Mens Rights Thread

silverharp · 25-06-2018 05:50PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Colour me triggered.

If there's a problem that can't be solved by telling other people to read Jordan Peterson, then I'm yet to see it!

yep triggered or give a reasoned argument why that would be awful advice? you wouldnt be suggesting they take up activism or anything?

El_Duderino 09 · 25-06-2018 06:17PM

silverharp wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Colour me triggered.

If there's a problem that can't be solved by telling other people to read Jordan Peterson, then I'm yet to see it!

yep triggered or give a reasoned argument why that would be awful advice? you wouldnt be suggesting they take up activism or anything?

Peterson is the big book of multiple choice. He has said so much on so many topics, and I’d imagine most people don’t actually follow his logic with all the transcendent substrates and the meaning of reality. Not to mention the fact that you could watch hours and hours of Peterson without getting past his arguments for gowd. So you’d need to choose what parts of Peterson to direct them towards.

I think Peterson is already a hit with the incels, But apart from that, grand.

Would that be the help you’d suggest for ones with social disabilities or autistic symptoms?

silverharp · 25-06-2018 07:04PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Peterson is the big book of multiple choice. He has said so much on so many topics, and I’d imagine most people don’t actually follow his logic with all the transcendent substrates and the meaning of reality. Not to mention the fact that you could watch hours and hours of Peterson without getting past his arguments for gowd. So you’d need to choose what parts of Peterson to direct them towards.

I think Peterson is already a hit with the incels, But apart from that, grand.

Would that be the help you’d suggest for ones with social disabilities or autistic symptoms?

im sure somebody could or has put a play list compendium together for young men, it would be an odd criticism to make that someone has multiple intellectual interests.

i dont know much about incels to be honest but i would suggest they would be hostile to Peterson because the positions are incompatible.

now to the meat of your question, firstly I wouldnt know how to help anyone with autism , secondly is there a link between incels and autism to make it even relevant? Otherwise if someone has a "social disability" that I am assuming has been learned or is based on severe confidence issues etc. then i dont see why they cant turn themselves around enough to be functioning men. Case by case basis, what issues they have or is it more an unearned sense of entitlement were they just need to reframe the situation

25-06-2018 08:09PM

silverharp wrote: »

i fully agree, on the one hand dating seems to have gotten a little more skewed than back in the 80's or 90's. On the plus side there is a lot more information and resources about on line. When i was a teenager there were no forums where i could get advice and nobody told you what you should do or how to improve your place in the dating world or to even understand the dynamics of dating.
but i can see that some guys fall through the cracks and never see an upside. I would say they should watch a jordon peterson play list and think on it but i dont want to trigger duderino

Well, no... I've watched Peterson about his ideas on dating, and i wouldn't hold him as a role-model. In many ways his ideas are too abstract. It's one thing to tell someone that they should have more self-confidence, it's another thing to create a system for them to achieve actual personal self-confidence. There's very little detail to his talks and everything is more philosophical.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-06-2018 09:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Or they've been unlucky in those women they've approached for dating, or dating experiences themselves. It tends to be glossed over just how brutal many young women can be towards men she's not interested in, and a lot of negative behavior towards boys, can simply be to gain points with her group of friends.

The general problem with dating is that a huge percentage of responsibility for success is laid at the feet of the male. He does the approach, the initial flirting, and the chasing afterward. Some young women might take control but most don't. It's slightly different as women get older/experienced and have more confidence but even then most women wait for the male to make all the moves, while the woman sits back in judgment of the whole process.

I've had horrible experiences in approaching women when I was a teenager and again in my 20s (even thinking back I shudder at the shame and humiliation involved). It's one of the main reasons I don't tend to date western women now. So, no, I'd place a fair amount of responsibility for the way these guys feel... on the women they've known while developing. A little social responsibility for how they treat boys would go a long way.

There's very little in the way of positive encouragement for boys to learn dating. Perhaps it's different now, but I suspect it isn't. Either you learn quickly, have a natural talent in the area, or you're "a loser". And from the behavior of young women on TV or seeing my nieces grow into adults, I don't think things have really improved any for boys.

I'd throw in something extra. Society tends to judge boys/men for wanting to improve with regards to dating. Either you're naturally good at dating or you're lucky enough to meet someone when you're young. Good for them. But should you turn to others for advice (like speed seduction or PUA or a half dozen other 'disciplines'), then you're somehow faking it all. Part of the reason PUA turned into such a clusterfck of muppets is because of the negative attention it received from day one. You would not believe the amount of criticism I've received for learning NLP, communication styles, voice training, body language lessons, etc all of which to help me with dating. Oh, sure it makes for much better dating and wonderful connections with women... but I learned to do it. So.. it's all somehow suspect.

Many of these boys are angry because there is no instruction on how to become good with women, and learning to date from a vulnerable position without help is really frustrating.

In principle i have no problem with NLP or body language etc. Making eye contact promotes liking, so does active listening and a number of things most people know about. I think those learned skills are probably in action all around us every day learned through trial and error without conscious thought. I think the real problem with PUA and speed dating or even NLP is when you see someone who is clearly running a routine or a script. They just look like grifters and it gives the whole thing a bad name.

And if you could imagine someone who doesn't get social cues but they're doing some PUA routine, it's likely to look really obvious.

How would you foster social responsibility in girls re the way they treat boys?

El_Duderino 09 · 25-06-2018 09:37PM

silverharp wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Peterson is the big book of multiple choice. He has said so much on so many topics, and I’d imagine most people don’t actually follow his logic with all the transcendent substrates and the meaning of reality. Not to mention the fact that you could watch hours and hours of Peterson without getting past his arguments for gowd. So you’d need to choose what parts of Peterson to direct them towards.

I think Peterson is already a hit with the incels, But apart from that, grand.

Would that be the help you’d suggest for ones with social disabilities or autistic symptoms?

im sure somebody could or has put a play list compendium together for young men, it would be an odd criticism to make that someone has multiple intellectual interests.

i dont know much about incels to be honest but i would suggest they would be hostile to Peterson because the positions are incompatible.

now to the meat of your question, firstly I wouldnt know how to help anyone with autism , secondly is there a link between incels and autism to make it even relevant? Otherwise if someone has a "social disability" that I am assuming has been learned or is based on severe confidence issues etc. then i dont see why they cant turn themselves around enough to be functioning men. Case by case basis, what issues they have or is it more an unearned sense of entitlement were they just need to reframe the situation

We'll, to clarify, I think Peterson has so much about so many different topics and some of it is so vague, that you could read almost anything into it.

Have you found Peterson's stuff helpful yourself?

I head there was a fair string of autism among the INCELs. And I watched a few videos on YouTube and they all mentioned autism or other mental health problems.

But I don't think the fact that they have autism should mean we completely dismiss the idea of offering help.

silverharp · 26-06-2018 09:09AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

We'll, to clarify, I think Peterson has so much about so many different topics and some of it is so vague, that you could read almost anything into it.

Have you found Peterson's stuff helpful yourself?

I head there was a fair string of autism among the INCELs. And I watched a few videos on YouTube and they all mentioned autism or other mental health problems.

But I don't think the fact that they have autism should mean we completely dismiss the idea of offering help.

not personally but I did mention to my son who watches a lot of youtube videos anyway that he is one of the good guys on the net and it worth listening to, however I believe I'd have enjoyed his stuff as a teenager.

Anyone with autism should be helped, I remember a girl in school who got a lot of bullying and wasn't taken seriously, happened on her facebook and she had a banner about Autism awareness and the penny dropped. Incels don't get much sympathy on line and are just a useful online political football

26-06-2018 09:35AM

silverharp wrote: »

Incels don't get much sympathy on line and are just a useful online political football

Since few people have patience for those who whine all the time.

I sucked at dating and meeting people. No confidence at all. What did I do? I spent 8 months gradually building up my confidence doing small tasks leading up to greater tasks, while recording everything in a journal. That was just for encountering women (and people in general).. not even the actual dating element.

Incels do nothing beyond complain about their situation. They find like-minded people and rant about external issues which prevent them from developing themselves. Whenever they talk about their own problems, they pass the responsibility on to others. They've copped out. In many ways, this is why the Internet is so bad an influence. It provides you access to other idiots to justify your existance rather than seeking help.

I'd see Autism or any other such disability as being very different.

silverharp · 26-06-2018 10:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Since few people have patience for those who whine all the time.

I sucked at dating and meeting people. No confidence at all. What did I do? I spent 8 months gradually building up my confidence doing small tasks leading up to greater tasks, while recording everything in a journal. That was just for encountering women (and people in general).. not even the actual dating element.

Incels do nothing beyond complain about their situation. They find like-minded people and rant about external issues which prevent them from developing themselves. Whenever they talk about their own problems, they pass the responsibility on to others. They've copped out. In many ways, this is why the Internet is so bad an influence. It provides you access to other idiots to justify your existance rather than seeking help.

I'd see Autism or any other such disability as being very different.

misery loves company and all that and its one of the unfortunate aspects of the internet that one in a thousand people can have their ideas reinforced which wouldn't have been possible pre internet.
One would hope its just a brief phase in their lives and they move on if there happens to be a change in their circumstances.
They are male equivalent of internet feminists, probably had a rough time with the opposite sex in school and didn't use the experience as an impetus to improve themselves.

26-06-2018 10:06AM

silverharp wrote: »

misery loves company and all that and its one of the unfortunate aspects of the internet that one in a thousand people can have their ideas reinforced which wouldn't have been possible pre internet.
One would hope its just a brief phase in their lives and they move on if there happens to be a change in their circumstances.
They are male equivalent of internet feminists, probably had a rough time with the opposite sex in school and didn't use the experience as an impetus to improve themselves.

I dunno. I suspect that if i'd found a group of people I could contact through an internet forum who had similar issues to me, I'd never have learned to date/communicate effectively. There are levels of depression that go along with failing at something that everyone else around you seem to pick up naturally.

I can still remember the apathy of living in Ireland and not succeeding at dating... There wasn't much else to do in small-town Ireland and everyone pretty much knew your failures in this area. Horrible times. But thank Christ for Ross Jeffries... haha. Saved me from all that bitterness.

silverharp · 26-06-2018 10:19AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno. I suspect that if i'd found a group of people I could contact through an internet forum who had similar issues to me, I'd never have learned to date/communicate effectively. There are levels of depression that go along with failing at something that everyone else around you seem to pick up naturally.

I can still remember the apathy of living in Ireland and not succeeding at dating... There wasn't much else to do in small-town Ireland and everyone pretty much knew your failures in this area. Horrible times. But thank Christ for Ross Jeffries... haha. Saved me from all that bitterness.

given that there are etiquette and finishing schools for girls, a male one would be hilarious. Its gets to the conundrum of the implied situation that boys should either make it or break on their own initiative or that passing on the wisdom of ages would be considered mysogonistic if boys were given the opportunity to see behind the curtain as it were.

26-06-2018 10:25AM

silverharp wrote: »

given that there are etiquette and finishing schools for girls, a male one would be hilarious. Its gets to the conundrum of the implied situation that boys should either make it or break on their own initiative or that passing on the wisdom of ages would be considered mysogonistic if boys were given the opportunity to see behind the curtain as it were.

Well, seduction if naturally developed or learned simply through experience is something to be applauded. Seduction if learned is suspicious and dishonest. Don't you just love the logic?

I dated a woman once who said I was the most charismatic and enjoyable person she'd ever dated... (she was a very popular woman who had remained single) after our relationship, and we became friends she found out that I'd learned to communicate more effectively through reading, seminars, etc. She believed I'd been dishonest and false. I hadn't lied about anything, my feelings had been true, etc. It didn't matter. If it had all come naturally though...

silverharp · 26-06-2018 10:45AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, seduction if naturally developed or learned simply through experience is something to be applauded. Seduction if learned is suspicious and dishonest. Don't you just love the logic?

I dated a woman once who said I was the most charismatic and enjoyable person she'd ever dated... (she was a very popular woman who had remained single) after our relationship, and we became friends she found out that I'd learned to communicate more effectively through reading, seminars, etc. She believed I'd been dishonest and false. I hadn't lied about anything, my feelings had been true, etc. It didn't matter. If it had all come naturally though...

lol, also a little hypocritical as its perfectly acceptable for women to take grooming and appearance firmly into the fakeup category. By virtue of the fact you did adapt proved you had it in you in the first place.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-06-2018 10:49AM

silverharp wrote: »

given that there are etiquette and finishing schools for girls, a male one would be hilarious. Its gets to the conundrum of the implied situation that boys should either make it or break on their own initiative or that passing on the wisdom of ages would be considered mysogonistic if boys were given the opportunity to see behind the curtain as it were.

That's your perspective. I have experience of propel formally passing on their wisdom and experience to us and i never considered it misogynistic.

I went to a boarding school which only broke up every 3/4 weeks. So the school organised a guy to come and speak about relationships and women in general. It was like an advanced sex education course. It went into the realities of relationships, the importance of pleasure in sex and how to make sure you get to know your partner's turn ons and turn offs. Some of the chivalry stuff was a bit out dated but it was generally great and it was handled great.

Surely if someone is to impart their wisdom onto younger men, the onus is on the older men to organise it.

silverharp · 26-06-2018 11:24AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's your perspective. I have experience of propel formally passing on their wisdom and experience to us and i never considered it misogynistic.

I went to a boarding school which only broke up every 3/4 weeks. So the school organised a guy to come and speak about relationships and women in general. It was like an advanced sex education course. It went into the realities of relationships, the importance of pleasure in sex and how to make sure you get to know your partner's turn ons and turn offs. Some of the chivalry stuff was a bit out dated but it was generally great and it was handled great.

Surely if someone is to impart their wisdom onto younger men, the onus is on the older men to organise it.

I'd certainly approve of something like that but in an institutional setting there would be limits. Also given how education is more or less being taken over by women where the focus is about "empowering women" I think it would clash with anything approaching "empowering men", there is a bigger chance that they will be subjected to "toxic masculinity" classes or that men should knuckle under and become male feminists, because women find the traits of male feminists very attractive

26-06-2018 11:59AM

silverharp wrote: »

lol, also a little hypocritical as its perfectly acceptable for women to take grooming and appearance firmly into the fakeup category. By virtue of the fact you did adapt proved you had it in you in the first place.

I don't believe anyone doesn't have it 'in them' to adapt. The question is whether they will receive the help to adapt without the judging that tends to come along with most forms of "help".

But I would say that adapting took me 10 years of continuous hard work, emotional pain, etc. It wasn't done over a short period of time.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-06-2018 12:12PM

silverharp wrote: »

I'd certainly approve of something like that but in an institutional setting there would be limits. Also given how education is more or less being taken over by women where the focus is about "empowering women" I think it would clash with anything approaching "empowering men", there is a bigger chance that they will be subjected to "toxic masculinity" classes or that men should knuckle under and become male feminists, because women find the traits of male feminists very attractive

Humm. We'll it was an all boys school, with a mostly male teaching staff, male president, male principle and vice principal and male head of year and male delivering the courses never heard the term toxic masculinity until i heard men complaining about the use of the term. And it had no obvious feminist content.

But hey, don't let the person with experience of how it actually happened get in the way of the narrative, 'the feminists are coming!'.

It was great and it fostered a lot of confidence in how to treat women and what to expect in a relationship.

What do you mean about limits in an institutional setting? It was a Catholic school so it didn't go into much detail on sexual orientation but it didn't ask about contraception. Are those the type of limits you mean?

silverharp · 26-06-2018 01:00PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Humm. We'll it was an all boys school, with a mostly male teaching staff, male president, male principle and vice principal and male head of year and male delivering the courses never heard the term toxic masculinity until i heard men complaining about the use of the term. And it had no obvious feminist content.

But hey, don't let the person with experience of how it actually happened get in the way of the narrative, 'the feminists are coming!'.

It was great and it fostered a lot of confidence in how to treat women and what to expect in a relationship.

What do you mean about limits in an institutional setting? It was a Catholic school so it didn't go into much detail on sexual orientation but it didn't ask about contraception. Are those the type of limits you mean?

I'm thinking more in terms of practical relationship advice, for instance traits to look for in women, traits to avoid. There are obviously men ending up in long term relationships with bullies, narcissists etc. the men I can only guess didn't have the emotional radar to pick up these serious defects or because of the way they were raised thought the behaviour was normal. Or even things as simple as the psychology of nite clubs, while we live in a free market economy there is a whole nite club industry which makes a fair bit of green by exploiting young men. As I said in another post young men can discuss these kind of things on line now or find "big brother" type advice even if they have to sift the wheat form the chaff.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-06-2018 01:26PM

silverharp wrote: »

I'm thinking more in terms of practical relationship advice, for instance traits to look for in women, traits to avoid. There are obviously men ending up in long term relationships with bullies, narcissists etc. the men I can only guess didn't have the emotional radar to pick up these serious defects or because of the way they were raised thought the behaviour was normal. Or even things as simple as the psychology of nite clubs, while we live in a free market economy there is a whole nite club industry which makes a fair bit of green by exploiting young men. As I said in another post young men can discuss these kind of things on line now or find "big brother" type advice even if they have to sift the wheat form the chaff.

The course we had covered domestic abuse both in what can constitute domestic violence towards your partner and what constitutes domestic violence against you.

But I doubt it covered nightclub psychology. Where would you recommend these fellas go to get that kind of advice? Oh no, wait. Let me guess...

It probably cones under ‘don’t he s mug’ or ‘nobody respects a pushover’. But those were social rules we had to learn because it was a boarding school woth24/7 interaction with peers. How do you teach that to an autistic person or someone who doesn’t understand social cues?

Would you think it’s better in an institutional setting or from a chat forum on the internet?

26-06-2018 02:20PM

silverharp wrote: »

I'm thinking more in terms of practical relationship advice, for instance traits to look for in women, traits to avoid. There are obviously men ending up in long term relationships with bullies, narcissists etc. the men I can only guess didn't have the emotional radar to pick up these serious defects or because of the way they were raised thought the behaviour was normal. Or even things as simple as the psychology of nite clubs, while we live in a free market economy there is a whole nite club industry which makes a fair bit of green by exploiting young men. As I said in another post young men can discuss these kind of things on line now or find "big brother" type advice even if they have to sift the wheat form the chaff.

Personality isn't a constant. We don't remain the same throughout our lives. Our experiences shape how we perceive and interact with the world. So, while a person might have been absolutely wonderful when young, their experiences (and disappointments) could easily change them to being bitter, or shape them to being even lovelier. There's no real way to tell how someone will develop over decades. Then, on top of that, there are certain people (i do find more women than men fall into this.. although I would say the men involved are probably more likely to turn to substance abuse) whose personality is more fluid, and susceptible to changing especially when faced with severe stress, or emotional stress.

iptba · 28-06-2018 11:06PM

Over a year old but I don't recall seeing it before:

Sweden brings back military conscription amid Baltic tensions

2 March 2017

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39140100

The 13,000 who undergo the military tests will be a mixture of volunteers and conscripts. "You are part of the conscript system once you've done the tests - men and women are treated equally," Ms Nyh Radebo said.

Interesting to see that military service applies to people of both genders unlike most systems that just apply to males, though the way they're doing it doesn't guarantee that will be equal numbers of each gender.

Pawwed Rig · 30-06-2018 01:26PM

A fuuny video with an important point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9_bI789Gog

Not entirely relevant to the thread but it does give a nod to men's issues in that men are often victims of SJWs.

tritium · 02-07-2018 04:58PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, seduction if naturally developed or learned simply through experience is something to be applauded. Seduction if learned is suspicious and dishonest. Don't you just love the logic?

I dated a woman once who said I was the most charismatic and enjoyable person she'd ever dated... (she was a very popular woman who had remained single) after our relationship, and we became friends she found out that I'd learned to communicate more effectively through reading, seminars, etc. She believed I'd been dishonest and false. I hadn't lied about anything, my feelings had been true, etc. It didn't matter. If it had all come naturally though...

Personally I’d argue that anyone who didn’t value the efforts someone had made to develop as a communicator is a bit of an idiot tbh. There seems to be this backlash against PUA on the back of its somehow manipulation and only about getting into someone’s pants (to be fair many of thenpropoenents if PUA don’t help themselves here) however the tools they use are much more useful in life than pulling in a nightclub. They’re also the tools that many of the leader figures on both sides use to get ahead every day.

In a work environment you can expect communication skills and styles to be a big part of the skills you’ll be pushed towards in performance reviews. Why would you do any different outside of work? You still need to communicate to get the things you need etc- I say this as someone who, like you spent a very long time developing my communications styles and who would be far from a natural there.

Why we don’t actually teach these skills to boys and girls in school is beyond me. Communication isn’t manipulation but if you don’t understand how communication works it’s far easier to be manipulated imho. Far better to give everyone the skills instead of just letting people stumble around until they hopefully figure bits and piece out

tritium · 02-07-2018 06:23PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

In principle i have no problem with NLP or body language etc. Making eye contact promotes liking, so does active listening and a number of things most people know about. I think those learned skills are probably in action all around us every day learned through trial and error without conscious thought. I think the real problem with PUA and speed dating or even NLP is when you see someone who is clearly running a routine or a script. They just look like grifters and it gives the whole thing a bad name.

And if you could imagine someone who doesn't get social cues but they're doing some PUA routine, it's likely to look really obvious.

How would you foster social responsibility in girls re the way they treat boys?

Well yes but....

There’s a concept in learning around the unconscious/ conscious stages of learning. One of those stages is basically the “read a script” stage. It looks a bit (very) awkward but it’s part of the path to mastering a skill- communication is essentially just a skill to be mastered

I’d be more concerned tbh about the intention of someone doing an activity rather than the finesse of their execution. Unfortunately with communication there’s this irrational idea that it’s about manipulation- the smooth talker syndrome. The answer there imho is to make everyone better communicators and understand how to convey what they want or are comfortable with and understand the response.

In terms of “how girls treat boys” : I think you’re asking the wrong question to an extent. Let’s look at how society treats boys. There’s something toxic (I dislike that term though) in how society considers boys. We don’t actually seem to value them or ask why when they go awry. It’s almost as though the historical idea that boys figured it out for themselves is still there in spite of investing massively in young girls, and when it goes ‘wrong’ or they don’t achieve well clearly it’s the boys fault- it couldn’t be that actually society bears some responsibility. or has created some systemic barrier there. It’s almost as if all the responsibility is pushed in one direction.

But since you raise it let’s try to narrow it to girls and boys. We’ve discussed in detail during the recent trial up in Belfast the idea of how boys should consider girls and what’s is acceptable. Do we actually have a similar standard for girls? We ask boys to respect women but do we actually expect girls to respect boys at the most basic level of that idea. Do we set a different standard for boys and girls, are we perhaps condemning behaviour as toxic in boys towards women while ignoring similar activity when the roles were reversed? Looking at the drinking behaviour of both genders I’d suggest we just might be.

What about area like consent? Do we really teach girls that consent is something a man has to give too? Do we tell them that if they have sex with a drunk man they’re also a rapist (in act if not in law), or that pulling a drunk guy is actually ****ty behaviour too? Are we so obsessed with the narriative if girls as victims that we forget to tell them they have responsibilities too in this brave new world and that all the rights that have been fought for come with a set of responsibilities? Are we so obsessed with empowering young girls that we let bad behaviour slide more easily there?

02-07-2018 07:04PM

tritium wrote: »

Personally I’d argue that anyone who didn’t value the efforts someone had made to develop as a communicator is a bit of an idiot tbh. There seems to be this backlash against PUA on the back of its somehow manipulation and only about getting into someone’s pants (to be fair many of thenpropoenents if PUA don’t help themselves here) however the tools they use are much more useful in life than pulling in a nightclub. They’re also the tools that many of the leader figures on both sides use to get ahead every day.

The problem with PUA is that it's become a catch-all term for everything related to learning how to date more effectively.

Let me put it this way. When i started all of this about two decades ago, there were a host of self-help books about dating but they followed the traditional viewpoint of dating. Women are from venus, men from mars is a good example. They tended to be from the perspective of women giving advice to men on how women thought. Pretty useless in any practical sense in Ireland... since Irish women were not American women.

And then I found the Seduction.Alt.Fast website which most PUA today is based around. It's horrible muck and I steered clear of it, except to laugh with my friends over a joint. Later, I found Ross Jeffries who is one of the starting guys for the Speed Seducation scene, and the teacher of many of the PUA experts. He's a bit of a muppet himself, but he, at least, recommends other aspects of dating to work in tandem with your RL. To be honest, and to treat women with respect. To acknowledge to yourself that you want sex, but to remove that intention from the approaching so that you actually enjoy being with the woman.. not for sex, but just enjoy the experience.

The problem though is that the media in the US latched on to his courses, and sought to make him out to be a manipulator. He uses NLP as part of his system, and at the same time, Richard Bandler was coming under criticism about the manipulative aspects of NLP. It didn't matter that it helped communication, or that it increased a persons understanding of another person... all that mattered was that some women felt it was fake. Contrived.

In modern terms, PUA is a combination of Neil Strauss (The Game), and the Seduction.Alt.fast newsgroup/website. Utterly full of nutjobs and assholes. But there is another side of "PUA" which is not mainstream PUA, and it treats women with respect.. and treats ourselves with respect. But since PUA is the accepted term, nobody involved in this self-development is safe from that association. [Doesn't help on boards, that so many PUA wannabes come on quoting rubbish from their manuals. Makes me cringe]

In a work environment you can expect communication skills and styles to be a big part of the skills you’ll be pushed towards in performance reviews. Why would you do any different outside of work? You still need to communicate to get the things you need etc- I say this as someone who, like you spent a very long time developing my communications styles and who would be far from a natural there.

Because romance is supposed to be instinctive and natural. For men.

And I'm the same. I continued my exploration of NLP, body language, etc to improve my work skills (I was a credit controller and also did negotiations/liquidations). But work is different. Most people go to university to acquire the knowledge or skills to get their jobs.

Why we don’t actually teach these skills to boys and girls in school is beyond me. Communication isn’t manipulation but if you don’t understand how communication works it’s far easier to be manipulated imho. Far better to give everyone the skills instead of just letting people stumble around until they hopefully figure bits and piece out

The interesting thing is that most of the stuff that I learned to do, women already do naturally. Anchoring (connecting an emotion or memory to a physical association) isn't anything new... women do it all the time, when they are touching you in a conversation. Key words? Words that people use repeatedly in a sentence or conversation, because it has a stronger meaning for them... Ever notice how women will repeat words you have used back to you? Light Hypnotic suggestions? We all lower our voices at certain times, increasing the speed of our voice or slowing it down depending on the situation. It helps to get past the initial defenses... but there's nothing really manipulative about them, since it doesn't remove free will.

The issue is that women learn to do these things while they are teenagers and again as adults. It's considered the normal flirty behavior for girls, but never manipulative... Daddy, can I? We all know the drill.

TBH NLP and the remainder of these skills have improved my life in so many ways... and I really wish it would be taught in school... techniques for memory would certainly help. But perhaps more importantly, the techniques to help us to detect, understand and control our own emotions would have massive benefits for most people... although I doubt most would want to put in the time in self-inspection... (one of the things that PUA removed)

iptba · 04-07-2018 12:34AM

Slopping out in prisons appeal to be heard by Supreme Court

Around 1,000 other slopping out cases are on hold until this appeal is decided

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/slopping-out-in-prisons-appeal-to-be-heard-by-supreme-court-1.3552377

They could have avoided a lot of these claims if in the 1990s they had upgraded the facilities for men rather than (or perhaps as well as) upgrading the facilities for women to the Dochas Centre.

tritium · 04-07-2018 07:37AM

iptba wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/slopping-out-in-prisons-appeal-to-be-heard-by-supreme-court-1.3552377

They could have avoided a lot of these claims if in the 1990s they had upgraded the facilities for men rather than (or perhaps as well as) upgrading the facilities for women to the Dochas Centre.

Of course they could, and I’d wager they well knew it at the time too. Far better PR to be had by choosing to treat the men like animals though. Normally I don’t sympathize to heavily with a claim culture but on this I really hope they win

iptba · 04-07-2018 12:20PM

Here's the latest batch of gender-related hashtags I have noticed trending for anyone interested (I know some are not)
(Aside: I'm not on Twitter 24/7 of course and don't look back at lists for when I wasn't on)

#ImmodestWomen
Historian creates hashtag #ImmodestWomen to celebrate female academics Female academics have come together to celebrate their qualifications with an amazing new hashtag: #ImmodestWomen.

#NoCountryForWomen
"No Country For Women is a new RTÉ One series looking at Irish women’s experience of colliding with 100 years of discriminatory laws. In the centenary of women’s suffrage, documentary maker Anne Roper remembers some early inspiration…"

#unfinishedfeminism

#MacGill2018
Seem to be trending because people were complaining about a gender balance of the speakers (25%:75% female:male)

#HerSummer18
@Herdotie birthday bash - Maybe not very significant

#wfesummerschool
Women for Election
@women4election ‏
Women for Election is a non-partisan non-profit that trains women to enter politics. We're looking forward to training 300 #MoreWomen for 2019 local elections.
https://twitter.com/lynbw/status/1014449944118398976
https://twitter.com/louisemjoreilly/status/1014445666230243328
https://twitter.com/Ciairin/status/1014446876555403264

04-07-2018 12:39PM

We need men to say stop also
Refuse to participate in all male panels
Gender quotas across state broadcasting#wfesummerschool
Great panel

I've never even heard of a woman refusing to sit on an all female panel. And men are expected to refuse all male ones? Most of the teacher panels/committees in my region are completely operated by women with a token priest to represent the Church schools.

Calhoun · 04-07-2018 12:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never even heard of a woman refusing to sit on an all female panel. And men are expected to refuse all male ones? Most of the teacher panels/committees in my region are completely operated by women with a token priest to represent the Church schools.

Hahahah brilliant, when it comes to mens right issues its for men to fight for but when its the other way around.

I bet next men will be guilted into it or political pressure put onto them from a career perspective.

Mens Rights Thread

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