Golf marketing gone too far!

eoghan104 · 13-07-2018 8:35am

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Derek Zoolander · 13-07-2018 8:38am

eoghan104 wrote: »

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Its pretty crazy alright how they would allow that with the golf course crisis that we have at the moment and loads of idle housing stock sitting there....

eoghan104 · 13-07-2018 8:50am

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

Its pretty crazy alright how they would allow that with the golf course crisis that we have at the moment and loads of idle housing stock sitting there....

Thanks for the smart response!

I do get that we have a housing crisis so I am conflicted. I am buying a house myself right now and it's a pain in the hole.

Do you think the houses they would build in Castleknock are the type of houses that we need though?! I doubt it.

prawnsambo · 13-07-2018 8:57am

eoghan104 wrote: »

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Two that spring to mind are Dun Laoighaire and Bray Golf Clubs. Although Bray's original location has still not been built on due to planning problems with the fact that it sits on a flood plain.

eoghan104 · 13-07-2018 9:06am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Two that spring to mind are Dun Laoighaire and Bray Golf Clubs. Although Bray's original location has still not been built on due to planning problems with the fact that it sits on a flood plain.

Yeah I was a member in Bray when we moved. That is why I specifically said "where a new course hasn't been built". Bray got a great deal on the move and Dun Laoghire got a better one.

What I mean is, are there any examples where a club has been re-zoned and members just told to feck off!

prawnsambo · 13-07-2018 9:15am

eoghan104 wrote: »

Yeah I was a member in Bray when we moved. That is why I specifically said "where a new course hasn't been built". Bray got a great deal on the move and Dun Laoghire got a better one.

What I mean is, are there any examples where a club has been re-zoned and members just told to feck off!

Well most clubs are member owned, so there'd be no telling them to feck off. It's with the post-NAMA clubs where the members have no say and no ownership, that the fecking off can be employed.

Derek Zoolander · 13-07-2018 9:34am

eoghan104 wrote: »

Thanks for the smart response!

I do get that we have a housing crisis so I am conflicted. I am buying a house myself right now and it's a pain in the hole.

Do you think the houses they would build in Castleknock are the type of houses that we need though?! I doubt it.

Any incremental stock will cause some movement in the market which should see a trickle down effect to starter homes... be it from upsizing or downsizing.

Do you think we really need to protect company owned golf courses - there are more than enough golf courses in the area to service the need.

PARlance · 13-07-2018 9:43am

eoghan104 wrote: »

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

I'm not sure how easy or hard it is but in today's climate, I'm guessing it will be as easy as it ever will be. Particularly for courses in and around Dublin.

Just to clarify, the land in Hollystown has already been rezoned and subject to relatively minor conditions.

The same company own Castleknock, a property delevoper so their intentions are fairly clear. But they seem to look at Castleknock as a longer term development... probably because they haven't got it rezoned yet and may not in the short term.

Seve OB · 13-07-2018 9:44am

eoghan104 wrote: »

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Luttrelstown.

Oh wait, maybe that was a bad idea

PARlance · 13-07-2018 9:49am

eoghan104 wrote: »

Thanks for the smart response!

I do get that we have a housing crisis so I am conflicted. I am buying a house myself right now and it's a pain in the hole.

Do you think the houses they would build in Castleknock are the type of houses that we need though?! I doubt it.

The houses planned for Holystown are classed as "starter homes", we don't know of any plans for Castleknock but they may be the same... or slightly more exclusive stater homes would be my guess. The margins are high on such homes and if they can get enough of them in, it could be the way to go. They mentioned that the cost to build in Hollystown would be ~€62,000 which seems incredibly low but leaves massive margin.

Seve OB · 13-07-2018 9:50am

PARlance wrote: »

Stories differ but Glenveagh have already given us their story. I would go with the one they've given investors / the stock market.

"Glenveagh has also signed an unconditional legal contract to acquire a major site in Hollystown, Dublin 15. The 162-acre site is occupied by Hollystown Golf Club who will continue on a business as usual basis, with 19 acres on the site zoned for residential development and the remainder zoned as open space. Glenveagh estimates that it will deliver 200 family homes on the residential development land between 2019 and 2023, subject to planning."

These lads aren't interested in keeping a golf course in Hollystown into the future.

So that kinda of backs up my point and mutes yours. They have 19 out of 162 acres zoned for houses and the rest has to stay as open spaces.

PARlance · 13-07-2018 9:56am

Seve OB wrote: »

So that kinda of backs up my point and mutes yours. They have 19 out of 162 acres zoned for houses and the rest has to stay as open spaces.

Yes but I'm not sure they would get 200 homes, a football pitch and clubhouse in the 19 acres? I can't see the golf course coming out the other side of it.

Edit: from another article, all development will be in that small pocket of land... for now.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/glenveagh-pitching-for-hollystown-golf-club-takeover-030hq620p
"The 20 acres were rezoned for residential development in 2016 with the stipulation that the lands accommodate a GAA pitch and clubhouse.

The golf course is still zoned as amenity lands. Sources say that Glenveagh may be buying the golf club as a long-term redevelopment prospect."

Seve OB · 13-07-2018 10:01am

PARlance wrote: »

Yes but I'm not sure they would get 200 homes, a football pitch and clubhouse in the 19 acres? I can't see the golf course coming out the other side of it.

I'm no expert bit the way they build houses on top of each other these days I would say that will be easy

Also no expert on land size for golf courses but if they currently have 162 acres and 27 holes, simple maths says keeping 18 holes on a remaining 143 acres will be easy and so what if they do have to loose a few more acres

PARlance · 13-07-2018 10:04am

Seve OB wrote: »

I'm no expert bit the way they build houses on top of each other these days I would say that will be easy

Also no expert on land size for golf courses but if they currently have 162 acres and 27 holes, simple maths says keeping 18 holes on a remaining 143 acres will be easy and so what if they do have to loose a few more acres

Ya, just added more detail to previous post. It will all be crammed into the 19/20 acres. But I wouldn't be too hopeful for the course tbh. They only really want to do one thing. Build houses to make money for investors.

charlieIRL · 13-07-2018 10:07am

Any new housing development over 100 houses goes straight to An Bord Pleanala and not submitted to the local authority for decision. Its taking nearly 12 months to get a decision from the Bord now so doubt there'll be an development any time soon (Unless they apply for a lesser amount of units in phases)

The average markup on a house is 30% as well but this being Ireland, its probably much higher now.

eoghan104 · 13-07-2018 10:23am

Basically what I am reading is that nothing will happen for a while anyway!

Russman · 13-07-2018 10:32am

PARlance wrote: »

Ya, just added more detail to previous post. It will all be crammed into the 19/20 acres. But I wouldn't be too hopeful for the course tbh. They only really want to do one thing. Build houses to make money for investors.

All those homes, plus a GAA pitch & clubhouse (presumably with some parking) in 19/20 acres seems a little ambitious, but I'm no expert.
Agree though that in the long term, the golf course would seem to have a big X on its back. You would think a company called Glenveagh Properties would have little interest in running a golf course, its just not in their core business IMO.

prawnsambo · 13-07-2018 1:14pm

Russman wrote: »

All those homes, plus a GAA pitch & clubhouse (presumably with some parking) in 19/20 acres seems a little ambitious, but I'm no expert.
Agree though that in the long term, the golf course would seem to have a big X on its back. You would think a company called Glenveagh Properties would have little interest in running a golf course, its just not in their core business IMO.

I think that 12-13 houses per acre is about normal these days. So allowing for two or three acres to be set aside for GAA grounds, clubhouse and carpark, that would leave you with roughly enough ground for the 200 houses based on that density.

Derek Zoolander · 13-07-2018 2:16pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that 12-13 houses per acre is about normal these days. So allowing for two or three acres to be set aside for GAA grounds, clubhouse and carpark, that would leave you with roughly enough ground for the 200 houses based on that density.

that's 21M profit based on 200 house at 350k with a 35% gross margin

charlieIRL · 13-07-2018 2:37pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that 12-13 houses per acre is about normal these days. So allowing for two or three acres to be set aside for GAA grounds, clubhouse and carpark, that would leave you with roughly enough ground for the 200 houses based on that density.

You'll get up to 15 houses per acre.

prawnsambo · 13-07-2018 2:39pm

charlieIRL wrote: »

You'll get up to 15 houses per acre.

I think that only comes with higher density models though. Like townhouses.

Keano · 13-07-2018 3:09pm

Are my in the golf or construction forum ?!!

Russman · 13-07-2018 3:26pm

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

that's 21M profit based on 200 house at 350k with a 35% gross margin

If the purchase price of the land was c€15m as reported in one of the articles, it doesn't leave a whole lot (in relative terms) of gravy left over though ? A property/development company that size would hardly buy a golf course and not build on it, would they ? What sort of revenue would the club generate for them annually ?

GreeBo · 13-07-2018 3:33pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that only comes with higher density models though. Like townhouses.

Dont most new developments compromise 3 storey houses anyway these days?

prawnsambo · 13-07-2018 3:37pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Dont most new developments compromise 3 storey houses anyway these days?

Usually a mixture. But it often depends on site costs and location.

charlieIRL · 13-07-2018 4:09pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that only comes with higher density models though. Like townhouses.

Not always. You can cram in semi-d's. Open space & Irish water is a big issue. Don't get agreement from IW prior to planning and you aren't going anywhere!!

Anyway, we're drifting here, lets leave the building at that.

Seve OB · 13-07-2018 6:38pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that only comes with higher density models though. Like townhouses.

And that is exactly what they will build. All the house that hace gone up recently in d15 are the same, duplexes, houses on top of each other, glorified terraces, apartments, f all space for gardens, most don't even have a proper driveway to park your car on.

prawnsambo · 13-07-2018 8:33pm

Seve OB wrote: »

And that is exactly what they will build. All the house that hace gone up recently in d15 are the same, duplexes, houses on top of each other, glorified terraces, apartments, f all space for gardens, most don't even have a proper driveway to park your car on.

The numbers and acrage say otherwise. It could be over 500 units if they adopted the model you describe.

Anyway, as Charlie says, we're way OT.

Golf marketing gone too far!

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