John Leslie Trial - Accused of touching woman's bum in nightclub

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It does matter that they're in a minority, that's why I'm saying nobody should really be getting paranoid about this stuff, but what also matters is that we should at the same time be making attempts to reduce that minority closer and closer to zero.

And while I agree with you, I don't see a rise in such behavior. There isn't a sweeping movement for men to cross these boundaries. What has changed in male behavior in the last 10-20 years? If anything, the introduction of freedoms to women without the responsibility for their own safety is the major change. That women will act far more aggressively in nightclubs? That women will get drunk without friends, and 'encourage' men around them? That groups of women will get drunk, and encourage each other to acts of "depravity"?

[last time I was in an Irish nightclub, a group of women were betting against each other to see who could remove their underwear using one hand, while the other hand was drinking a pint. The men around them, (all strangers to them) were told to make the count, and failure meant a kiss for whoever had the last number of the count]

The thing is that male behaviors, for the most part, haven't changed considerably. Most guys (unless you're going to a Chav hangout or such) are still raised to have respect for women, and not to over-step boundaries. However, the behaviors of women have changed in the last two decades.. And yet, that doesn't factor into these problems... awfully convenient. Instead, we must look to the behavior of men as the main factor to influence.

I'll never argue that it should be done by any means necessary because that allows for people with their own particular agenda to lobby that their method should be used, such as utterly futile ideas like 'consent classes', the promotion of 'rape culture' and I don't know if you're familiar with it but the recently proposed (it's a crock, is putting it politely).

Oh, I know that. I've seen you argue other issues similar to this before. But then this isn't only about you, or me. The promotion of rape culture is only part of whats happening. This case links touching a womans bottom with sexual assault. That's incredible. And very scary.

Absolutely, and for the vast majority of men and women, that still holds true, but the idea of taking the initiative is one thing, taking without consent is completely counter-cultural in many cultures and quite something else entirely.

Um... taking the initiative in any dating environment means doing something first, and then looking to see if it has been received favorably. That first kiss. You never know if it's going to be completely accepted unless you've been dating for quite some time.

Most men and women are able to determine the nuances and subtleties of social interactions, and adhere to them, and then there are that tiny minority who understand the nuances and subtleties of social interactions, but just don't particularly care for them. They should be made to care when they contravene social interactions in order to take what they want, from someone else.

Seriously...? Then I disagree completely with you. Most people are reasonably okay at recognising really obvious (usually traditional signals or cult-status) body-language and cultural symbols. For people who have even a glass of wine, that ability drops considerably.

I've done NLP training and body language classes, both for negotiation training and more importantly for dating... and "most" people are pretty clueless. Why? Because we don't share the same understanding of what body signals mean. There's no guarantee that the other person will even see the signals. (especially in a dark room, with strobe lights, and loud music affecting their judgment)

Body language is an incredibly unreliable form of communicating anything unless someone has been trained to understand it... or two people have spent extended periods together.

But you skipped over my point. Our culture (movies, books, etc) all encourage men to behave a certain way in dating. That to be spontaneous, and to seize the initiative is the way to success. That women want a man to be confident and not ask for permission for everything... We've been exposed to that message all our lives... But now... to do so, is suddenly wrong (although we haven't actually been told that.. it just comes up when a woman calls the cops)

Ahh that's going slightly overboard. We're not anywhere near that level yet, and that's a good thing, because it's obvious that the majority of people are perfectly capable of engaging with each other without being accused of any wrongdoing. The reason we hear about the cases we do hear about in the media is because they are generally unusual, and of course clickbait has never refused a juicy story.

We're getting there though. Twenty years ago, people would have laughed in disbelief at a case like this being given any real consideration. Touch a woman's ass and possibly end up in prison?

The number of these cases is increasing... Still low ball figures, but.. considering the campaigns for womens safety going on, and consent classes coming up, you don't think some women will see this as a way to even some scores?

I highly doubt that. I think most people will understand that in those circumstances, it was accidental. I know they have done for me anyways when I've attempted to squeeze through a gaggle of women on my way to the bar. I wouldn't suggest they were attempting to assault me either by having their bums and boobs in my way (assault on the eye in some cases perhaps, but that's not a crime :pac:).

I hope you're right. I really do.