Dublin - BusConnects

loyatemu · 03-07-2018 11:20am

jvan wrote: »

First of all, apologies to anyone that isn't familiar with the area but was just having a quick look the proposed new route replacing the 184 which will now bypass kilpedder village completely, with buses staying on the n11 both north and south. It also doesn't go to the Glenview hotel anymore. Afaik the route they are suggesting isn't possible as there is a weight restriction on the link road at Barry's bridge therefore it has to go to the Glenview to loop around.
This is local to me, hence why I looked. It's a welcome that they propose linking up with Newcastle but I've always felt the Kilmacanogue bus should come to the Glenview too, thus creating a way for people to connect this way rather than having to go through Greystones and on to Bray to change buses.

I was told by the council some years ago that the weight restriction is there to prevent heavy traffic going through Delgany village. The "bridge" in question is a small concrete structure over a stream that was only installed about 10 years ago, I doubt it can't take the weight of a truck. The 184 only serves the Glenview in one direction anyway which is not particularly useful (and was only introduced in recent-ish years).

The clockwise route could go through Kilpedder, though the medium term plan is to close all the unnumbered junctions on the N11 so it wouldn't be able to do so once that happens.

bk · 03-07-2018 11:33am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

We hear a lot from posters on boards that the SGs are not very favourable with lots of Dublin Bus drivers. The quality of the Wrights vehicles with Dublin Bus over those 10 years have been a mix of good and bad. The VGs & GTs have notably had a really positive mood among both drivers & passengers alike. The SGs have been the biggest failures for this current tenure of operating in Dublin. They are slow, clunky & their build quality have been really poor.

Well I hadn't heard of any major reliability issues with the SG's! Yes, definitely heard drivers complaints about them being slow and light build quality. I suspect that is more an issue of trying to build a Diesel only Euro 6 bus, rather then a Wrights specific issue.

In order to hit the low emission levels of Euro 6. Diesel engines tend to be underpowered and the bus needs to built out of light materials in order to hit those levels, which leads to a worse build quality.

The VG and GT's have better acceleration because they use more powerful engines and better build quality because they use heavier materials. But that means they are also more polluting, which isn't good for the public or the environment and not good for DB management as it means higher Diesel costs.

It is all about trade off's.

The good news is that Hybrid Diesel Battery buses give you the best of both worlds. They tend to have excellent acceleration as the battery is mostly used for that and electric motors have great torque, so they fix that issue. It is also possible to hit the Euro 6 emission levels with heavier buses if hybrid. So they may also help with the build quality issue (obviously depends on manufacturer/spec).

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Wrights still has strong relationships in place for the future, through the NTA, with other operators Bus Eireann & Go-Ahead Ireland. But most of us here don't know how much longer that relationship with Wrights is going to last with Go Ahead Ireland. This is because they have yet begun their running their Irish operations yet from their new depot in Ballymount.

Well it certainly wouldn't be down to GA. What buses bought is decided by the NTA. Of course DB and GA would have input to give to the NTA on bus choices and GA might have valuable new information to share as they have plenty of experience of operating Hybrid and even full EV buses in London and Singapore which might help greatly. But in the end it is down to the NTA.

It seems sensible to me to trial buses from multiple operators and see what is the best bus to buy in future post SG.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Interesting so they must be being introduced on a high frequency route which needs a lot of buses. Let's hope they don't suffer a similar fate to last hybrid buses.

Thousands of Hybrid double deckers operate all over London every day. Something like 3,000 of the London Bus 9,000 fleet is now hybrid. It is a pretty mature and well proven technology now. No reason to be too concerned about it.

Qrt wrote: »

I saw a tweet from an old lecturer of mine, labelling it a precursor to privatisation, and I have to agree with him (and disagree with privatisation) but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Just because someone is a professor, doesn't mean they are smart.

Open tendering has already come to Dublin and has nothing to do with BusConnects.

tom1ie wrote: »

Just wondering what is the opinion on privatization of the bus service on this forum?
Good, bad, and why.

Depends what you mean by "privitisation", it comes in different forms.

Unregulated and unrestricted competition from anyone, no that is terrible and no one would be in favour of that.

The London Bus model, where groups of routes are put out to open and transparent tender to both public and private companies, with careful regulation and running under an umbrella organisation. I'm very much in favour of that model and I think it will work well in Dublin. Note this isn't really "privitisation" as semi-state companies like DB and BE are of course welcome to tender for these contracts too and the best tender wins.

We already have experience of this model with the Luas and it has worked extremely well, with the Luas being the most popular form of public transport in Ireland.

On the intercity express routes, you see yet another model. The NTA license two different companies to operate on these routes at 30 minutes apartment. Again it isn't really "privitisation" as the licenses are open to both public and private companies. Though in reality all the licenses were won by private companies as they were in faster. It has been a tremendous success. Passenger numbers are up 55% to 60% on these routes and people who use them love them.

Qrt wrote: »

Bad. Just look at England. Franchising is a mess got trains, and the free for all bus operations outside of London are a mess.

No one is suggesting that model for here! Why even mention it? That is pure FUD.

The model being implemented in Dublin is the London Bus model which works so well there and which has also worked very well for Luas.

jvan wrote: »

First of all, apologies to anyone that isn't familiar with the area but was just having a quick look the proposed new route replacing the 184 which will now bypass kilpedder village completely, with buses staying on the n11 both north and south. It also doesn't go to the Glenview hotel anymore. Afaik the route they are suggesting isn't possible as there is a weight restriction on the link road at Barry's bridge therefore it has to go to the Glenview to loop around.
This is local to me, hence why I looked. It's a welcome that they propose linking up with Newcastle but I've always felt the Kilmacanogue bus should come to the Glenview too, thus creating a way for people to connect this way rather than having to go through Greystones and on to Bray to change buses.

Well a big part of this plan is to spend lots of money (rumoured 2 billion) improving the routes. Which will include bridge strengthening and widening where needed. Along with extra bus lanes being built, etc.

bk · 03-07-2018 12:00pm

Having taken a quick look over the plan, I'm impressed. If implemented I think it would lead to a much better service.

Looking at the routes in my area, it looks good. In particular the N2 orbital will be really nice, with some great connections for the people along the route. Though a frequency of 20 minutes maybe a bit too low. But at least a god starting place. Also happy to see that it extends to Clontarf DART station, which makes more sense that what was originally indicated on maps.

A 90 minute Leap ticket that works across multiple buses, Luas and DART is of course very welcome. But no mention of cost and no mention if they will be getting rid of driver interaction, etc.

Heartbreak Hank · 03-07-2018 12:22pm

bk wrote: »

But no mention of cost and no mention if they will be getting rid of driver interaction, etc.

In section 1 on page 24 they reference the wider bus connects programme and how they will be going to "state of the art ticketing" and simplified payments and cashless.

I would be ok with the phased transition from cash and leap to cashless - too much change can frighten people.

"Medium Term: the BusConnects Program
The Bus Network Redesign is the first step in a series of transformative
changes to Dublin’s bus network over the coming years. The
next steps in achieving this transformation include:
• building a network of “next generation” bus corridors on
the busiest bus lines to make bus journeys faster, predictable
and reliable;
• developing a state-of-the-art ticketing system using
credit and debit cards or mobile phones to link with payment
accounts and making payment much more convenient;
• implementing a cashless payment system to vastly speed
up passenger boarding times;
• a simpler fare structure, allowing seamless movement
between different bus services without financial penalty;
• a network of park and ride facilities at key locations on
national roads.
• a new bus livery to integrate bus vehicles of different operators
and types, and providing a modern look and feel to
the new bus system;
• new bus stops with better signage and information and
increasing the provision of additional bus shelters; and
• transitioning to a new bus fleet using low-emission vehicle
technologies."

prunudo · 03-07-2018 12:39pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I was told by the council some years ago that the weight restriction is there to prevent heavy traffic going through Delgany village. The "bridge" in question is a small concrete structure over a stream that was only installed about 10 years ago, I doubt it can't take the weight of a truck. The 184 only serves the Glenview in one direction anyway which is not particularly useful (and was only introduced in recent-ish years).

The clockwise route could go through Kilpedder, though the medium term plan is to close all the unnumbered junctions on the N11 so it wouldn't be able to do so once that happens.

I understand the reasoning behind closing the junctions, but it would be a shame for the people of Kilpedder and Willow Grove to loose their bus services because of this though.

I do like the idea of the clockwise/anti-clockwise route linking the villages of Newtown, Newcastle, Kilcoole and Greystones through.

bk · 03-07-2018 4:05pm

Interestingly, look at the city center section, for the A route, which would include the likes of the current 16/13/41 it seems they are suggesting it will operate up and down Gardiner Street, around the Custom House and then onto the Quays. no more going down O'Connell St!

I can see why you might want to do that, but it will be very controversial I suspect. A lot of people coming from the Northside get off on OCS and shop on Henry St. Gardiner Street will be quiet a walk from there.

G_R · 03-07-2018 5:21pm

bk wrote: »

A lot of people coming from the Northside get off on OCS and shop on Henry St. Gardiner Street will be quiet a walk from there.

Ah now, quiet the walk? It's one street over. It's a couple of hundred metres. You're talking a 2 min walk.

Surely people will happily take a 2 min walk when it comes with a 10 min reduction in journey time

schemingbohemia · 03-07-2018 5:26pm

But they'll be able to hop on the LUAS at Abbey Street or Busaras to get to Jervis and this will now be included in their fare. Both are a couple of hundred metres from Gardiner St/Talbot St junction.

jd · 03-07-2018 5:28pm

Or they can stay on the bus and then walk across Halfpenny Bridge

bk · 03-07-2018 5:39pm

jd wrote: »

Or they can stay on the bus and then walk across Halfpenny Bridge

I'm certainly not saying it is the end of the world, but it certainly is quiet a walk and thus a major change for tens of thousands of users. It will certainly lead to a lot of complaints.

Also I hope it also involves footpath widening of Gardiner Street, because the few times I've used it because of parades etc. the footpath certainly wasn't wide enough to handle the numbers of people waiting for buses there.

bk · 05-07-2018 12:55pm

BTW in case anyone missed it, the details of the redesign of the Bus network were published a few days ago.

A lot of really interesting and exciting stuff there IMO, you can read through the changes here:
https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-public-consultation-report/

Basically there will be core radial, high frequency spine routes called A, B, C to G. Which when you get far enough out of the city, will split into spurs, e.g. A1, A2.

For example the buses on the Swords road, which would currently be the likes of the 1, 11, 13, 16, 41 will become the "A" corridor as far as Whitehall and then the A1 will head towards Clongriffin, A2 to the Airport, A3 to Swords, A4 to DCU.

These core routes will have very high frequency all day, even off peak. For instance the A will be every 3 minutes most of the day! And there will also be increased frequency weekends. They don't say it, but I suspect these core routes will eventually become 24/7 routes.

The other major part of the plan is a whole load of high frequency orbital routes. A O route ringing the inner city, then a N2, N4, N6 orbitals on the north side from the closest to the city out. W2, W4, on the West side, S2, S4, etc. on the south side. These are pretty high frequency in some cases and connect with DART stations, universities, etc.

There also going to release a new 90 minute fare, which allows you to switch between multiple buses, Luas and DART in 90 minutes for just one fare, likely between €2.15 and €2.60. I suspect this will basically become the default fare across Dublin.

All of this is separate the bus lanes plan, the 2 billion to build 200km of continuous bus lanes and supporting infrastructure. More details on that to come in October.

BTW lots of conversation on the above over in the C&T forum.

All exciting stuff IMO.

loyatemu · 05-07-2018 12:57pm

The "O" route could be a game changer if they can get it to run reliably - it connects everything together.

tom1ie · 05-07-2018 1:11pm

bk wrote: »

BTW in case anyone missed it, the details of the redesign of the Bus network were published a few days ago.

A lot of really interesting and exciting stuff there IMO, you can read through the changes here:
https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-public-consultation-report/

Basically there will be core radial, high frequency spine routes called A, B, C to G. Which when you get far enough out of the city, will split into spurs, e.g. A1, A2.

For example the buses on the Swords road, which would currently be the likes of the 1, 11, 13, 16, 41 will become the "A" corridor as far as Whitehall and then the A1 will head towards Clongriffin, A2 to the Airport, A3 to Swords, A4 to DCU.

These core routes will have very high frequency all day, even off peak. For instance the A will be every 3 minutes most of the day! And there will also be increased frequency weekends. They don't say it, but I suspect these core routes will eventually become 24/7 routes.

The other major part of the plan is a whole load of high frequency orbital routes. A O route ringing the inner city, then a N2, N4, N6 orbitals on the north side from the closest to the city out. W2, W4, on the West side, S2, S4, etc. on the south side. These are pretty high frequency in some cases and connect with DART stations, universities, etc.

There also going to release a new 90 minute fare, which allows you to switch between multiple buses, Luas and DART in 90 minutes for just one fare, likely between €2.15 and €2.60. I suspect this will basically become the default fare across Dublin.

All of this is separate the bus lanes plan, the 2 billion to build 200km of continuous bus lanes and supporting infrastructure. More details on that to come in October.

BTW lots of conversation on the above over in the C&T forum.

All exciting stuff IMO.

So to get the type of frequencies that are proposed in this report I presume more busses and obviously the qbc’s from bus connects are needed. Is the money for the new busses coming from the 2 billion bus connects pot or is the money coming from a different pot altogether?
Or do we have enough busses and it’s just a case of reorganizing everything to operate to this plan?
Looks great though, but frequency and capacity will all hinge on getting the qbc’s built which won’t be easy in a lot of the areas.

Qrt · 05-07-2018 1:33pm

tom1ie wrote: »

So to get the type of frequencies that are proposed in this report I presume more busses and obviously the qbc’s from bus connects are needed. Is the money for the new busses coming from the 2 billion bus connects pot or is the money coming from a different pot altogether?
Or do we have enough busses and it’s just a case of reorganizing everything to operate to this plan?
Looks great though, but frequency and capacity will all hinge on getting the qbc’s built which won’t be easy in a lot of the areas.

There only needs to be approx 25 new buses I think. Nothing extraordinary.

tom1ie · 05-07-2018 1:38pm

Qrt wrote: »

There only needs to be approx 25 new buses I think. Nothing extraordinary.

If that’s the case it shows how badly organised our current service is if frequencies can be improved so much with just 25 new busses. Is this money coming from the bus connects project or a separate money stream I wonder?

Stephen15 · 05-07-2018 1:43pm

Qrt wrote: »

There only needs to be approx 25 new buses I think. Nothing extraordinary.

125 additional buses are coming once GAI take over their routes

tom1ie · 05-07-2018 1:47pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

125 additional buses are coming once GAI take over their routes

Are these paid for by the nta? Is it out of bus connects money?

LXFlyer · 05-07-2018 1:49pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Are these paid for by the nta? Is it out of bus connects money?

Every PSO bus is funded by the NTA.

tom1ie · 05-07-2018 1:59pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Every PSO bus is funded by the NTA.

Yes I know that but I’m just wondering are these extra busses coming out of the bus connects allocated money or if it’s funded via a separate money stream.

bk · 05-07-2018 2:59pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes I know that but I’m just wondering are these extra busses coming out of the bus connects allocated money or if it’s funded via a separate money stream.

I get the impression that extra buses beyond the normal 100 per year replacements is coming out of the NTA/Department of Transport budget. I'd suspect it is coming out of the money allocated to the BusConnects project.

During the presentation to DCC, the NTA person said that he had spoken to Dublin Bus that morning and had assured them they will get whatever new buses they need for expansion.

However it should also be understood that a lot of this growth comes from reorganising the network. A lot of it is coming from more off peak and weekend services. Thing to realise less then half of Dublin Buses fleet operates off peak. The rest of the buses sit in depot unused during the day. So there shouldn't be a major issue with using these buses. The bigger issue will likely be funding the wages for extra drivers and extra hours to operate them. Wages make up the majority of the cost of running a bus.

The other thing to keep in mind is that if the bus lane plan goes ahead in full, along with ticketing and dwell time improvements. There should be a 50% decrease in journey times. Which should allow you to turn buses back around faster and get more productivity out of the existing fleet of buses and drivers.

tom1ie · 05-07-2018 3:01pm

bk wrote: »

I get the impression that extra buses beyond the normal 100 per year replacements is coming out of the NTA/Department of Transport budget. I'd suspect it is coming out of the money allocated to the BusConnects project.

During the presentation to DCC, the NTA person said that he had spoken to Dublin Bus that morning and had assured them they will get whatever new buses they need for expansion.

However it should also be understood that a lot of this growth comes from reorganising the network. A lot of it is coming from more off peak and weekend services. Thing to realise less then half of Dublin Buses fleet operates off peak. The rest of the buses sit in depot unused during the day. So there shouldn't be a major issue with using these buses. The bigger issue will likely be funding the wages for extra drivers and extra hours to operate them. Wages make up the majority of the cost of running a bus.

The other thing to keep in mind is that if the bus lane plan goes ahead in full, along with ticketing and dwell time improvements. There should be a 50% decrease in journey times. Which should allow you to turn buses back around faster and get more productivity out of the existing fleet of buses and drivers.

Thanks bk.

devnull · 05-07-2018 6:11pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

125 additional buses are coming once GAI take over their routes

It's not as many as that - Go Ahead Dublin have 125 buses worth of work but that is after the increased frequencies of 30% are taken into consideration.

Any buses that go to Go-Ahead will be replaced by new Buses to Dublin Bus which will then be redeployed onto other routes.

Stephen15 · 05-07-2018 6:23pm

devnull wrote: »

It's not as many as that - Go Ahead Dublin have 125 buses worth of work but that is after the increased frequencies of 30% are taken into consideration.

Any buses that go to Go-Ahead will be replaced by new Buses to Dublin Bus which will then be redeployed onto other routes.

How many buses will the city fleet grow by then. DB and GAI included?

bk · 05-07-2018 6:27pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

How many buses will the city fleet grow by then. DB and GAI included?

It seems to be going from roughly 1,000 to 1,125. Rough estimates, there are always old buses sitting around in depots, etc.

jd · 05-07-2018 11:19pm

I'm at the other end of the E1

"E Spine from Ballymun to Deansgrange (Stillorgan Road). The
E spine would also operate every 5 minutes or better. It would
come out of the city centre along the R108/Ballymun Road, and
would split into branches north of Ballymun Civic Centre. Each
branch would operate every 10 minutes:"

There are also 301 and 315 express services at peak hours
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1239/chapter7recommendednetworkplan.pdf

see (labelled) page 142

tom1ie · 06-07-2018 8:09am

Looks like I will be on the 16 (15b currently). Bus every 20-25 mins all day which is pretty much the frequency at the moment maybe 5 mins more frequent.
The route looks more direct into the cc, it’s just a shame the 16 won’t go down to barrow street anymore. Looks like it’ll be terminating at college green. Overall I’m happy though.

bk · 06-07-2018 9:58am

tom1ie wrote: »

Looks like I will be on the 16 (15b currently). Bus every 20-25 mins all day which is pretty much the frequency at the moment maybe 5 mins more frequent.
The route looks more direct into the cc, it’s just a shame the 16 won’t go down to barrow street anymore. Looks like it’ll be terminating at college green. Overall I’m happy though.

Keep in mind that is offpeak frequency at 12pm weekdays. It increases to a 10 minute frequency at peak times.

tom1ie · 06-07-2018 10:58am

bk wrote: »

Keep in mind that is offpeak frequency at 12pm weekdays. It increases to a 10 minute frequency at peak times.

On right I didn’t spot that! Well if that’s delivered it’ll be very impressive.
Where does it say that? I only scanned the document this morning. I’ll have a closer look later.

tom1ie · 06-07-2018 11:11am

In the bus connects documentation it states:
“There are eleven radial bus corridors planned in addition to the Bus Rapid Transit routes, as well as three orbital bus corridors.”
Also
“introducing Bus Rapid Transit, a higher quality of bus system, on three of the busiest corridors;”

What routes will be the 3 brt routes, I can’t find anything in the documentation.
I presume one of them will be the n4 route?

LXFlyer · 06-07-2018 11:48am

tom1ie wrote: »

On right I didn’t spot that! Well if that’s delivered it’ll be very impressive.
Where does it say that? I only scanned the document this morning. I’ll have a closer look later.

Full frequency list for every route is towards the end of Chapter 7.

Dublin - BusConnects

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