Golf marketing gone too far!

leinstergolf

So i'm new to boards but I saw something at the weekend which I just had to share on a public forum as I think it's absolutely disgraceful.

I'm a member of Hollystown Golf Club and am well aware of the talk surrounding our future because of the recent takeover, but for another club to think it was appropriate to come into our car park on a Sunday and place flyers on cars and in our locker rooms promoting their membership was an absolute disgrace!!!

I don't know what golf club committee would have though something like this was a good idea?!?

I wont mention the club but the flyer read ;

"Looking for somewhere new to play your golf?

Try us out for FREE ......."

I know for sure that many of us who found these flyers on our cars on Sunday would rather give up the game than consider joining a "Club" who thinks it's ok to do something like that!

I'd like to think the members of this club are ashamed and embarrassed that their committee would use these sort of tactics.

I'm all for competition and marketing the services offered by Clubs, but there is a line and they've crossed it. Way to make your club look desperate.

Rant over.

Barnaboy

Couldn't agree more, shameful promotion. Why don't you report them to the GUI? Are your club taking it further?

leinstergolf

Our club has reported it to the GUI but realistically what will be done about it?We're well aware it could have been a "rogue member" who decided upon his/herself to put them there (and i'm sure that's what they'll say), but the nature of the flyer very much felt it was targeted and made for the specific purpose.

Johnk16

Wow..... talk about dirty tactics. Name and shame? Intrigued to know what club.....

fred funk }{

leinstergolf wrote: »

So i'm new to boards but I saw something at the weekend which I just had to share on a public forum as I think it's absolutely disgraceful.

I'm a member of Hollystown Golf Club and am well aware of the talk surrounding our future because of the recent takeover, but for another club to think it was appropriate to come into our car park on a Sunday and place flyers on cars and in our locker rooms promoting their membership was an absolute disgrace!!!

I don't know what golf club committee would have though something like this was a good idea?!?

I wont mention the club but the flyer read ;

"Looking for somewhere new to play your golf?

Try us out for FREE ......."

I know for sure that many of us who found these flyers on our cars on Sunday would rather give up the game than consider joining a "Club" who thinks it's ok to do something like that!

I'd like to think the members of this club are ashamed and embarrassed that their committee would use these sort of tactics.

I'm all for competition and marketing the services offered by Clubs, but there is a line and they've crossed it. Way to make your club look desperate.

Rant over.

If I remember correctly, Hollystown offered free golf to members of Christy O'Connor GC (who played out of Sillogue) when they were in trouble to entice them to go there.

charlieIRL

Johnk16 wrote: »

Wow..... talk about dirty tactics. Name and shame? Intrigued to know what club.....

Under no circumstances is the offending club to be named here

eoghan104

charlieIRL wrote: »

Under no circumstances is the offending club to be named here

Why?!!

Dbu

charlieIRL wrote: »

Under no circumstances is the offending club to be named here

I dont see any issue with the club being named, especially if there is a physical evidence of a flyer? No?

eoghan104

Dbu wrote: »

I dont see any issue with the club being named, especially if there is a physical evidence of a flyer? No?

Exactly, complete over reaction. It was a public marketing event!

kiers47

From a Boards stand point i dont see how people dont see the issue with the club being named. As the OP said it could have been a rogue member who took it upon himself to gather interest without the blessing of the club or the rest of the committee and members. If this was the case then naming the club is not going to do anyone any good in the slightest.

Russman

kiers47 wrote: »

From a Boards stand point i dont see how people dont see the issue with the club being named. As the OP said it could have been a rogue member who took it upon himself to gather interest without the blessing of the club or the rest of the committee and members. If this was the case then naming the club is not going to do anyone any good in the slightest.

I'd you'll almost certainly find it was a rogue member, or that's what a club would say. The old "plausible deniability". Part of me thinks there's no way a committee would agree to something like that, and part of me thinks there's no way it could happen without the club knowing.

To be honest its a shocking thing to do, whether officially sanctioned or not, really scraping the bottom of the barrel IMO.

kiers47

Russman wrote: »

I'd you'll almost certainly find it was a rogue member, or that's what a club would say. The old "plausible deniability". Part of me thinks there's no way a committee would agree to something like that, and part of me thinks there's no way it could happen without the club knowing.

To be honest its a shocking thing to do, whether officially sanctioned or not, really scraping the bottom of the barrel IMO.

Oh yes it is for sure a deplorable action and whoever sanctioned it should be called out by members of that club. Personally if my club done that id be absolutely disgusted.

However i do agree with Charlie no good can come from the club being "named and shamed" on here.

charlieIRL

eoghan104 wrote: »

Why?!!

Dbu wrote: »

I dont see any issue with the club being named, especially if there is a physical evidence of a flyer? No?

What do ye want to do? Go off on a witch hunt of the offending club?
Next thing the story starts spreading from some lad who read it on boards, stories get distorted but they remember...it was on boards etc. We're not putting our neck on the block here thanks. Think about it.

Eoinyh

leinstergolf wrote: »

So i'm new to boards but I saw something at the weekend which I just had to share on a public forum as I think it's absolutely disgraceful.

I'm a member of Hollystown Golf Club and am well aware of the talk surrounding our future because of the recent takeover, but for another club to think it was appropriate to come into our car park on a Sunday and place flyers on cars and in our locker rooms promoting their membership was an absolute disgrace!!!

I don't know what golf club committee would have though something like this was a good idea?!?

I wont mention the club but the flyer read ;

"Looking for somewhere new to play your golf?

Try us out for FREE ......."

I know for sure that many of us who found these flyers on our cars on Sunday would rather give up the game than consider joining a "Club" who thinks it's ok to do something like that!

I'd like to think the members of this club are ashamed and embarrassed that their committee would use these sort of tactics.

I'm all for competition and marketing the services offered by Clubs, but there is a line and they've crossed it. Way to make your club look desperate.

Rant over.

if there is speculation that the your clubs land will be developed on, another club has tried to attract new members, don't see what your problem is. Did the other club bye your club or something?

Golf 247

charlieIRL wrote: »

What do ye want to do? Go off on a witch hunt of the offending club?
Next thing the story starts spreading from some lad who read it on boards, stories get distorted but they remember...it was on boards etc. We're not putting our neck on the block here thanks. Think about it.

Stop been the over protective father. So what if people want to go on a witch hunt. A despicable act was committed. The norm of society is to go after such ill practice to discourage it from happening again. Bad press deserves bad pr.

spacecoyote

Golf 247 wrote: »

Stop been the over protective father. So what if people want to go on a witch hunt. A despicable act was committed. The norm of society is to go after such ill practice to discourage it from happening again. Bad press deserves bad pr.

If you still want to have boards around to have these discussions you might want to try avoid getting the site involved in a slander case

Atlantic Dawn

Advertising flyers
If you plan to distribute advertising leaflets in the street, you should first check with the local authority to see if there are any local litter restrictions. It is illegal to place advertising leaflets on car windscreens.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/litter_law.html

Spideog Rua

spacecoyote wrote: »

If you still want to have boards around to have these discussions you might want to try avoid getting the site involved in a slander case

You mean defamation. Also, it is not defamation if it is true.

It could also be suggested that because the statement does not name any club directly, that all clubs have been defamed. Funny twist

PokeHerKing

Golf 247 wrote:

Stop been the over protective father. So what if people want to go on a witch hunt. A despicable act was committed. The norm of society is to go after such ill practice to discourage it from happening again. Bad press deserves bad pr.

Despicable act?? Give over will you. A business trying to make money. Ohhh the shock horror of it all.

Ollieboy

I was pretty shock when I heard about this as Hollystown as change ownership and closing 9 holes but never said they were fully closing down. For a members club to do this is very low and I can’t imagine the members been pleased either.

This action had to be support by the committee of the club due to the steps involved.

I just hope for the club involved, that Hollystown don’t go to war with them as they have very deep pockets compared to the club involved and the new owners of Hollystown and could easily buy the other club and just close it for fun or target their membership.

I reckon this story as loads more to run yet. I believe the GUI are involved but not sure what action they can take seen they are bloody useless.

GreeBo

Ollieboy wrote: »

I just hope for the club involved, that Hollystown don’t go to war with them as they have very deep pockets compared to the club involved and the new owners of Hollystown and could easily buy the other club and just close it for fun or target their membership.

I reckon this story as loads more to run yet. I believe the GUI are involved but not sure what action they can take seen they are bloody useless.

You've been watching too much Billions tbh.

Golf 247

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Despicable act?? Give over will you. A business trying to make money. Ohhh the shock horror of it all.

Every business try’s to make money. Some do it in a tasteful manner, others distasteful. Fact of life. My opinion is this is despicable. If you think otherwise, all credit to your morale standards.

I am expressing my opinion on their policy of profit.

I guess that human trafficking business is ok after all. Hey once they are making money. Go team!

PokeHerKing

Golf 247 wrote: »

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Despicable act?? Give over will you. A business trying to make money. Ohhh the shock horror of it all.

Every business try’s to make money. Some do it in a tasteful manner, others distasteful. Fact of life.  My opinion is this is despicable. If you think otherwise, all credit to your morale standards.

I am expressing my opinion on their policy of profit.

I guess that human trafficking business is ok after all. Hey once they are making money. Go team!

I think the above bolded bit confirms how off the wall your opinion on this is. Comparing it to human trafficking?
Crikey.

bailey99

Fairly over protective and dictatorship style ordering of not naming the club. Are you afraid of being sued? All the poster need do it have a flyer and he's protected. Calm down there Charlie lad.

prawnsambo

bailey99 wrote: »

Fairly over protective and dictatorship style ordering of not naming the club. Are you afraid of being sued? All the poster need do it have a flyer and he's protected. Calm down there Charlie lad.

How easy is it to produce such a flyer? It could have been done by anyone and to defend a case in court, you'd have to have a bit more evidence than a flyer that may or may not have even been sanctioned by the club concerned. Why would you risk it?

IITYWYBMAD

prawnsambo wrote: »

How easy is it to produce such a flyer? It could have been done by anyone and to defend a case in court, you'd have to have a bit more evidence than a flyer that may or may not have even been sanctioned by the club concerned. Why would you risk it?

If I'm correct about the club in question, they have been doing quite a bit of marketing in the area over the last while. I've had 2 (unsolicited) emails from them in the past 10 days inviting me out for a "FREE" game of golf. I used to be a member there, and left in not so great circumstances, so it would be the last place I'd consider playing golf in at the moment to be honest.

prawnsambo

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

If I'm correct about the club in question, they have been doing quite a bit of marketing in the area over the last while. I've had 2 (unsolicited) emails from them in the past 10 days inviting me out for a "FREE" game of golf. I used to be a member there, and left in not so great circumstances, so it would be the last place I'd consider playing golf in at the moment to be honest.

Well you can ask them to remove you from their mailing list. GDPR and all that.

Seve OB

From conversations I've had with people in the know, it appears that the plan for Hollystown is most certainly not to fold in any way shape or form. At worst, they may loose 9 holes....worst case!

As for the allegations made above, I've now heard the same story from a few sources and totally believe them. Not exactly a neighbouring club either, a good 20-25 minutes drive up the road

Ollieboy

Seve OB wrote: »

From conversations I've had with people in the know, it appears that the plan for Hollystown is most certainly not to fold in any way shape or form. At worst, they may loose 9 holes....worst case!

As for the allegations made above, I've now heard the same story from a few sources and totally believe them. Not exactly a neighbouring club either, a good 20-25 minutes drive up the road

The 9 holes as already been purchased by CPO by the council for new football pitched for the new schools and some social housing and they are closing the 9 hole this season, that is definite.

The new owners have already reported to the stock market that they want to develop the rest for housing but they need to rezone it first which could take 5 years but they will definitely try to get it rezone and that is also their plan for Castleknock which they also own and also report.

The reason so many members are now leaving is due to lack of consulting with the members before selling out, but it's privately own business and they didn't have too. They also stopped investing in the place during the sale which never helps.

Seve OB

Ollieboy wrote: »

The 9 holes as already been purchased by CPO by the council for new football pitched for the new schools and some social housing and they are closing the 9 hole this season, that is definite.

The new owners have already reported to the stock market that they want to develop the rest for housing but they need to rezone it first which could take 5 years but they will definitely try to get it rezone and that is also their plan for Castleknock which they also own and also report.

The reason so many members are now leaving is due to lack of consulting with the members before selling out, but it's privately own business and they didn't have too. They also stopped investing in the place during the sale which never helps.

Stories differ. Apparently they have other land in and around the course which they plan to build houses on. Make it kind of like a community. Houses on a golf course will fetch a higher price. In theory makes sense, but maybe wrong location and no offence to hollystown, wrong golf course. They could then look at building on 9 holes. That's more or less what I've heard. Wasn't aware of any cpo re football pitches etc.

Anyway, none of that really matters. What that other club did is rotten to the core.

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

Stories differ. Apparently they have other land in and around the course which they plan to build houses on. Make it kind of like a community. Houses on a golf course will fetch a higher price. In theory makes sense, but maybe wrong location and no offence to hollystown, wrong golf course. They could then look at building on 9 holes. That's more or less what I've heard. Wasn't aware of any cpo re football pitches etc.

Anyway, none of that really matters. What that other club did is rotten to the core.

Stories differ but Glenveagh have already given us their story. I would go with the one they've given investors / the stock market.

From Jan of this year. There are plenty of articles out there on it:

"Glenveagh has also signed an unconditional legal contract to acquire a major site in Hollystown, Dublin 15. The 162-acre site is occupied by Hollystown Golf Club who will continue on a business as usual basis, with 19 acres on the site zoned for residential development and the remainder zoned as open space. Glenveagh estimates that it will deliver 200 family homes on the residential development land between 2019 and 2023, subject to planning."

These lads aren't interested in keeping a golf course in Hollystown into the future.

Ollieboy may have further information re a CPO but the rezoning of the golf course for residential was granted in 2016 with on the condition that a GAA pitch and Clubhouse was built on it. I'm not sure why Dublin CoCo would CPO the land if it is was already a condition.

eoghan104

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Derek Zoolander

eoghan104 wrote: »

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Its pretty crazy alright how they would allow that with the golf course crisis that we have at the moment and loads of idle housing stock sitting there....

eoghan104

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

Its pretty crazy alright how they would allow that with the golf course crisis that we have at the moment and loads of idle housing stock sitting there....

Thanks for the smart response!

I do get that we have a housing crisis so I am conflicted. I am buying a house myself right now and it's a pain in the hole.

Do you think the houses they would build in Castleknock are the type of houses that we need though?! I doubt it.

prawnsambo

eoghan104 wrote: »

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Two that spring to mind are Dun Laoighaire and Bray Golf Clubs. Although Bray's original location has still not been built on due to planning problems with the fact that it sits on a flood plain.

eoghan104

prawnsambo wrote: »

Two that spring to mind are Dun Laoighaire and Bray Golf Clubs. Although Bray's original location has still not been built on due to planning problems with the fact that it sits on a flood plain.

Yeah I was a member in Bray when we moved. That is why I specifically said "where a new course hasn't been built". Bray got a great deal on the move and Dun Laoghire got a better one.

What I mean is, are there any examples where a club has been re-zoned and members just told to feck off!

prawnsambo

eoghan104 wrote: »

Yeah I was a member in Bray when we moved. That is why I specifically said "where a new course hasn't been built". Bray got a great deal on the move and Dun Laoghire got a better one.

What I mean is, are there any examples where a club has been re-zoned and members just told to feck off!

Well most clubs are member owned, so there'd be no telling them to feck off. It's with the post-NAMA clubs where the members have no say and no ownership, that the fecking off can be employed.

Derek Zoolander

eoghan104 wrote: »

Thanks for the smart response!

I do get that we have a housing crisis so I am conflicted. I am buying a house myself right now and it's a pain in the hole.

Do you think the houses they would build in Castleknock are the type of houses that we need though?! I doubt it.

Any incremental stock will cause some movement in the market which should see a trickle down effect to starter homes... be it from upsizing or downsizing.

Do you think we really need to protect company owned golf courses - there are more than enough golf courses in the area to service the need.

PARlance

eoghan104 wrote: »

How easy is it to get land re-zoned for housing when there is a golf course on it? I would have thought it was pretty hard so hate hearing stories like this.

I am in Castleknock and know that there is always talk of houses being built on it but I just assumed that was people talking ****e!

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

I'm not sure how easy or hard it is but in today's climate, I'm guessing it will be as easy as it ever will be. Particularly for courses in and around Dublin.

Just to clarify, the land in Hollystown has already been rezoned and subject to relatively minor conditions.

The same company own Castleknock, a property delevoper so their intentions are fairly clear. But they seem to look at Castleknock as a longer term development... probably because they haven't got it rezoned yet and may not in the short term.

Seve OB

eoghan104 wrote: »

Where else in Dublin has a golf club with a decent membership been closed for housing? (without another course being built)

Luttrelstown.

Oh wait, maybe that was a bad idea

PARlance

eoghan104 wrote: »

Thanks for the smart response!

I do get that we have a housing crisis so I am conflicted. I am buying a house myself right now and it's a pain in the hole.

Do you think the houses they would build in Castleknock are the type of houses that we need though?! I doubt it.

The houses planned for Holystown are classed as "starter homes", we don't know of any plans for Castleknock but they may be the same... or slightly more exclusive stater homes would be my guess. The margins are high on such homes and if they can get enough of them in, it could be the way to go. They mentioned that the cost to build in Hollystown would be ~€62,000 which seems incredibly low but leaves massive margin.

Seve OB

PARlance wrote: »

Stories differ but Glenveagh have already given us their story. I would go with the one they've given investors / the stock market.

"Glenveagh has also signed an unconditional legal contract to acquire a major site in Hollystown, Dublin 15. The 162-acre site is occupied by Hollystown Golf Club who will continue on a business as usual basis, with 19 acres on the site zoned for residential development and the remainder zoned as open space. Glenveagh estimates that it will deliver 200 family homes on the residential development land between 2019 and 2023, subject to planning."

These lads aren't interested in keeping a golf course in Hollystown into the future.

So that kinda of backs up my point and mutes yours. They have 19 out of 162 acres zoned for houses and the rest has to stay as open spaces.

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

So that kinda of backs up my point and mutes yours. They have 19 out of 162 acres zoned for houses and the rest has to stay as open spaces.

Yes but I'm not sure they would get 200 homes, a football pitch and clubhouse in the 19 acres? I can't see the golf course coming out the other side of it.

Edit: from another article, all development will be in that small pocket of land... for now.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/glenveagh-pitching-for-hollystown-golf-club-takeover-030hq620p
"The 20 acres were rezoned for residential development in 2016 with the stipulation that the lands accommodate a GAA pitch and clubhouse.

The golf course is still zoned as amenity lands. Sources say that Glenveagh may be buying the golf club as a long-term redevelopment prospect."

Seve OB

PARlance wrote: »

Yes but I'm not sure they would get 200 homes, a football pitch and clubhouse in the 19 acres? I can't see the golf course coming out the other side of it.

I'm no expert bit the way they build houses on top of each other these days I would say that will be easy

Also no expert on land size for golf courses but if they currently have 162 acres and 27 holes, simple maths says keeping 18 holes on a remaining 143 acres will be easy and so what if they do have to loose a few more acres

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

I'm no expert bit the way they build houses on top of each other these days I would say that will be easy

Also no expert on land size for golf courses but if they currently have 162 acres and 27 holes, simple maths says keeping 18 holes on a remaining 143 acres will be easy and so what if they do have to loose a few more acres

Ya, just added more detail to previous post. It will all be crammed into the 19/20 acres. But I wouldn't be too hopeful for the course tbh. They only really want to do one thing. Build houses to make money for investors.

charlieIRL

Any new housing development over 100 houses goes straight to An Bord Pleanala and not submitted to the local authority for decision. Its taking nearly 12 months to get a decision from the Bord now so doubt there'll be an development any time soon (Unless they apply for a lesser amount of units in phases)

The average markup on a house is 30% as well but this being Ireland, its probably much higher now.

eoghan104

Basically what I am reading is that nothing will happen for a while anyway!

Russman

PARlance wrote: »

Ya, just added more detail to previous post. It will all be crammed into the 19/20 acres. But I wouldn't be too hopeful for the course tbh. They only really want to do one thing. Build houses to make money for investors.

All those homes, plus a GAA pitch & clubhouse (presumably with some parking) in 19/20 acres seems a little ambitious, but I'm no expert.
Agree though that in the long term, the golf course would seem to have a big X on its back. You would think a company called Glenveagh Properties would have little interest in running a golf course, its just not in their core business IMO.

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

All those homes, plus a GAA pitch & clubhouse (presumably with some parking) in 19/20 acres seems a little ambitious, but I'm no expert.
Agree though that in the long term, the golf course would seem to have a big X on its back. You would think a company called Glenveagh Properties would have little interest in running a golf course, its just not in their core business IMO.

I think that 12-13 houses per acre is about normal these days. So allowing for two or three acres to be set aside for GAA grounds, clubhouse and carpark, that would leave you with roughly enough ground for the 200 houses based on that density.

Derek Zoolander

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that 12-13 houses per acre is about normal these days. So allowing for two or three acres to be set aside for GAA grounds, clubhouse and carpark, that would leave you with roughly enough ground for the 200 houses based on that density.

that's 21M profit based on 200 house at 350k with a 35% gross margin

charlieIRL

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think that 12-13 houses per acre is about normal these days. So allowing for two or three acres to be set aside for GAA grounds, clubhouse and carpark, that would leave you with roughly enough ground for the 200 houses based on that density.

You'll get up to 15 houses per acre.