Meat, dairy and poultry production scandals

_Brian · 21-06-2018 5:39pm

I’m going to throw this out here and possibly be shot down.

From the various threads it’s obvious there is major concern among the v&v community regarding farming animals and I can understand that considering the videos and images seen.

Are ye not concerned with how soy, fruit and veg is produced?

I see no threads on the awful conditions workers endure or the damage done by plastic and fertiliser abuses.

https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html

21-06-2018 11:04pm

In 2016 Ireland imported 22,000 tonnes of beef from Britain.

ganmo · 21-06-2018 11:05pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In 2016 Ireland imported 22,000 tonnes of beef from Britain.

...and?

21-06-2018 11:06pm

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.

So where are you rashers coming from ?

http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

gozunda · 21-06-2018 11:39pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.
So where are you rashers coming from ?
http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

'Your? May I ask who is this directed at?

I find the placement of the 'information' a bit odd at best. This is the vegan & vegetarian forum and neither group eat 'pork' ...

Btw rashers are classified as 'bacon' not pork. But I reckon you know that already.

More relevant imo.

A SEARCH of 'An Irish Flora by Webb Parnell and Doogue shows that Almond trees are not native nor grown commercially in Ireland.

So where are your Almonds coming from ?

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellness/the-unhealthy-truth-about-almond-milk-20151109-gkupts.html

Bugsy2012 · 21-06-2018 11:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.

So where are you rashers coming from ?

http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

Poland where industry standards are very relaxed.

Its supply and demand, people want cheap cuts so it has to come from somewhere, but once processed and packaged up who really wants to see the paper trail of its origin once its in there trolley.

Poultry the same, reared in Poland, processed in France/Germany, packaged in Ireland, all inside the EU so people see an irish flag on the label and assume is 100% irish

Cost drives the market not ethics or sustainability. Small scale farmer gets squeezed out and big industry dictates price.

22-06-2018 12:15am

I’ve also seen that 90% of chicken sold in Ireland comes from Thailand or Brazil.

Pretty damning figures.

Does your average joe know this ?

Can’t imagine either of those countries have much in terms of standards or regulations in relations to ‘animal welfare’.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/finance/chicken-in-catering-sector-90-sourced-from-outside-ireland-208213.html

ganmo · 22-06-2018 12:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

I’ve also seen that 90% of chicken sold in Ireland comes from Thailand or Brazil.

Pretty damning figures.

Does your average joe know this ?

Can’t imagine either of those countries have much in terms of standards or regulations in relations to ‘animal welfare’.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/finance/chicken-in-catering-sector-90-sourced-from-outside-ireland-208213.html

i think the headline you saw was '90% of chicken used in catering is imported

http://www.safefood.eu/SafeFood/media/SafeFoodLibrary/Documents/Publications/Research%20Reports/Where-does-our-food-come-from_-Booklet.pdf

22-06-2018 12:26am

ganmo wrote: »

i think the headline you saw was '90% of chicken used in catering is imported

http://www.safefood.eu/SafeFood/media/SafeFoodLibrary/Documents/Publications/Research%20Reports/Where-does-our-food-come-from_-Booklet.pdf

I know.

Can you imagine for every 9 meals with chicken someone has ordered in a restaurant that 9 of those chickens could be from Thailand or Brazil ?

For every 10 chicken sandwiches bought 9 of those are effectively from Thailand or Brazil .

Unreal.

So when you leave your home and eat chicken for every 10 you eat 9 will have come from Thailand or Brazil.

I’ll need to find some farming videos from Thailand and Brazil.

ganmo · 22-06-2018 12:40am

also that headline was 6 years ago. things hopefully have changed since.

but you are hyping it a bit too much 85% of our chicken is home produced https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/msb/meatsupplybalance2015/

22-06-2018 12:43am

ganmo wrote: »

also that headline was 6 years ago. things hopefully have changed since.

but you are hyping it a bit too much 85% of our chicken is home produced https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/msb/meatsupplybalance2015/

Hopefully ? Not sure the public would like ‘hopefully’.

Yeah but 90% of chicken bought outside the home is from Thailand or Brazil.

So what do they do in raising animals for food.

I’ll have to look into it.

22-06-2018 12:44am

So how much Irish meat is exported and how much is imported ? And why ?

If Ireland export so much beef why are they importing so much ?

ganmo · 22-06-2018 12:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Hopefully ? Not sure the public would like ‘hopefully’.

Yeah but 90% of chicken bought outside the home is from Thailand or Brazil.

So what do they do in raising animals for food.

I’ll have to look into it.

no thats not what the headline was. its 90% from outside ireland, meaning EU and the rest of the world

wonski · 22-06-2018 12:57am

If you avoid processed foods you will avoid most of the issues connected to imported food of unknown origin.

I don't remember I have ever seen fresh non Irish meat on the shelves. Maybe some from UK or NI, but not in last few years.

If you buy some processed oven ready chicken goujons you never know.

After the horse meat scandal both the regulations and practices of Irish factories have been tightened up and improved.

I work in food industry and while I don't overlook the conditions on the farms, I have done some factories tours and was impressed with how things changed.
While it is not a pretty view, you have to realize that growing animals for food purposes is not pretty. What is normal for the industry and considered as being animal friendly and treating animal wellbeing seriously, will put some people off meat for weeks.

In my opinion Irish farmers take good care of the animals and there are strict controls in place to ensure healthy animals and safe food later in the process.

22-06-2018 1:10am

ganmo wrote: »

no thats not what the headline was. its 90% from outside ireland, meaning EU and the rest of the world

Still though. I doubt most Irish people are aware of this.

_Brian · 22-06-2018 5:37am

Deleted User wrote: »

Still though. I doubt most Irish people are aware of this.

I think the big culprits here are take aways
Irish eat a ridiculous amount of fast food, all cheap and nasty, I doubt the style of people eating chicken wings three or four times a week care, I wish they did, but they just don’t, if they even cared about themselves they wouldn’t be stuffing their faces with trash food on the first place.

_Brian · 22-06-2018 5:41am

wonski wrote: »

If you avoid processed foods you will avoid most of the issues connected to imported food of unknown origin.

I don't remember I have ever seen fresh non Irish meat on the shelves. Maybe some from UK or NI, but not in last few years.

If you buy some processed oven ready chicken goujons you never know.

After the horse meat scandal both the regulations and practices of Irish factories have been tightened up and improved.

I work in food industry and while I don't overlook the conditions on the farms, I have done some factories tours and was impressed with how things changed.
While it is not a pretty view, you have to realize that growing animals for food purposes is not pretty. What is normal for the industry and considered as being animal friendly and treating animal wellbeing seriously, will put some people off meat for weeks.

In my opinion Irish farmers take good care of the animals and there are strict controls in place to ensure healthy animals and safe food later in the process.

There is an amount of non Irish fresh meat on the shelves but it’s easily avoided with minimal effort.
One of our local veg shops has a fresh meat counter and I searched every piece and non was origin Ireland. Turkeys and chicken from the U.K., pork from Netherlands. We left a trolley with maybe €80 of veg sitting in the isle over it, I just couldn’t support this behaviour. It’s pure profit over produce and it’s disgusting

monkeynuz · 22-06-2018 6:10am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.

So where are you rashers coming from ?

http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

From an organic farm in Ireland and they cost us the princely sum of >€7 for four rashers and they are delicious!

Not everyone wants cheap mass produced food, but we did have a hard time finding organic/free range meat producers and then finding ones who do mail order was even more difficult.

gozunda · 22-06-2018 7:48am

wonski wrote: »

If you avoid processed foods you will avoid most of the issues connected to imported food of unknown origin.

I don't remember I have ever seen fresh non Irish meat on the shelves. Maybe some from UK or NI, but not in last few years.

If you buy some processed oven ready chicken goujons you never know.

After the horse meat scandal both the regulations and practices of Irish factories have been tightened up and improved.

I work in food industry and while I don't overlook the conditions on the farms, I have done some factories tours and was impressed with how things changed.
While it is not a pretty view, you have to realize that growing animals for food purposes is not pretty. What is normal for the industry and considered as being animal friendly and treating animal wellbeing seriously, will put some people off meat for weeks.

In my opinion Irish farmers take good care of the animals and there are strict controls in place to ensure healthy animals and safe food later in the process.

^^^This. There was a farming program on TV a couple of months ago and they were interviewing a farmer in relation to the fodder shortage.

Asked how he was managing, the farmer replied "it doesn't really matter whether you're hungry or tired - the animals come first"

This is my experience of Farming in Ireland ...

Tar.Aldarion · 22-06-2018 10:22am

_Brian wrote: »

I’m going to throw this out here and possibly be shot down.

From the various threads it’s obvious there is major concern among the v&v community regarding farming animals and I can understand that considering the videos and images seen.

Are ye not concerned with how soy, fruit and veg is produced?

I see no threads on the awful conditions workers endure or the damage done by plastic and fertiliser abuses.

https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html

In this thread that would be whataboutism, if you want me to make a new thread with this post I can move it in there.

gozunda wrote: »

Ok where is that?

I would tend to disagree with that conclusion. My own experience here is that regulations in farming and food production have got much tougher over the last couple of decades and welfare standards are consistently held to very high level. Inspection is a norm and those that don't meet those standards can't do business. It's that simple.

Not every one wants cheap (and often nasty) imported foodstuffs. This is also a significant factor in vegan diets which often rely on cheap imported foods.

The buyer / consumer needs to know that.

Every single hatchery in the country, in every country, that I know of (mother worked for Dept of Agriculture for decades). An example is Whitakers which supply half of that Irish market.

What place/s is it you speak of that this does not happen?
I would be interesting in talking to them.

Mooooo wrote: »

And what is the reason for that.? The consumer wants cheap food, and the supermarkets and processors force the price down and squeeze the margins on the farmers supplying them till they are left with little other choice. As I said in another thread the way to influence is buy free range produce and Irish beef and dairy. Grass is our main feedstock for beef and dairy. We don't have the food bi products and waste that other countries have so making use of grass as much as possible is our way of farming.
It's not just beef and dairy supermarkets do this to. Talk to any veg farmer in north Dublin and see the pressure put on them to have perfectly shaped veg of the right size and at feck all margin or they'll be replaced by stuff grown in a greenhouse in spain

The consumer is heavily to blame and always will be for the foreseeable future, they will buy what they can get away with for the most part, that's generally why things are restricted at above a consumer level. If I hadn't gone vegan I doubt I would have then made further steps to now buy ethical clothing and so on, we don't think about these things and have to add them incrementally. The uniform veg thing is ridiculous too.

_Brian · 22-06-2018 2:08pm

I can say with beef the processors are a serious problem.

They also keep beef cattlenthemselves and use the output from these to force down prices. It hasn’t been unusual for a processor to truck in carcasses from Poland if farmers try holding back animals over price disputes.
This farmers are again forced to take the price dictated.

Beef and all meat products are too cheap, they’re not bargain basement products. Doing this demeans their production and value and leads to overconsumption and wastage.

As a beef farmer I’d like to see higher retail prices even if that results in less beef sold, at least it would be treated like the premium product it is.

22-06-2018 10:53pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So how much Irish meat is exported and how much is imported ? And why ?

If Ireland export so much beef why are they importing so much ?

Any takers for this ?

_Brian · 22-06-2018 11:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Any takers for this ?

My understanding is it’s just trade. There will always be cheap beef produced elsewhere and consumers love cheap food.

Processors bring in beef to control prices they need to pay to farmers, these are all
“Imports”, Goodman for example has many plants in many countries and will dump in carcasses from there when he needs to put manners on local farmers for asking for stronger prices.

24-06-2018 11:57pm

What’s the story with exports and imports for meat ?

Seems like Ireland is exporting large quantities of meat and importing large quantities of the same meats.

So Irish produced meat is sold abroad for a premium while they also import ‘lesser’ meat, label it as Irish and sell it in Ireland.

Why does the Irish consumer accept this ?

Seems crazy to me bar the obvious financial benefits to the industry.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/over-one-third-of-irish-pork-exports-go-to-markets-outside-of-the-eu/

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/over-one-third-of-irish-pork-exports-go-to-markets-outside-of-the-eu/

25-06-2018 12:17am

There’s a good chance I’m stupid but I’m struggling to understand this.

In 2016 Ireland produced 588,000 tonnes of beef and exported 535,000 tonnes of said beef.

So that leaves Irish produced beef at 58,000 tonnes staying in Ireland.

In 2016 Ireland imported almost 30,000 tonnes of beef.

So it’s safe to say over 50% of beef consumed in Ireland is imported. Am I wrong ?

We’ve seen that 90% of chickens used in deli’s, restaurants, hotels, takeaways and so on come from countries such as Thailand and Brazil.

I very much doubt the public realise this.

goz83 · 25-06-2018 12:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

There’s a good chance I’m stupid but I’m struggling to understand this.

In 2016 Ireland produced 588,000 tonnes of beef and exported 535,000 tonnes of said beef.

So that leaves Irish produced beef at 58,000 tonnes staying in Ireland.

In 2016 Ireland imported almost 30,000 tonnes of beef.

So it’s safe to say over 50% of beef consumed in Ireland is imported. Am I wrong ?

We’ve seen that 90% of chickens used in deli’s, restaurants, hotels, takeaways and so on come from countries such as Thailand and Brazil.

I very much doubt the public realise this.

I agree with your first line. How did you decide that 50% of beef consumed in Ireland is imported when your own figures say that we keep 58,000 tonnes and import only 30,000 tonnes for consumption?

It has already been pointed out to you that the imported poultry does not specifically state Thailand and Brazil....and that it is only stated as “outside ireland” and yet you continue to stir the sh!t and ignore the facts. Are the people you talk to aware of this?

I’ve got nothing to do with the food industry, but I find it very rich when extremist vegans carry out their animal welfare stunts while ignoring the cost of their chosen lifestyle.

25-06-2018 12:57am

goz83 wrote: »

I agree with your first line. How did you decide that 50% of beef consumed in Ireland is imported when your own figures say that we keep 58,000 tonnes and import only 30,000 tonnes for consumption?

It has already been pointed out to you that the imported poultry does not specifically state Thailand and Brazil....and that it is only stated as “outside ireland” and yet you continue to stir the sh!t and ignore the facts. Are the people you talk to aware of this?

I’ve got nothing to do with the food industry, but I find it very rich when extremist vegans carry out their animal welfare stunts while ignoring the cost of their chosen lifestyle.

Yeah. 58 + 30 is 88 so it’s more like 40% ?

Anyway, it’s a lot eh.

I’ve definitely read (and I think I linked the article) that up to 90% of chickens used on the high street so that would be deli’s, restaurants, hotels, your local takeaway, ready made sandwiches and so on are imported from Thailand and Brazil.

Also, extremist vegans have nothing to do with this thread so no idea why you’re bringing that up.

It’s funny though that you ‘find it very rich’ and see a cost to their lifestyle but not to the lifestyle of a carnist.

wonski · 25-06-2018 1:02am

Meat labelling is very strict, you won't buy Chinese chicken by mistake.

There are two markets for meat, one is fresh meat that you can buy with confidence that if it is labelled as slaughtered in Ireland then it is.

Another one is meat for food factories, delis, takeaways etc. This one comes from many places, and it is labelled but you never know how strictly regulations are applied in these countries.

I can tell you that in Ireland labelling is pretty much spot on because penalties and business consequences are not worth the risk.

As for morals of how animals are treated we could also discuss how people are treated on the farms in Italy for example where illegal immigrants are often used as a cheap workforce without any rights to pick fruits and vegetables etc.

Animals are often treated better than humans working in some places. How sad is that?

25-06-2018 1:26am

wonski wrote: »

Meat labelling is very strict, you won't buy Chinese chicken by mistake.

There are two markets for meat, one is fresh meat that you can buy with confidence that if it is labelled as slaughtered in Ireland then it is.

Another one is meat for food factories, delis, takeaways etc. This one comes from many places, and it is labelled but you never know how strictly regulations are applied in these countries.

I can tell you that in Ireland labelling is pretty much spot on because penalties and business consequences are not worth the risk.

As for morals of how animals are treated we could also discuss how people are treated on the farms in Italy for example where illegal immigrants are often used as a cheap workforce without any rights to pick fruits and vegetables etc.

Animals are often treated better than humans working in some places. How sad is that?

This is an article on labelling and nothing about it seems spot on -

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/large-amount-of-pork-eaten-here-imported-despite-full-irish-image-26730657.html

Humans generally have a choice. Farmed animals don’t. No comparison.

wonski · 25-06-2018 1:35am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is an article on labelling and nothing about it seems spot on -

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/large-amount-of-pork-eaten-here-imported-despite-full-irish-image-26730657.html

Humans generally have a choice. Farmed animals don’t. No comparison.

How many times do I have to say it. It is processed, not fresh meat.

The final product is labelled as made in Ireland.

Customers need to realize that product made in Ireland doesn't mean all of its ingredients are Irish.

Read the labels. Made in Ireland using EU pork is frequently used. And that EU pork could be from god knows where.

Buy fresh Irish meat and you will not get caught.

Pork is a little more complicated as Ireland is not a big producer and its quality is not as strong as beef products.

Meat, dairy and poultry production scandals

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