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Who exactly is Irish?

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13

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    #62
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,347 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    logical2019 wrote: »
    Recently Ireland won silver at the IAAF u20 championship, and the team was made up of 3 "black Nigerians" and 1 white Irish girl...

    There were no Nigerians on the Irish team. Only Irish. Black Irish and white Irish, if you like, but Irish, nonetheless.


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    #63
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,955 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    There were no Nigerians on the Irish team. Only Irish. Black Irish and white Irish, if you like, but Irish, nonetheless.
    Why does it matter where they were born, as it's lineage that proves what your biological make up is... and what your provenance is.


    A cat can have kittens in a maternity hospital but it doesn't make them human.


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    #64
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,955 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057675185

    How do you define someone who is Irish?
    Born and/or brought up in Ireland to Irish parent(s) (YES)
    Born and/or brought up in Ireland to foreign parents(NO)
    Someone who moved here as an adult and has since naturalised (NO)
    Born and brought up abroad to Irish parents(NO)
    I wasn't around for that thread but have given my answers above.


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    #65
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,955 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    There were no Nigerians on the Irish team. Only Irish. Black Irish and white Irish, if you like, but Irish, nonetheless.
    Yes.
    And the three nigerians.


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    #66
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,347 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Why does it matter where they were born, as it's lineage that proves what your biological make up is... and what your provenance is.


    A cat can have kittens in a maternity hospital but it doesn't make them human.

    I never mentioned where anyone was born?!

    Not sure about the rest of your post. I dunno what cats have to do with anything.

    An Irish woman could have a baby in Nigeria, or on a plane to Nigeria, and the child could claim Irish, Nigerian or other citizenship, based on whose airspace the child was born in.


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    #67
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,388 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    We are very multicultural going back the centuries.
    We're really not. While not as isolated as somewhere like Iceland, Ireland was pretty homogeneous for a European country. Her geography greatly influenced this. The island at the edge of Europe, just that little bit too far away. You see this in classical writings on the place. They were extremely thin on the ground and imaginative to say the least. They knew almost nothing of the country. It really only showed up on maps, culturally and geographically in the early medieval. Yes there were cultural influxes from outside of course, religious in the form of the Christian church, Viking and later Norman(essentially the same thing) and English. The Viking/Norman the largest.

    We didn't have nearly the same back and forth cultural and genetic flow of mainland Europe. Even our neighbour England had more(Wales and Scotland are more like Ireland). You can even see this in the landscape with town planning. Go to Europe and you find lots of towns and villages on top of hills with fortified pasts. That's much rarer here, simply because the threat of invasion was so much less. Even in Europe with all this back and forth people native to a locale tend to have genetic legacies going way back in the same locales. Which makes sense as it's easy to forget that until forms of mass transportation came along most people were born, and lived, raised families and died within about 20 miles of their birthplace. Merchants and military being the general exceptions to this.

    So no we weren't "very multicultural". That's a bit of a fallacy. We certainly weren't as multicultural as today, very few places were outside a handful of big cities, usually centres of trade and imperial power(Rome, Byzantium, Paris, Venice, London and so forth). Even there not like multicultural cities of today.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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    #68
    Unchopped
    Closed Accounts Posts: 54 ✭✭Unchopped


    I think to be irish is to be born and reared in Ireland irrespective of what nationality or colour the parents are. But i also think there's more to been Irish than just birth and residency.


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    #69
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,955 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I never mentioned where anyone was born?!

    Not sure about the rest of your post. I dunno what cats have to do with anything.

    An Irish woman could have a baby in Nigeria, or on a plane to Nigeria, and the child could claim Irish, Nigerian or other citizenship, based on whose airspace the child was born in.
    How were the three nigerians "Irish" by your reckoning, born here to two Nigerians? Hence the cat analogy. Two Nigerians have a child, doesn't matter where they have it, it's Nigerian not Irish.


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    #70
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,347 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    ELM327 wrote: »
    How were the three nigerians "Irish" by your reckoning, born here to two Nigerians? Hence the cat analogy. Two Nigerians have a child, doesn't matter where they have it, it's Nigerian not Irish.

    There must be a naturalization process. When does that kick in, do you think?

    Dunno about cats. It's a stupid analogy because we're not talking about changing species


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    #71
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,367 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    YFlyer wrote: »
    Recently Ireland won silver at the IAAF u20 championship, and the team was made up of 3 "black Nigerians" and 1 white Irish girl, though they were all born in Ireland, I saw comments on facebook, youtube, twitter etc which were so brutal, racist and hateful towards to the black girls who represented Ireland, they were called many bad names, including "Paper Irish" (named used to describe non-white people who have an Irish passport)
    nk [/B]

    That was the semi final.[/QUOTE]


    They were also second in the final. the team of 5 included 3 of nigerian descent and 2 of irish descent


    https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics/silver-success-the-first-step-for-sprinting-stars-37121530.html


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    #72
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,367 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    How were the three nigerians "Irish" by your reckoning, born here to two Nigerians? Hence the cat analogy. Two Nigerians have a child, doesn't matter where they have it, it's Nigerian not Irish.


    I have bolded the important part.


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    #73
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    If you hold, or are entitled to hold, Irish citizenship, then you're Irish.

    /thread


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    #74
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    If anyone's interested (which you probably aren't) I started a multiple choice poll on this topic precisely asking this 18 months back, 64 pages long, currently has 849 votes.

    I think some of the regular posters who posted in it have been banned now, twas the passion it generated.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057675185

    How do you define someone who is Irish?
    Born and/or brought up in Ireland to Irish parent(s)
    Born and/or brought up in Ireland to foreign parents
    Someone who moved here as an adult and has since naturalised
    Born and brought up abroad to Irish parents

    Always amusing in that poll of course that the top answer only gets 90%, proves that some AH polls aren't always the most reliable! :pac:


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    #75
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    OhHiMark wrote: »
    If somebody grows up in Somalia until they're 20 and then moves to Ireland for 40 years they'll be very culturally Irish.

    I reckon the opposite - where you are raised and your personality formed influences you way more than where you live as an adult. Move me to Timbuktu at this stage of my life and I basically am who I am and will stay that way (more or less) My kids, they'll be altered much more profoundly.
    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Big swinging mickeys.

    "Irish" is just a name for a group of people who happen live on the same rock. It's just a side effect of geography.

    As far as I'm concerned a kid who is born and raised here is as Irish as I am. We all have family, or at least know someone who does, who were born and raised in England, America, Australia - wherever, who may never have so much as set foot in the country but are still "Irish"

    How the hell are they Irish, but someone who was born here and who lived here their whole lives isn't?


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    #76
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,388 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    seamus wrote: »
    If you hold, or are entitled to hold, Irish citizenship, then you're Irish.

    /thread
    Well... not so much. A legal definition sure, but hardly a cultural or anything else one. My father and his brothers were born before 1922, so were technically "British citizens" and could have retained that after independence, that didn't make them British except in legal terms. The aforementioned DeValera, Collins, Connolly and Pearse weren't "Irish" either, until Irish citizenship became a legal and political entity.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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    #77
    RiderOnTheStorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭RiderOnTheStorm


    I think culture is very important in this question. I have always believed that "being Irish" is a state of mind. There are many people on this island that are born of Irish parents that I would not regard as Irish. And some who have moved here from abroad and are here so long, and immersed themselves in the community/ culture, that they are more Irish than the Irish themselves....

    IMHO you are Irish if you have the attitude of "shure it'll be grand", a bit of begrudgery, can laugh at pomposity, know why we never cheer for England (but are friends with many English people), never expect the meeting to start on time (and dont mind...see first point), are intelligent (and skillful) and like to show it off sometimes, and you can hold a conversation, and sometimes a tune (especially if its a rebel song), you are slightly racist (but Paul McGrath is your only man, and God bless Philo), have strong feelings on "de North" and "de Ra".

    There are good and bad traits there....but no one is perfect.

    Being Irish is complicated and full of contradictions


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    #78
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Just to let you know I was born and raised in England to two Irish parents, moved to Northern Ireland aged 14, still have my English accent.

    So I put down my nationality as British when living in Ireland, and Irish when living in England. Just to be awkward like.


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    #79
    mikemac2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    End phone calls with bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye

    If you do this congrats, your passport has been ordered :)


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    #80
    5rtytry56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,828 ✭✭✭5rtytry56


    Best post in thread Rider.

    No other thanks?

    Begrudgers the rest of ye! Good bit of cliqueiness in other posts as well.


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    #81
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »

    So I put down my nationality as British when living in Ireland, and Irish when living in England. Just to be awkward like.

    Jaysus, the denial.

    Face facts man, you're as Irish as a leprechaun drinking a pint of Guinness.:D


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    #82
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Jaysus, the denial.

    Face facts man, you're as Irish as a leprechaun drinking a pint of Guinness.:D

    Joking aside, it is real though, I go to England and tell people my parents are Irish and that I live in Ireland at the moment and a lot of people wont consider me as a proper English person (obviously), and a good number will go as far as calling me Irish directly.

    I don't personally consider myself English or Irish anyway. I play the role of a foreigner in both countries I guess.


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    #83
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,457 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Joking aside, it is real though, I go to England and tell people my parents are Irish and that I live in Ireland at the moment and a lot of people wont consider me as a proper English person (obviously), and a good number will go as far as calling me Irish directly.

    I don't personally consider myself English or Irish anyway. I play the role of a foreigner in both countries I guess.

    It kinda shows how arbitrary nationality is. I'm Irish although I was born in England.
    I've had people here call me english in the past because I was born there. Others say that because my parents are Irish I'm Irish. Others feel that because I moved here aged 4 I'm irish because i spent so much time here. And others say I'm Irish because my passport is Irish.

    None of them really said i was Irish because I consider myself Irish.


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    #84
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,457 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Why does it matter where they were born, as it's lineage that proves what your biological make up is... and what your provenance is.


    A cat can have kittens in a maternity hospital but it doesn't make them human.

    That would mean that all the "irish" in america are Irish and not american. Unless you're talking genetics, in which case, are the Irish a race? If that's the case there are loads of "races" that still exist but their countries don't.


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    #85
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Well... not so much. A legal definition sure, but hardly a cultural or anything else one. My father and his brothers were born before 1922, so were technically "British citizens" and could have retained that after independence, that didn't make them British except in legal terms. The aforementioned DeValera, Collins, Connolly and Pearse weren't "Irish" either, until Irish citizenship became a legal and political entity.
    Because it's all arbitrary labels.

    Ethnicities are defined by common usage. Some people would still call themselves "Celtic", despite there being no such thing, really. It's a recognition that at some point in the past, an ancestor of yours lived in a particular place on earth.

    But that ancestor has ancestors who came from some other region. How far back do you go? Should we all just call ourselves African, really?

    Someday the last person to identify as a "Celt" will die and then it's gone. Does that mean there are no "Celts" left. No, it's just means nobody calls themselves that any more. Like there are no more Aztecs or Babylonians or Mesopotamians. Their ancestors are everywhere.

    The only firm thing we have is legal definitions of these terms. Anything else is completely arbitrary and pointless debating it. If someone born in Kuala Lumpur wants to call themselves "Celtic", they can fire away because there's no authority or any set of rules to tell them they're wrong.

    But if they want to be "Irish", they need citizenship.

    Debating what is or isn't "Irish" outside of the legal definition is the ultimate exercise in futility. You might as try to define what kind of water-filled depressions can and can't be called a puddle.


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    #86
    donegal_man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,241 ✭✭✭donegal_man


    As far as I'm concerned if you're an irish citizen, identify as Irish and your loyalty is to Ireland then you're Irish. It makes no difference whether your parents or grandparents came from Ballyhaunis or Bulawayo.


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    #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Surely if someone considers themselves to be Irish (and has the usual legal bits to back this up) then that should be good enough for anyone. Why does it have to be defined?

    as a non national, immigrant or whatever, it seems as though around 150 years ago, a group of people defined what it is to be Irish. Speaking Irish, playing hurling, listening to Irish music etc and anything else was "Foreign".

    That was fine 150 years ago, but some quarters still hang on to this and seriously need to move on.


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    #88
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Grayson wrote: »
    It kinda shows how arbitrary nationality is. I'm Irish although I was born in England.
    I've had people here call me english in the past because I was born there. Others say that because my parents are Irish I'm Irish. Others feel that because I moved here aged 4 I'm irish because i spent so much time here. And others say I'm Irish because my passport is Irish.

    None of them really said i was Irish because I consider myself Irish.

    Well you have an Irish accent I assume, so presumably English people wouldn't see you as English but Irish?

    I mean its debatable in my circumstances because my accent still remains English, but for someone like yourself it should be pretty clear cut.

    Although my parents are Irish my father was born in Canada (moved back to Ireland age 2) no one ever really calls him Canadian though.


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    #89
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    Post is way too long.
    Some people have too much time on their hands.


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    #90
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,457 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Well you have an Irish accent I assume, so presumably English people wouldn't see you as English but Irish?

    I mean its debatable in my circumstances because my accent still remains English, but for someone like yourself it should be pretty clear cut.

    Although my parents are Irish my father was born in Canada (moved back to Ireland age 2) no one ever really calls him Canadian though.

    I had meningitis when i was 4 and was partially deaf for a while afterwards. I had speech therapy as a kid. So my accent would be considered generally well pronounced. It's strange, when i met Irish people abroad they don't recognize the accent as Irish. But Foreigners do. I have english friends who tease me by getting me to say 33 :)

    I honestly think that half the time when people go on about what makes someone Irish they're trying to define a club they're part of.


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    #91
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Joking aside, it is real though, I go to England and tell people my parents are Irish and that I live in Ireland at the moment and a lot of people wont consider me as a proper English person (obviously), and a good number will go as far as calling me Irish directly.

    I don't personally consider myself English or Irish anyway. I play the role of a foreigner in both countries I guess.

    I don't think it's a binary choice necessarily. It's not just a case of Irish and Non Irish - there's any number of shades of grey in between .
    (or should that be shades of green?:D)


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