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John Leslie Trial - Accused of touching woman's bum in nightclub

Olsky

In my opinion the puritanism and sexual repression demanded by the #metoo movement has begun to exceed anything achieved by the catholic church at the height of their powers or the victorian puritans centuries ago. Having largely succeeded in getting rid of any flirting or physical contact "in the workplace" they have now turned their attention to "inappropriate" touching in nightclubs. Any like any orthodoxy people are terrified of challenging it. Read the court report on the trial below and give your opinion.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/18/john-leslie-goes-trial-accused-nightclub-sex-assault/

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[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That may well be true in your experience, but it's hardly universal, clearly.

I find this argument interesting because this is exactly the defense of those men who argue against these stricter measures to 'protect' women.

It is generally a minority of men who ignore social conventions and push boundaries. It is also generally a minority of men who engage in rape or sexual abuse. [i'm saying generally to cover different cultural backgrounds with different perceptions about 'the place of women', consent, etc]

And yet, the argument made is that it doesn't matter that they're a minority, we should be seeking to reduce it, regardless, by any means possible.

Look at any romantic/love movie or traditional type love story, and the focus is on the male taking the initiative. He doesn't know that she will respond in the way he hopes, but the interest is in that risk involved. The female gets to decide if his initiative is successful. In fact, quite often the story shows him being rejected, and then later, being accepted by the same woman. Love conquers all, and all that jazz. You'll rarely get movies or novels where the male is asking "can I touch you" or "can i kiss you". Our whole romantic culture is based around men taking the initiative and acting spontaneously.

At least... until now. Now we have case after case, accusing men of assault for all manner of touching, staring, etc... and all based on the perception of the female. Click those fingers, and expect decades of culture to suddenly switch off the indoctrination of how men should behave towards women in a nightclub/dating scene.

Aaaaaand that's not going to happen at all.

Oh, it will happen for some men. The truth is that 10 years ago cases like this were extremely rare to happen. This year alone has seen quite a few similar cases regarding what a woman perceived as stepping beyond the line, and the guy up on charges for it. I haven't seen any sign from society or the law to suggest that such cases are going to be dismissed. If anything, the media are suggesting that women should make more cases like this... in the cause of protecting women. And many men will be intimated by the possibility of that.

I suspect we're going to see a move away from informal settings like a nightclub and more movement towards formal settings where there are clear indications of what people want to happen. Oh, sure, clubs will continue, and plenty of people will go out seeking casual sex, but we're also going to get more cases like this one. Making a mountain out of a molehill.

I do wonder will we get to the stage where accidentally touching a woman's arm or leg will become a case for sexual assault or some other charge.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I find this argument interesting because this is exactly the defense of those men who argue against these stricter measures to 'protect' women.

It is generally a minority of men who ignore social conventions and push boundaries. It is also generally a minority of men who engage in rape or sexual abuse. [i'm saying generally to cover different cultural backgrounds with different perceptions about 'the place of women', consent, etc]

And yet, the argument made is that it doesn't matter that they're a minority, we should be seeking to reduce it, regardless, by any means possible.

It does matter that they're in a minority, that's why I'm saying nobody should really be getting paranoid about this stuff, but what also matters is that we should at the same time be making attempts to reduce that minority closer and closer to zero.

I'll never argue that it should be done by any means necessary because that allows for people with their own particular agenda to lobby that their method should be used, such as utterly futile ideas like 'consent classes', the promotion of 'rape culture' and I don't know if you're familiar with it but the recently proposed Provision of Objective Sex Education Bill 2018 (it's a crock, is putting it politely).

Look at any romantic/love movie or traditional type love story, and the focus is on the male taking the initiative. He doesn't know that she will respond in the way he hopes, but the interest is in that risk involved. The female gets to decide if his initiative is successful. In fact, quite often the story shows him being rejected, and then later, being accepted by the same woman. Love conquers all, and all that jazz. You'll rarely get movies or novels where the male is asking "can I touch you" or "can i kiss you". Our whole romantic culture is based around men taking the initiative and acting spontaneously.

Absolutely, and for the vast majority of men and women, that still holds true, but the idea of taking the initiative is one thing, taking without consent is completely counter-cultural in many cultures and quite something else entirely.

Most men and women are able to determine the nuances and subtleties of social interactions, and adhere to them, and then there are that tiny minority who understand the nuances and subtleties of social interactions, but just don't particularly care for them. They should be made to care when they contravene social interactions in order to take what they want, from someone else.

At least... until now. Now we have case after case, accusing men of assault for all manner of touching, staring, etc... and all based on the perception of the female. Click those fingers, and expect decades of culture to suddenly switch off the indoctrination of how men should behave towards women in a nightclub/dating scene.

Ahh that's going slightly overboard. We're not anywhere near that level yet, and that's a good thing, because it's obvious that the majority of people are perfectly capable of engaging with each other without being accused of any wrongdoing. The reason we hear about the cases we do hear about in the media is because they are generally unusual, and of course clickbait has never refused a juicy story.

Oh, it will happen for some men. The truth is that 10 years ago cases like this were extremely rare to happen. This year alone has seen quite a few similar cases regarding what a woman perceived as stepping beyond the line, and the guy up on charges for it. I haven't seen any sign from society or the law to suggest that such cases are going to be dismissed. If anything, the media are suggesting that women should make more cases like this... in the cause of protecting women. And many men will be intimated by the possibility of that.

I agree with you that it'll happen for some men, and indeed some women that they will avoid each other for fear of either being wronged, or accused of doing something in the wrong, but the vast majority of people of either gender will simply carry on about their lives as they did before, ignoring the mobs that generate a disproportionate amount of of noise for their size, and not a whole lot of anything else.

I suspect we're going to see a move away from informal settings like a nightclub and more movement towards formal settings where there are clear indications of what people want to happen. Oh, sure, clubs will continue, and plenty of people will go out seeking casual sex, but we're also going to get more cases like this one. Making a mountain out of a molehill.

I think the idea that we're going to get more cases like this one, is itself making mountains out of molehills. One of the reasons why we won't, is because cases like these are notoriously difficult for the State to win, not least because of a witness that's flaky as fcuk and is easy to destroy their credibility as a witness on the stand, but also because female-led juries rarely ever convict. They tend to judge the witness if they are female as though she's "letting down the side" as it were, or as you suggest - making a mountain out of a molehill.

I do wonder will we get to the stage where accidentally touching a woman's arm or leg will become a case for sexual assault or some other charge.

I highly doubt that. I think most people will understand that in those circumstances, it was accidental. I know they have done for me anyways when I've attempted to squeeze through a gaggle of women on my way to the bar. I wouldn't suggest they were attempting to assault me either by having their bums and boobs in my way (assault on the eye in some cases perhaps, but that's not a crime :pac:).

professore

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Context, to be fair. Leslie had already reminded the woman that she was getting married in the morning and that she should be wary of other men who may try and take liberties. They chatted for a while and then she asked him to dance. It's not an unreasonable expectation that given his earlier warning, he would restrain himself from taking liberties.

That's a totally unreasonable expectation for anyone with two brain cells to rub together. A celebrity protecting some randomer in a pub. Give me a break.

Classic male feminist move. All men are animals except me.

If there are any ladies reading this, any man who steps in and advises you to watch out for other men is a creep of the highest order.

Floppybits

So any chance of bringing back the slow set?ðŸ˜

One eyed Jack

professore wrote: »

That's a totally unreasonable expectation for anyone with two brain cells to rub together. A celebrity protecting some randomer in a pub. Give me a break.

Classic male feminist move. All men are animals except me.

That was John Leslies angle, sure as hell ain't mine! :pac:

professore

What is the sentence for touching a woman's bum when dancing with her - and stopping when she said no? A slot on the sex offenders register? Jail?

professore

Floppybits wrote: »

So any chance of bringing back the slow set?ðŸ˜

Good point - I would think a woman would find an erection pushing up against her more threatening than a hand on her bum but then again I'm not female.

professore

Talking about this case of putting your hand on a womans arse when dancing with her in a club.

The problem I have is that some women will react positively to it - in fact will want you to do it - and others won't. Asking is not going to work.

Just like some people like jokes with foul language and others don't, and you won't know until you try. Asking will get you a no in a lot of cases.

Banning off colour jokes altogether or having a very strict set of things you have to say beforehand will kill all spontaneity.

I heard Ronan O'Gara say several times about Johnny Sexton with that famous drop goal "He has some balls". If he ran that by RTE beforehand, would they have said yes? Yet in context it was spot on.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect we're going to see a move away from informal settings like a nightclub and more movement towards formal settings where there are clear indications of what people want to happen.

Maybe we'll bring back chaperones.

henry-gillard-glindoni-why-hesitate_i-G-10-1091-VPCV000Z.jpg

Though if the reports of the time are anything to go by the second the chaperone's eyes were averted men and women would be up to all sorts. As men and women will.

One eyed Jack

professore wrote: »

The problem I have is that some women will react positively to it - in fact will want you to do it - and others won't. Asking is not going to work.

Just like some people like jokes with foul language and others don't, and you won't know until you try. Asking will get you a no in a lot of cases.

That's... not really an argument or justification for doing something when you already have a fair idea the other person is likely to say no. Which would you rather - a no, and then you can be on your merry way to find someone else, or just go for it and find yourself in the dock?

I know which one I'd rather.

I heard Ronan O'Gara say several times about Johnny Sexton with that famous drop goal "He has some balls". If he ran that by RTE beforehand, would they have said yes? Yet in context it was spot on.

How is anyone to know the answer to that question? I mean, RTE have broadcasting standards that must be adhered to, but they also allow a fair bit of leverage, particularly if it increases audience figures and ad revenue.

They have their bottom line to consider, and that's why when Rory O' Neill thought he could say what he liked, he very quickly found out that he couldn't. That's why when Blindboy whatever going on about feminism and haunted bread, nobody gives a shìt what he has to say so that's why he knew beforehand he was able to get away with saying it. Tommy Tiernan before him had been at the same craic for decades and people simply didn't give a shìt.

Nobody gave a shìt what George Hook had to say on most issues either, and so he too thought he could get away with saying what he liked. Boy did he get that wrong :pac:

AudreyHepburn

The fact that people struggle to see a difference between rape/sexual assault and putting your hand on someone’s bum is a bit worrying.

The thing about these cases is they are not as black and white as some of you would like to think and that taking a man to court for something this minor actually undermines what the original metoo and similar campaigns are about.

If you don’t want to be touched a certain way fine but make sure your reaction is proportional to what occurred and let’s stop acting as though all men are Harvey Weinsteins just waiting for the opportunity to pounce.

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It does matter that they're in a minority, that's why I'm saying nobody should really be getting paranoid about this stuff, but what also matters is that we should at the same time be making attempts to reduce that minority closer and closer to zero.

And while I agree with you, I don't see a rise in such behavior. There isn't a sweeping movement for men to cross these boundaries. What has changed in male behavior in the last 10-20 years? If anything, the introduction of freedoms to women without the responsibility for their own safety is the major change. That women will act far more aggressively in nightclubs? That women will get drunk without friends, and 'encourage' men around them? That groups of women will get drunk, and encourage each other to acts of "depravity"?

[last time I was in an Irish nightclub, a group of women were betting against each other to see who could remove their underwear using one hand, while the other hand was drinking a pint. The men around them, (all strangers to them) were told to make the count, and failure meant a kiss for whoever had the last number of the count]

The thing is that male behaviors, for the most part, haven't changed considerably. Most guys (unless you're going to a Chav hangout or such) are still raised to have respect for women, and not to over-step boundaries. However, the behaviors of women have changed in the last two decades.. And yet, that doesn't factor into these problems... awfully convenient. Instead, we must look to the behavior of men as the main factor to influence.

I'll never argue that it should be done by any means necessary because that allows for people with their own particular agenda to lobby that their method should be used, such as utterly futile ideas like 'consent classes', the promotion of 'rape culture' and I don't know if you're familiar with it but the recently proposed (it's a crock, is putting it politely).

Oh, I know that. I've seen you argue other issues similar to this before. But then this isn't only about you, or me. The promotion of rape culture is only part of whats happening. This case links touching a womans bottom with sexual assault. That's incredible. And very scary.

Absolutely, and for the vast majority of men and women, that still holds true, but the idea of taking the initiative is one thing, taking without consent is completely counter-cultural in many cultures and quite something else entirely.

Um... taking the initiative in any dating environment means doing something first, and then looking to see if it has been received favorably. That first kiss. You never know if it's going to be completely accepted unless you've been dating for quite some time.

Most men and women are able to determine the nuances and subtleties of social interactions, and adhere to them, and then there are that tiny minority who understand the nuances and subtleties of social interactions, but just don't particularly care for them. They should be made to care when they contravene social interactions in order to take what they want, from someone else.

Seriously...? Then I disagree completely with you. Most people are reasonably okay at recognising really obvious (usually traditional signals or cult-status) body-language and cultural symbols. For people who have even a glass of wine, that ability drops considerably.

I've done NLP training and body language classes, both for negotiation training and more importantly for dating... and "most" people are pretty clueless. Why? Because we don't share the same understanding of what body signals mean. There's no guarantee that the other person will even see the signals. (especially in a dark room, with strobe lights, and loud music affecting their judgment)

Body language is an incredibly unreliable form of communicating anything unless someone has been trained to understand it... or two people have spent extended periods together.

But you skipped over my point. Our culture (movies, books, etc) all encourage men to behave a certain way in dating. That to be spontaneous, and to seize the initiative is the way to success. That women want a man to be confident and not ask for permission for everything... We've been exposed to that message all our lives... But now... to do so, is suddenly wrong (although we haven't actually been told that.. it just comes up when a woman calls the cops)

Ahh that's going slightly overboard. We're not anywhere near that level yet, and that's a good thing, because it's obvious that the majority of people are perfectly capable of engaging with each other without being accused of any wrongdoing. The reason we hear about the cases we do hear about in the media is because they are generally unusual, and of course clickbait has never refused a juicy story.

We're getting there though. Twenty years ago, people would have laughed in disbelief at a case like this being given any real consideration. Touch a woman's ass and possibly end up in prison?

The number of these cases is increasing... Still low ball figures, but.. considering the campaigns for womens safety going on, and consent classes coming up, you don't think some women will see this as a way to even some scores?

I highly doubt that. I think most people will understand that in those circumstances, it was accidental. I know they have done for me anyways when I've attempted to squeeze through a gaggle of women on my way to the bar. I wouldn't suggest they were attempting to assault me either by having their bums and boobs in my way (assault on the eye in some cases perhaps, but that's not a crime :pac:).

I hope you're right. I really do.

AllForIt

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2018/0708/977189-john-leslie-to-make-formal-complaint-against-police/

Report today that Leslie is going to sue the police. Obviously by doing this it will bring more attention back to the case. If it were a case of he got away with it he'd hardly take this line of action.

"I blame the police," he added. "At the very least I'd like an apology. I was detained and charged in the early hours of the morning over an incident in a public space in a nightclub that was covered by CCTV, yet the police showed no interest in obtaining the footage.

"Those films, taken from two different angles, show the young woman dancing quite happily with me. At no point does anything inappropriate happen.

"Yet instead of dropping the matter or sending the videos to the fiscal's office, the police simply sent a highly selective summary.

blinding

AllForIt wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2018/0708/977189-john-leslie-to-make-formal-complaint-against-police/

Report today that Leslie is going to sue the police. Obviously by doing this it will bring more attention back to the case. If it were a case of he got away with it he'd hardly take this line of action.

Life for a Man in this day and age .

Wait till they get the thought Police into action .

RacoonQueen

He also pointed out that his defence team secured CCTV footage from the club which "showed my hand for the whole three minutes and 10 seconds of the dance near as damn it in the same position, with twirls, separation, and her hands round my neck pulling me towards her".

Perhaps this is what has ruined the first year of her marriage rather than what she alleged happened. I stopped following this before his acquittal and from this it seems that he didn't touch her bum at all? So she totally fabricated the whole thing?

BattleCorp

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Perhaps this is what has ruined the first year of her marriage rather than what she alleged happened. I stopped following this before his acquittal and from this it seems that he didn't touch her bum at all? So she totally fabricated the whole thing?

Even if he didn't touch her bum at all, it'd be hard to win a civil case unless it can be seen on cctv that he didn't touch her bum.

There's a lesser burden of proof required in a civil case than a criminal case.