · 09-06-2018 07:48PM

Mrmoe wrote: »

Happy he has found a club somewhere else.He can move on now and try and rebuild his life.

Same here. He has been found not guilty at the end of the day so deserves to be able to rebuild his career in rugby. Its unlikely he will ever play for Ireland again and that is punishment enough.

Roger Hassenforder · 09-06-2018 08:03PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ok, I do not believe that both people could both believe they were telling the truth, for this you have suggested that my bias is blinding me, I disagree.

I cant see any issue with them both believing theyre telling the truth. This is not the same as they are both telling the truth.

Silentcorner wrote: »

So lets take a different situation.

If you had two school kids, John and Mike, John claims that Mike stole his money by force, Mike denys even having the money. All you know for sure is that they were both in the same place at the same time...You can't punish on the basis of a lack of proof, but can you also believe that both John and Mike both believe they are telling the truth? One of them is clearly lying.

The account of the young woman is too different to PJs account, therefore they both cannot be telling the truth.

The following link contains a full explanation of McIlroys role, he was charged with indecent exposure... to a woman he claims wanted to have sex with him... https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/blane-mcilroy-admits-deleting-texts-which-mentioned-alleged-rape-victim-i-thought-they-didnt-read-well-36688227.html kindly explain to me how both the young woman and McIlroy could both believe they are telling the truth?

I actually thought Blaine might get done.

Your analogy should read:

If you had two school kids, John and Mike, John claims that Mike took his money without his permission. Mike says John gave him the money. All you know for sure is that they were both in the same place at the same time...You can't punish on the basis of a lack of proof, but can you also believe that both John and Mike both believe they are telling the truth? One of them is clearly lying.

Again. Not necessarily.
If they both believe their version of events, then they are not lying.
If one of them knows his related version of events was untrue, then he would be lying.

hatrickpatrick · 10-06-2018 05:30AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am not omitting that at all, I am perfectly aware that the lads have by some distance, way more to drink than the young lady had.

Where's the evidence of that? Just my opinion but as far as I'm concerned, having been at parties like this over the years, it's highly likely that every single person who crossed the threshold of that house's door, the complainant included, was absolutely sh!t faced. Given the not guilty verdicts contrasted with the obviously genuine distress on the part of the complainant, I'd bet substantial amounts on this being a classic case of people sobering up mid-session and suddenly saying "holy sh!t, what the hell is even going on right now and how did I end up here". It's happened to most of us at some point. In that scenario, it's easily possible for her to believe that she was raped while the lads believe it was consensual - if the events leading up to the sexual activity are totally obscured by the memory impairment which is inherent in heavy alcohol consumption.

Roger Hassenforder · 19-07-2018 08:35PM

RTE flogging a "look back" at 22:15 tonight.

bloodless_coup · 19-07-2018 09:28PM

Nice and biased so far.

19-07-2018 09:47PM

Seems to be just a recap of what happened. Nothing new. Dunno what I expected.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2018 09:49PM

Remote control bait.

Specialun · 19-07-2018 09:56PM

its done and dusted. why not leave the guys move on with their life.

blackwhite · 19-07-2018 09:59PM

The lawyers in Montrose must have been very busy the last few weeks.
Utter hatchet job, but being very careful not to blatantly cross the defamation line. I’d imagine there’s some amount of footage from their interviews that had to be left out.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2018 10:07PM

Nothing is finished until RTE's go to feminist Susan McKay gets to pronounce on it.

Wonder how happy she would be to have her Whatsapp messages pored over by the media and general public.

Roger Hassenforder · 19-07-2018 10:13PM

Load of sh1t3 TBH

Heres Johnny · 19-07-2018 10:19PM

Brutal, biased character assassinations of something that should be confined to the past. Why drag it up it offered nothing new?
Leave it in the past for all their sakes, young lady included. No winners and never will be.

jm08 · 20-07-2018 02:42PM

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Brutal, biased character assassinations of something that should be confined to the past. Why drag it up it offered nothing new?
Leave it in the past for all their sakes, young lady included. No winners and never will be.

I thought it was very factual. Very hard to ignore that the WhatsApp banter shone a light on a group of young men who are dinosaurs when it comes to their attitude to women.

Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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