Who exactly is Irish?

logical2019

I recently had an interesting discussion with some people about this topic, they were of different opinions, I will love to get a larger perspective on this topic.

Are Irish people strictly only descendants of the Vikings and the Celtic nation?
People with an Irish accent, who have an Irish passport?
Anybody with an Irish passport, irrespective of race, religion, gender, accent?
People born in Ireland?
Strictly white people?
People who have lived in Ireland for a very long time (like 20 years, though they weren't born in Ireland)
Or some other origin not explicitly listed here?

I am not of any particular school of thought or ideology, but I wish we can come to an agreement on who exactly is Irish, you can't say someone is Irish when it suits your narrative, then decide to switch and say they are Africans, Asians, immigrants, welfare scum etc when it does not suit your narrative

I have seen this play out many times in the UK, USA, France etc
The talented youngster who plays for Tottenham and England "Dele Ali", aaah he's British, born and brought up here, he is definitely not Nigerian.

Michael Olumide Adebolajo and Michael Oluwatobi Adebowale, the Woolwich stabbers in 2013, Hey mate, you see what I am talking about, all these immigrants they are bringing into the country, who don't share the same values with us, Nigerian scums, you see the effect of multiculturalism, you liberals and snowflake will bring our downfall.

One thing to note from this 2 examples is that they were all born and brought up in the UK, why do the criminal ones have to be linked back to Africa.

Anthony Joshua the heavyweight world champion is totally British, nobody talks about his Nigerian origin, same with Leroy Sane (man city) nobody talks about his Senegalese origin, he's German- end of story, but the other people who have a similar background but may not be as popular or talented as these individuals are constantly reminded to go back to Africa, or "where are you really from" questions

Salah, mane scores for Liverpool, yeeeaah he's a beast, GOAT, better than Messi, Ahmed stabs somebody in Abbey road Liverpool, F##k all this Muslims, lol

Recently Ireland won silver at the IAAF u20 championship, and the team was made up of 3 "black Nigerians" and 1 white Irish girl, though they were all born in Ireland, I saw comments on facebook, youtube, twitter etc which were so brutal, racist and hateful towards to the black girls who represented Ireland, they were called many bad names, including "Paper Irish" (named used to describe non-white people who have an Irish passport)

What do want from immigrants?
You complain that they are lazy and are all on welfare, then the ones who are highly educated and working, are taking your jobs?

You say they don't integrate into the society, then the ones who decide to date white Irish girls or men, are taking all the Irish girls, and some of you constantly stare at interracial couples with disgust (happens in almost all counties EXCEPT Dublin), and you say to yourself "they are definitely with them for the papers or money, giving birth to non-Irish babies".

What do you really mean by integrate? to play Gaelic football, speak Gaelic, eat Irish soup and potatoes, speak and write English, Obey laws and regulations, change their Religion and denomination to Christianity and Catholic, go the Pub and drink?

I will conclude this by saying, if you want multiculturism or "immigrants" you have to get the whole baggage, you will get the neurosurgeons, IT professionals and talented sportsmen and women, and you will definitely get the scumbags, who are assholes

No society is perfect, France won the world cup yesterday with many black players, USA NFL and NBA teams are predominantly black, nobody talks about immigration or crimes committed by black people, everybody is happy when they are winning.

Scumbags come in every race/ethnicity, country of origin, height, weight, religion.

Some people constantly look at everything through race, colour, country of origin, why can't we just get along well as human race, life is already too f##ked up for almost everybody.

Disclaimer, these views are my personal views, does not represent the ideas of any race, organization or religion, and surely does not indicate what ALL Irish people do or think

Roger Hassenforder

Fcuking Vikings.
Foreign bastards rapin our wimin n plundering

The One Doctor

I can't read that.

Mutant z

Roy Keane.

sbsquarepants

Leave them Vikings alone, who doesn't love a good plunder every now and then?

Roger Hassenforder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Leave them alone, who doesn't love a good plunder every now and then?

Fcukers were around again last night in their longboat.
I've no peace. Had to hide in my round tower again.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The op seems to be a strawman.

K.Flyer

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Leave them Vikings alone, who doesn't love a good plunder every now and then?

Very hard to get a decent Plunder these days.

The Backwards Man

An Irish citizen is Irish.

sbsquarepants

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Fcukers were around again last night in their longboat.
I've no peace. Had to hide in my round tower again.

First world problems mate.


Oooh, look at me struggling to find a hiding place for all my gold and jewels!

dxhound2005

I prefer Irelander. Like people from Iceland are Icelanders. Only one letter different. Or maybe they could be called Iclish.

5rtytry56

Well, there would be different perceptions to how Irish.

Well off Ronan and Soairse will think of themselves as the daoine hoaintach in this context, together with their offspring Nollaig and Roisin:

Afterall does'nt Nollaig play on the local GAA under 8 football team, while Roisin is the captain of the under 8 comogie!
Soairse is the secretary of the local GAA club too.
They have the Irish Times delivered to their door every day, and then on Sunday, the beautiful couple buy the Sunday Times as well as the Sunday Business Post mind you.

Ronan bought an 700 euro drone, and went to this "Drone conference" where his ticket cost 300 euro, 3 years ago. He has'nt flown the thing since.
The "Sindo" is only for lower caste.

Roger Hassenforder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

First world problems mate.


Oooh, look at me struggling to find a hiding place for all my gold and jewels!

Ill have you know my peasants word hard for my plunderables.
No sitting around on their ar53s in their PJs, in their filthy mud huts, smoking fags and swilling Tenants.

greedygoblin

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Fcukers were around again last night in their longboat.
I've no peace. Had to hide in my round tower again.

The Danes. Up to their old tricks again.

Harry Palmr

There's a Long Ship parked outside Reginalds Tower, in full 'felt spec.

shakeitoff

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Well, there would be different perceptions to how Irish.

Well off Ronan and Soairse will think of themselves as the daoine hoaintach in this context, together with their offspring Nollaig and Roisin:

Afterall does'nt Nollaig play on the local GAA under 8 football team, while Roisin is the captain of the under 8 comogie!
Soairse is the secretary of the local GAA club too.
They have the Irish Times delivered to their door every day, and then on Sunday, the beautiful couple buy the Sunday Times as well as the Sunday Business Post mind you.

Ronan bought an 700 euro drone, and went to this "Drone conference" where his ticket cost 300 euro, 3 years ago. He has'nt flown the thing since.
The "Sindo" is only for lower caste.

I hate everything about that fictional family.

aidoh

logical2019 wrote: »

What do you really mean by integrate? to play Gaelic football, speak Gaelic, eat Irish soup and potatoes, speak and write English, Obey laws and regulations, change their Religion and denomination to Christianity and Catholic, go the Pub and drink?

I will conclude this by saying, if you want multiculturism or "immigrants" you have to get the whole baggage, you will get the neurosurgeons, IT professionals and talented sportsmen and women, and you will definitely get the scumbags, who are assholes

I suppose that's one of the problems with multiculturalism, isn't it? It often gets confounded with a multi-ethnic or multi-racial society.

No one has an axe to grind with anyone else on the basis of some trait like skin colour etc., (multiracial), rather tensions mainly come about when there is a lack of integration i.e. where some cultural groups wish to put the values and customs of their country / religion of origin above the values and customs of their host/ new home nation (multiculturalism).

Maybe it's rightfully so too, since societies of all colours etc. ought to run more smoothly if every person involved enters into a shared set of cultural values and norms regardless of the "whole baggage" that comes with the territory.

logical2019

aidoh wrote: »

I suppose that's one of the problems with multiculturalism, isn't it? It often gets confounded with a multi-ethnic or multi-racial society.

No one has an axe to grind with anyone else on the basis of some trait like skin colour etc., (multiracial), rather tensions mainly come about when there is a lack of integration i.e. where some cultural groups wish to put the values and customs of their country / religion of origin above the values and customs of their host/ new home nation (multiculturalism).

Maybe it's rightfully so too, since societies of all colours etc. ought to run more smoothly if every person involved enters into a shared set of cultural values and norms regardless of the "whole baggage" that comes with the territory.

You made perfect sense
Though when you said "where some cultural groups wish to put the values and customs of their country/religion of origin above the values and customs of their host/ new home nation"

It depends on the extent or situation, I don't think an Irish immigrant in USA is expected to always put the values of America above his personal values which maybe Irish oriented
There are basic human values, though this is highly subjected as we are so different in terms of culture and norms, I have been to a place where people eat dogs, cat, and it's perfectly normal, though this will be considered as an abomination

We have to understand that it is difficult to isolate the "whole baggage" from a culture, we can try, but there will still be traces

shakeitoff

aidoh wrote: »

I suppose that's one of the problems with multiculturalism, isn't it? It often gets confounded with a multi-ethnic or multi-racial society.

No one has an axe to grind with anyone else on the basis of some trait like skin colour etc., (multiracial), rather tensions mainly come about when there is a lack of integration i.e. where some cultural groups wish to put the values and customs of their country / religion of origin above the values and customs of their host/ new home nation (multiculturalism).

Maybe it's rightfully so too, since societies of all colours etc. ought to run more smoothly if every person involved enters into a shared set of cultural values and norms regardless of the "whole baggage" that comes with the territory.

America was pretty successful when it came to integration especially with it's European immigrants. They all bought into what it meant to be American and largely left behind the ways of their home countries. They obviously kept up some traditions but in general an American of German, Polish, Irish, English or Italian extraction will have bought into the American way. While the poster before dismissed the idea of the GAA or eating potatoes, immigrants in America embraced the idea of baseball and apple pie.

Billy86

aidoh wrote: »

No one has an axe to grind with anyone else on the basis of some trait like skin colour etc., (multiracial),

Hi there, and welcome to after hours. I assume this is your first visit?

aidoh

Billy86 wrote: »

Hi there, and welcome to after hours. I assume this is your first visit?

Well, I assume no one (in their right mind) would be dumb enough to be that shallow but the interwebs are definitely full of all sorts

mikemac2

logical2019 wrote: »

What do want from immigrants?

You complain that they are lazy and are all on welfare, then the ones who are highly educated and working, are taking your jobs?

You say they don't integrate into the society,

What do you really mean by integrate?

I will conclude this by saying, if you want multiculturism or "immigrants"

Whom are you addressing OP? The posters here?

Anyway we got useless immigrants, the dregs. Gort full of Brazilians and ne’er a footballer among them. Galway United relegated

AlphaOmega1

mikemac2 wrote: »

Anyway we got useless immigrants, the dregs. Gort full of Brazilians and ne’er a footballer among them. Galway United relegated

big facts, Bray is full of them. Yeah sure you came here to improve your English but is there any chance you could show the bray wanderers a few bits?

fishy_fishy

I honestly think youre not culturally Irish if you haven't grown up here, or grown up abroad to Irish raised parent(s) and moved back here before mid teens.

Legally whatever it says on your passport, that bit's obvious, but its not that clear cut culturally. You might be culturally much closer to England, or the USA, or Nigeria, or Turkey if that's where your parents were born and raised, because they're the cultures that influence how your parents raised you. As you get older, those links might weaken and you become more Irish.

I try to think of it like relatives in the states. They've lived there decades, kinda still consider themselves Irish. They're American citizens. So really the definition of Irish Americans. Their grandkids are American. Clear and simple. The 2nd generation - i.e. the parents of the grandkids - well, they're American. But had they all moved back here by their early teens...? They'd probably be more Irish.

mikemac2

If Mossad travel on Irish passports on their assassination trips does that make them Irish?

jcorr

You're only Irish if you're born here and lived here all your life and at least one of your parents is also Irish, who also was born here and lived here their whole life...

Anything else and you're just a foreigner with Irish PR/passport.

dd972

jcorr wrote: »

You're only Irish if you're born here and lived here all your life and at least one of your parents is also Irish, who also was born here and lived here their whole life...

Anything else and you're just a foreigner with Irish PR/passport.

By that logic David O'Leary, Phil Lynott and Paul McGrath aren't Irish, this is especially the case when the country just east of Wales and south of Scotland is involved, in fact for some you could be born there, taken back an hour later on the next Aer Lingus by your Irish parents and never leave your village again, and still be 'not Irish'.

ohnonotgmail

jcorr wrote: »

You're only Irish if you're born here and lived here all your life and at least one of your parents is also Irish, who also was born here and lived here their whole life...

Anything else and you're just a foreigner with Irish PR/passport.

By that definition my oldest brother isn't irish. Your definition sucks.

OldGoat

jcorr wrote: »

You're only Irish if you're born here and lived here all your life and at least one of your parents is also Irish, who also was born here and lived here their whole life...

Anything else and you're just a foreigner with Irish PR/passport.

I lived abroad for a while however BOTH my parents are Irish. Can I balance one trait against the other to keep me being Irish?

Zebra3

shakeitoff wrote: »

America was pretty successful when it came to integration .[\quote]

If you ignore the genocide against the natives and the slavery, lynchings and long running supremacist laws and attitudes towards Africans and their descendants......

Badly Drunk Boy

logical2019 wrote: »

Who exactly is Irish?

Eh...I am.

Pinch Flat

Someone who knows the importance of an immersion and not leaving it on

The Backwards Man

The Backwards Man wrote: »

An Irish citizen is Irish.

So the concept of being 'Irish' was formed in 1922 with the founding of the Free State, in your view?

MadDog76

Born and raised here to two parents who were also born and raised here who in turn had two parents each that were also born and raised here...... that's my definition of who's truly Irish and no amount of debate, discussion or "what about so and so" nonsense will change my mind.

biko

A person that by himself, and others, is considered Irish, is Irish.

People often have difficulty defining themselves, so it can help if you instead consider someone else - Nigerian, Italian, Palestinian.
What makes them their nationality?
Can whatever that is be said about you?

Language?
Mannerism?
Attitude towards life?


Consider the things below, do you share these with your friends and family?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

RobbingBandit

Tuatha Dé Danann the rest of yiz can feck off home where ever that may be but it's not here that be fir shure.

Ipso

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Tuatha Dé Danann the rest of yiz can feck off home where ever that may be but it's not here that be fir shure.

My Milesian ancestors knocked your fops back into the Sidhe.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Nationality is a nothing more than a artificial political construct.

corner of hells

MadDog76 wrote: »

Born and raised here to two parents who were also born and raised here who in turn had two parents each that were also born and raised here...... that's my definition of who's truly Irish and no amount of debate, discussion or "what about so and so" nonsense will change my mind.

I've Scottish grandparents , she has London born Jewish grandparents ,

My kids therefore are of Scottish Jewish descent , the meanest people alive .

When Mossad calls......

Losty Dublin

The One Doctor wrote: »

I can't read that.

I envy you muchly.

nthclare

The most pure DNA of Irish origin is supposedly the Kilnaboy area Co Clare...

It's peppered with wedge tombs, ringforts etc

Supposedly the local DNA matches very well with DNA samples from local excavations.

OhHiMark

fishy_fishy wrote: »

I honestly think youre not culturally Irish if you haven't grown up here, or grown up abroad to Irish raised parent(s) and moved back here before mid teens.

Legally whatever it says on your passport, that bit's obvious, but its not that clear cut culturally. You might be culturally much closer to England, or the USA, or Nigeria, or Turkey if that's where your parents were born and raised, because they're the cultures that influence how your parents raised you. As you get older, those links might weaken and you become more Irish.

I try to think of it like relatives in the states. They've lived there decades, kinda still consider themselves Irish. They're American citizens. So really the definition of Irish Americans. Their grandkids are American. Clear and simple. The 2nd generation - i.e. the parents of the grandkids - well, they're American. But had they all moved back here by their early teens...? They'd probably be more Irish.

If somebody grows up in Somalia until they're 20 and then moves to Ireland for 40 years they'll be very culturally Irish.

Jack Moore

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Well, there would be different perceptions to how Irish.

Well off Ronan and Soairse will think of themselves as the daoine hoaintach in this context, together with their offspring Nollaig and Roisin:

Afterall does'nt Nollaig play on the local GAA under 8 football team, while Roisin is the captain of the under 8 comogie!
Soairse is the secretary of the local GAA club too.
They have the Irish Times delivered to their door every day, and then on Sunday, the beautiful couple buy the Sunday Times as well as the Sunday Business Post mind you.

Ronan bought an 700 euro drone, and went to this "Drone conference" where his ticket cost 300 euro, 3 years ago. He has'nt flown the thing since.
The "Sindo" is only for lower caste.

Saoirse Ronan lol

donegal_man

MadDog76 wrote: »

Born and raised here to two parents who were also born and raised here who in turn had two parents each that were also born and raised here...... that's my definition of who's truly Irish and no amount of debate, discussion or "what about so and so" nonsense will change my mind.

Well that eliminates some of the most prominent Irish people of the last two centuries including Eamonn de Valera (born in New York to an Irish mother and a Spanish father), Patrick Pearse (English father), James Connolly (born in Edinburgh and apparently had a Scottish accent) and many many others.

I remember reading the "Richard Kearney" book- "The Irish Mind" many years ago and it opened my eyes to a few things at the time.

He's a great writer and worth exploring. I don't think you're going to answer the question with one response but search out the authors who have studied this question and written their thoughts.

I googled him this evening and found a few videos- one link below from 2013

Not sure if the videos add anything to the debate but would recommend his book "The Irish Mind" even as a starting point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9lx_sYzMjc

fishy_fishy

OhHiMark wrote: »

fishy_fishy wrote: »

I honestly think youre not culturally Irish if you haven't grown up here, or grown up abroad to Irish raised parent(s) and moved back here before mid teens.

Legally whatever it says on your passport, that bit's obvious, but its not that clear cut culturally. You might be culturally much closer to England, or the USA, or Nigeria, or Turkey if that's where your parents were born and raised, because they're the cultures that influence how your parents raised you. As you get older, those links might weaken and you become more Irish.

I try to think of it like relatives in the states. They've lived there decades, kinda still consider themselves Irish. They're American citizens. So really the definition of Irish Americans. Their grandkids are American. Clear and simple. The 2nd generation - i.e. the parents of the grandkids - well, they're American. But had they all moved back here by their early teens...? They'd probably be more Irish.

If somebody grows up in Somalia until they're 20 and then moves to Ireland for 40 years they'll be very culturally Irish.

Do you really think so? I think they'll be Irish-ish. But spending all your formative years somewhere so vastly different is guaranteed to mean you've cultural differences.

Now, if that person was born to Irish parents and raised in an ex-pat community attending an international school... I might agree with you. But a Somali raised by Somali parents isn't culturally Irish just because they move here as an adult. They'll be like the Irish Americans. Not quite born and bred apple pie eating yanks, but moved on quite a bit from the cupan tae and coddle Irish.

Being Irish, or French, or German or English or anything else is much more than the passport you hold. It's all the values and culture and customs and everything else you were raised with. And that sort of thing roots deeper in childhood. Much deeper.

wakka12

Anyone who's an Irish citizen is Irish , your own opinion of what you consider Irish doesn't hold much water beyond that

YFlyer

Recently Ireland won silver at the IAAF u20 championship, and the team was made up of 3 "black Nigerians" and 1 white Irish girl, though they were all born in Ireland, I saw comments on facebook, youtube, twitter etc which were so brutal, racist and hateful towards to the black girls who represented Ireland, they were called many bad names, including "Paper Irish" (named used to describe non-white people who have an Irish passport)
nk [/B][/quote]

That was the semi final.

OhHiMark

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Do you really think so? I think they'll be Irish-ish. But spending all your formative years somewhere so vastly different is guaranteed to mean you've cultural differences.

Now, if that person was born to Irish parents and raised in an ex-pat community attending an international school... I might agree with you. But a Somali raised by Somali parents isn't culturally Irish just because they move here as an adult. They'll be like the Irish Americans. Not quite born and bred apple pie eating yanks, but moved on quite a bit from the cupan tae and coddle Irish.

Being Irish, or French, or German or English or anything else is much more than the passport you hold. It's all the values and culture and customs and everything else you were raised with. And that sort of thing roots deeper in childhood. Much deeper.

Well really why I was thinking is, what does culturally irish mean? If someone raises their child in America solely the way they'd be raised in Ireland, same school curriculum and all, only exposed to other children raised the same way, are they more Irish to you? Culturally Irish is a myth I think, what is Irish is changing all the time. You ask Irish Americans what it means to be Irish and they'll tell you about the old country. Because we've moved on. And we'll continue to move on and some of the people who move on with us will be from other countries, and we'll embrace that and they'll be part of what being Irish is in the future.

fishy_fishy

wakka12 wrote: »

Anyone who's an Irish citizen is Irish , your own opinion of what you consider Irish doesn't hold much water beyond that

That kind of talk is silly though.

We have a culture. It's worth protecting. It's worth recognisng that African drumming or Swiss yodeling isn't part of it and that people can very much be culturally Irish without holdimg an Irish passport (plenty of Irish people hold UK or USA passports), and conversely, someome who holds an Irish passport can very much be culturally not Irish or a mix of cultures.

There's a particular breed of ultra left leaning multiculturalism that pushes the idea that anyone who comes to a country can bring their former country's cultures and we should adapt and recognise them as new parts of our culture. That only puts noses out of joint and fosters a sense of being a guest in your own country. We have a culture. If you haven't been raised with that, but you move here, you're probably straddling several cultures. But it does a disservice to ALL cultures to say someone is Irish or anything else based purely off their passport. There's more to life than a legal document.