Meat, dairy and poultry production scandals

Exactly what is says.

Might be good to have a thread that highlight international concerns with the farming of meat, dairy and poultry.

Today’s scandal -

Germany recalls contaminated Dutch eggs in fipronil scare http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44452399

Farm workers sacked after video shows abuse of pigs http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-44226384

And a cover up on the above egg scandal -

Belgium says it knew about contaminated eggs in June http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40841411

Very current.

Story carried today and involves Irish farming.

So much for thinking Irish standards are any better than other countries.

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-daily-mail/20180618/281724090266348

lolo62

gozunda wrote: »

^^ I thought you already posted about this in another thread? No?

Btw to clarify the story is about the breaking of EU animal transport regulation relating to animals from Ireland between France and the Netherlands by certain hauliers and NOT 'Irish Farming'

It's exactly because EU regulations have been broken that the hauliers have been apparently fined. There you go.

I do hope that this is not yet another anti Irish farming thread Klopp ....

To your criticism of standards and other countries

This from Compassion in World Farming ...



https://www.ciwf.com/farm-animals/cows/veal-calves/

*and Ireland.

Except they don't group house them after 8 weeks. Despite the fact legally they are supposed to.
I just recently saw footage from a UK farm where calves way older than that are being kept in tiny solitary huts and pens with no interaction with eachother besides leaning over the fences to rub noses. Some have outgrown their huts and have open wounds on their backs from struggling to get in and out of the huts. The farm the footage was taken from was supplier of Marks and Spencer milk.

I'm new to this topic but there is no going back for me since watching some of the videos sent to me by a friend recently. I literally can't believe what's happening in farming on an industrial scale.

The constant push to increase production/profits means less time/energy put into animal care and welfare. What's going on in the US and elsewhere is proof of that.

I'm just so glad that footage is being leaked consistently now and people (my self included) are waking up. My Dad who's retired and been a meat eater/dairy consumer all his life, is now looking into veganism after seeing some of these stories and videos.

gozunda

lolo62 wrote: »

Except they don't group house them after 8 weeks. Despite the fact legally they are supposed to.
I just recently saw footage from a UK farm where calves way older than that are being kept in tiny solitary huts and pens with no interaction with eachother besides leaning over the fences to rub noses. Some have outgrown their huts and have open wounds on their backs from struggling to get in and out of the huts. The farm the footage was taken from was supplier of Marks and Spencer milk.
I'm new to this topic but there is no going back for me since watching some of the videos sent to me by a friend recently. I literally can't believe what's happening in farming on an industrial scale.The constant push to increase production/profits means less time/energy put into animal care and welfare. What's going on in the US and elsewhere is proof of that.
I'm just so glad that footage is being leaked consistently now and people (my self included) are waking up. My Dad who's retired and been a meat eater/dairy consumer all his life, is now looking into veganism after seeing some of these stories and videos.

What has been pointed out by the group Compassion in World Farming is that there are good national standards of animal welfare. As in the case of bad drivers should we say - 'oh well that person speeds - so they all must break the law so'!. Do bad things  happen? I'm sure they do -  however it does not mean that as in the case of bad drivers it is logical or even right to blame everyone and seek the abolition of all cars or drivers  etc.

Good animal welfare means healthy animals and good returns for farmers. Thankfully we have high animal welfare standards here and those that contravene those standards risk prosecution. The US - loved by the animal 'rights' advocates for the purpose of promoting an anti-farming agenda has signifigantly different standards and much more intensive and industrial type farming.

And it's important to remember - that industrial and intensive US style agriculture does not only apply to animal agriculture. The production of many vegan type foods also relies on intensive and industrial processes to the extent that billions of animals and their ecosystems are destroyed to feed the demands for such products. I've seen it written that veganism is a first world issue as it assumes economic security, ready access to cheap imported  foodstuffs and the leisure to construct an identity. I find that there are some truths in that.

lolo62

gozunda wrote: »

What has been pointed out by the group Compassion in World Farming is that there are good national standards of animal welfare. As in the case of bad drivers should we say - 'oh well that person speeds - so they all must break the law so'!. Do bad things  happen? I'm sure they do -  however it does not mean that as in the case of bad drivers it is logical or even right to blame everyone and seek the abolition of all cars or drivers  etc.

Good animal welfare means healthy animals and good returns for farmers. Thankfully we have high animal welfare standards here and those that contravene those standards risk prosecution. The US - loved by the animal 'rights' advocates for the purpose of promoting an anti-farming agenda has signifigantly different standards and much more intensive and industrial type farming.

And it's important to remember - that industrial and intensive US style agriculture does not only apply to animal agriculture. The production of many vegan type foods also relies on intensive and industrial processes to the extent that billions of animals and their ecosystems are destroyed to feed the demands for such products. I've seen it written that veganism is a first world issue as it assumes economic security, ready access to cheap imported  foodstuffs and the leisure to construct an identity. I find that there are some truths in that.

Just because Compassion in World Farming says standards are good doesn't mean they are. I think the issue for people is the fact that some of the cruelty reported in US, Australia, UK and in Ireland can happen at all is unacceptable. You are comparing this sadistic torture to bad driving which I just don't accept as a comparison. Obviously we have different opinions on what animal welfare is/should be and that's not going to change by arguing on this thread. But my understanding is you see it as just an unfortunate part of the business.
You're also saying the industrial style US agriculture doesn't apply here but I have read that there is a push to increase milk production by 50% by 2020 and another 4% every year after. Sounds to me like much more intensive and industrial style farming. What will that mean for our animal welfare standards?

gozunda

lolo62 wrote: »

Just because Compassion in World Farming says standards are good doesn't mean they are. I think the issue for people is the fact that some of the cruelty reported in US, Australia, UK and in Ireland can happen at all is unacceptable. You are comparing this sadistic torture to bad driving which I just don't accept as a comparison. Obviously we have different opinions on what animal welfare is/should be and that's not going to change by arguing on this thread. But my understanding is you see it as just an unfortunate part of the business.
You're also saying the industrial style US agriculture doesn't apply here but I have read that there is a push to increase milk production by 50% by 2020 and another 4% every year after. Sounds to me like much more intensive and industrial style farming. What will that mean for our animal welfare standards?

And just because you think Irish / EU standards are 'bad' definitely does not make them so. Compassion in World Farming have been around for over 50 years. I will accept there findings over many others.

Note I am comparing nothing. I have presented an analogy for the purpose of clarification only. That I chose 'driving' is irrelevant. That said - your dismissal is unwarranted as deliberate bad driving kills thousands every year and destroys many people's lives.

The point of my last post was to detail that very little if anything that humans endeavour to do will ever be perfect and there are interests who will choose not to work for the common good. That unfortunately is reality.

Neither is the analogy a competition which one is worse - they both exemplify that unfortunately bad things sometimes do happen. And that is not to excuse such things but to acknowledge that all human endeavours have requirements for improvement and legislation.

No one I know would agree with examples of poor treatment seen in the US and Australian videos. I also believe they are videos of the most extreme type and heavily edited - and are then portrayed as "how your farm animals are reared" as if all farming is the same. As per the CIWF article the news is - it's not.

The incidences in this case were prosecuted as should be. However what I find absolutly abhorrent is that many of the extremist groups dealing out those videos of poor animal welfare in a bid to promote their agenda whilst loudly claiming they do not support any improvements in animal welfare whatsover.

Thankfully Ireland benefits from a climate which allows for extensive grass fed animal agriculture and welfare to match. Farms are also largely family owned. Wringing your hands as to what may or may not happen is nothing but futile. In my lifetime animal welfare standards have improved immeasurably. Today those standards are part and parcel of farming in this country.

To conclude I believe you are ignoring the elephant in the room which is the damage that other forms of food production has on non farm animals and natural ecosystems. Much of vegan food relies on relatively cheap imported foods. I would suggest you look first to the damage that such lifestyle choices entail before (metaphorically speaking) attempting to throw someone else's baby out with the bathwater.

Dakota Dan

lolo62 wrote: »

Except they don't group house them after 8 weeks. Despite the fact legally they are supposed to.
I just recently saw footage from a UK farm where calves way older than that are being kept in tiny solitary huts and pens with no interaction with eachother besides leaning over the fences to rub noses. Some have outgrown their huts and have open wounds on their backs from struggling to get in and out of the huts. The farm the footage was taken from was supplier of Marks and Spencer milk.

I'm new to this topic but there is no going back for me since watching some of the videos sent to me by a friend recently. I literally can't believe what's happening in farming on an industrial scale.

The constant push to increase production/profits means less time/energy put into animal care and welfare. What's going on in the US and elsewhere is proof of that.

I'm just so glad that footage is being leaked consistently now and people (my self included) are waking up. My Dad who's retired and been a meat eater/dairy consumer all his life, is now looking into veganism after seeing some of these stories and videos.

I remember that story coming out last year, the calves were younger than 8 weeks kept in hutches with a run outside the hutch. It was blown out of all proportion and the farm was inspected by the authorities and was not found to be in breach of any welfare rules. The paper had to make an apology to the farmer if I remember correctly.

lolo62

gozunda wrote: »

And just because you think Irish / EU standards are 'bad' definitely does not make them so. Compassion in World Farming have been around for over 50 years. I will accept there findings over many others.

Note I am comparing nothing. I have presented an analogy for the purpose of clarification only. That I chose 'driving' is irrelevant. That said - your dismissal is unwarranted as deliberate bad driving kills thousands every year and destroys many people's lives.

The point of my last post was to detail that very little if anything that humans endeavour to do will ever be perfect and there are interests who will choose not to work for the common good. That unfortunately is reality.

Neither is the analogy a competition which one is worse - they both exemplify that unfortunately bad things sometimes do happen. And that is not to excuse such things but to acknowledge that all human endeavours have requirements for improvement and legislation.

No one I know would agree with treatment seen in the US and Australian videos. I also believe they are videos of the most extreme type and heavily edited - and are then portrayed as "how your farm animals are reared" as if all farming is the same. As per the CIWF article the news is - it's not.

The incidences in this case were prosecuted as should be. However what I find absolutly abhorrent is that many of the extremist groups dealing out those videos of poor animal welfare in a bid to promote their agenda whilst loudly claiming they do not support any improvements in animal welfare whatsover.

Thankfully Ireland benefits from a climate which allows for extensive grass fed animal agriculture and welfare to match. Farms are also largely family owned. Wringing your hands as to what may or may not happen is nothing but futile. In my lifetime animal welfare standards have improved immeasurably. Today those standards are part and parcel of farming in this country.

To conclude I believe you are ignoring the elephant in the room which is the damage that other forms of food production has on non farm animals and natural ecosystems. Much of vegan food relies on relatively cheap imported foods. I would suggest you look first to the damage that such lifestyle choices entail before (metaphorically speaking) attempting to throw someone else's baby out with the bathwater.

I amn't attempting to throw someone else's baby out with the bathwater. Nor did I say I think irish/eu standards are bad or that all farming is bad. I think you are hearing that in my being critical of animal torture/abuse within the farming industry. That's not what I'm saying though. I am not an evangelical vegan you meet on the street with a megaphone.

Its just I've recently become aware of some of these cases. I myself used to detest vegans and their (what felt like) high horse, ramming down my throat that I should not use any animal products. It should be a person's choice whether or not they eat meat, use dairy etc. However corporate greed and profit before everything else as priority means animals lives have become commodities and nothing more. I don't accept this.

I don't think the videos are just extreme cases either. I think that the footage is a result of what happens when any living beings are enslaved. I am not saying that all farmers do that...I'm sure most wouldn't dream of it, but the fact it goes on at all has made me completely change my mind about eating meat or dairy. If an industry has gotten that big that farm owners, as in the recent UK pig farm case, don't even know what's going on, and it's going on long enough for animal rights people to get in there with cameras and record it, then that's a major problem. I will be wringing my hands until the cows come home, excuse the pun, with worry for what might happen here as productivity/exports increase.

As for the vegan products I'm not sure what you mean? Palm oil or something? I havent looked that far into the 'vegan diet' My plan is to eat lots of veggies which I am growing in pots in my garden.

odyssey06

Production scandals affect all large scale production. It's not specific to meat dairy and poultry.

https://www.fsai.ie/faq/frozen_berries.html
As a result of outbreaks of norovirus and hepatitis A virus in imported frozen berries across Europe in recent years, the FSAI recommends boiling imported frozen berries for one minute before consumption.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-romaine/cdc-reports-one-death-from-e-coli-outbreak-linked-to-romaine-lettuce-idUSKBN1I32SS
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on Wednesday one person from California died related to an E. coli outbreak linked to romaine lettuce, providing an update on the multi-state outbreak of the disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Germany_E._coli_O104:H4_outbreak
A novel strain of Escherichia coli O104:H4 bacteria caused a serious outbreak of foodborne illness focused in northern Germany in May through June 2011. The illness was characterized by bloody diarrhea, with a high frequency of serious complications, including hemolytic-uremic syndrome (HUS), a condition that requires urgent treatment. The outbreak was originally thought to have been caused by an enterohemorrhagic (EHEC) strain of E. coli, but it was later shown to have been caused by an enteroaggregative E. coli (EAEC) strain that had acquired the genes to produce Shiga toxins, present in organic fenugreek sprouts... In all, 3,950 people were affected and 53 died

lolo62

odyssey06 wrote: »

Production scandals affect all large scale production. It's not specific to meat dairy and poultry.

https://www.fsai.ie/faq/frozen_berries.html
As a result of outbreaks of norovirus and hepatitis A virus in imported frozen berries across Europe in recent years, the FSAI recommends boiling imported frozen berries for one minute before consumption.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-romaine/cdc-reports-one-death-from-e-coli-outbreak-linked-to-romaine-lettuce-idUSKBN1I32SS
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on Wednesday one person from California died related to an E. coli outbreak linked to romaine lettuce, providing an update on the multi-state outbreak of the disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Germany_E._coli_O104:H4_outbreak
A novel strain of Escherichia coli O104:H4 bacteria caused a serious outbreak of foodborne illness focused in northern Germany in May through June 2011. The illness was characterized by bloody diarrhea, with a high frequency of serious complications, including hemolytic-uremic syndrome (HUS), a condition that requires urgent treatment. The outbreak was originally thought to have been caused by an enterohemorrhagic (EHEC) strain of E. coli, but it was later shown to have been caused by an enteroaggregative E. coli (EAEC) strain that had acquired the genes to produce Shiga toxins, present in organic fenugreek sprouts... In all, 3,950 people were affected and 53 died

Good point. Supports my argument that the problem is large scale production.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

And just because you think Irish / EU standards are 'bad' definitely does not make them so. Compassion in World Farming have been around for over 50 years. I will accept there findings over many others..

That’s a nonsense argument.

The Catholic Church have been around a long time and can’t be trusted with their findings.

Just because something exists for a period of time doesn’t mean it should be extended any gravitas.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

The point of my last post was to detail that very little if anything that humans endeavour to do will ever be perfect and there are interests who will choose not to work for the common good. That unfortunately is reality.

Current human endeavour towards the treatment of animals isn’t good enough and isn’t acceptable for more and more people anymore. That is the reality.

Bugsy2012

i dont need you to give the benefit of anything thank you. Your not responsible for vetting my likes or dislikes and I didn't twist anything i'm merely saying whats it got to do with you ?

And for the record I was a farmer up until 2 years ago and what your spouting is utter nonesense. I know first hand how shadey this industry is from actual experience and seeing with my own eyes. Best standards in europe ye ok... Department inspectors who phone ahead to make sure you know there coming. The teagasc grassland site recommending farmers to “chemically clean” ie poison their grasslands every 8 years (was ever 2/3 years but changed this year to every 8) with Roundup and reseed. With this policy in place we can confidently say goodbye to our native grasslands and the wealth of biodiversity they supported and look forward to next years deafeningly silent spring. Destroying Irelands soil like this is not farming but pure vandalism but this is the recommendation of the best organisations in europe hey ?
This is your great standards your speaking of then ? Poison the land so it has to be chemically fertilized because as im sure you already know roundup locks any nutrients in the soil for upto 10 years as well as killing anything living on the land. Win win for big pharma but hey what do I know, your the expert and can quote best practices in europe.
There was an article in the Farmers Journal in the last couple of weeks advocating spraying roundup on a silage field before harvesting? Bet the cattle love that, but then again best standard practice in europe so can't be anything wrong with that can it, it will be in food chain soon enough and they dont test for pesticides at anti or post mortem factory inspections.

ganmo

Bugsy2012 wrote: »

i dont need you to give the benefit of anything thank you. Your not responsible for vetting my likes or dislikes and I didn't twist anything i'm merely saying whats it got to do with you ?

And for the record I was a farmer up until 2 years ago and what your spouting is utter nonesense. I know first hand how shadey this industry is from actual experience and seeing with my own eyes. Best standards in europe ye ok... Department inspectors who phone ahead to make sure you know there coming. The teagasc grassland site recommending farmers to “chemically clean” ie poison their grasslands every 8 years (was ever 2/3 years but changed this year to every 8) with Roundup and reseed. With this policy in place we can confidently say goodbye to our native grasslands and the wealth of biodiversity they supported and look forward to next years deafeningly silent spring. Destroying Irelands soil like this is not farming but pure vandalism but this is the recommendation of the best organisations in europe hey ?
This is your great standards your speaking of then ? Poison the land so it has to be chemically fertilized because as im sure you already know roundup locks any nutrients in the soil for upto 10 years as well as killing anything living on the land. Win win for big pharma but hey what do I know, your the expert and can quote best practices in europe.
There was an article in the Farmers Journal in the last couple of weeks advocating spraying roundup on a silage field before harvesting? Bet the cattle love that, but then again best standard practice in europe so can't be anything wrong with that can it, it will be in food chain soon enough and they dont test for pesticides at anti or post mortem factory inspections.

Jus curious why ya leave farming?

Organic farming is an admirable endeavor but hard to make pay. But roundup is useful in some cases...mostly in tillage operations.

The Dept have to give notice of some inspections but animal welfare inspections can be no notice, the calls are a curtsy

Bugsy2012

Ok lets bring it back on topic.

Male dairy calves culled less than 24 hours old due to not being economically viable, standard practice across the industry and they can be disposed of in slurry pit, buried on the land or disposed of at the factory. Nothing wrong with the calf, perfectly healthy and is only born to keep the mother a milker yet a disposable commodity. This ok ?
Average age of 4 years a milker is spent and goes down, not worth the cost to medicate so goes into the factory to enter the food chain.

I cared for my neighbours cows when she was in hospital, 2 oldest are 20 and 21 years old, younger 2 are 17 and 18 years old . calves from the older girls and the only time they were ever bred. Don't see many cows that old in the farming industry because rather than be seen as sentient beings there considered a commodity and have to draw a profit.

Day old male chicks killed by maceration alive. whether free range, organic, or battery cage makes no difference, they are considered redundant to the egg-laying industries, but what a horrendous way to die for a sentient being with no economical value to the poultry industry. Standard practice though.

Piglets tail docked and castrated without sedative or pain relief again standard practice and ok by the department.

_Brian

I welcome these videos, the exposure of poor practice and hopefully prosecutions tuat result.

We need this to happen.

We need to remove anyone from the husbandry of live animals that doesn’t care for them properly.

We need employees to feel safe to speak up against employers who are breaking the rules.

I’m not so innocent as to believe it never happens, but I’m informed enough to know it isn’t the norm. I’ve been on farms from US, UK, Ire and China and met with people who were passionate about treating animals well and this is the norm, it’s also the basic level of respect we should accept.

It’s important that all this exposure is used to remove unsuitable workers and practice and continue to improve the husbandry of live animals. Farming isn’t going away and this is but one essential tool to improve it.

ganmo

Bugsy2012 wrote: »

Ok lets bring it back on topic.

Male dairy calves culled less than 24 hours old due to not being economically viable, standard practice across the industry and they can be disposed of in slurry pit, buried on the land or disposed of at the factory. Nothing wrong with the calf, perfectly healthy and is only born to keep the mother a milker yet a disposable commodity. This ok ?
Average age of 4 years a milker is spent and goes down, not worth the cost to medicate so goes into the factory to enter the food chain.

I cared for my neighbours cows when she was in hospital, 2 oldest are 20 and 21 years old, younger 2 are 17 and 18 years old . calves from the older girls and the only time they were ever bred. Don't see many cows that old in the farming industry because rather than be seen as sentient beings there considered a commodity and have to draw a profit.

Day old male chicks killed by maceration alive. whether free range, organic, or battery cage makes no difference, they are considered redundant to the egg-laying industries, but what a horrendous way to die for a sentient being with no economical value to the poultry industry.

Killing bull calves does not happen. If you know of it happening please report it.
If a farmer can only keep cows milking for 4 years he’s in trouble. 8 years would be closer to standard.
I can’t comment on your poultry claims cause I’ve no experience in that industry

This is a very damning article and seems like Irish consumers are most likely eating chicken imported from Thailand or Eastern Europe. Again I wonder what their standards are like.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/end-of-the-road-for-irish-chicken-1.585508

Mooooo

Bugsy2012 wrote: »

Ok lets bring it back on topic.

Male dairy calves culled less than 24 hours old due to not being economically viable, standard practice across the industry and they can be disposed of in slurry pit, buried on the land or disposed of at the factory. Nothing wrong with the calf, perfectly healthy and is only born to keep the mother a milker yet a disposable commodity. This ok ?
Average age of 4 years a milker is spent and goes down, not worth the cost to medicate so goes into the factory to enter the food chain.

I cared for my neighbours cows when she was in hospital, 2 oldest are 20 and 21 years old, younger 2 are 17 and 18 years old . calves from the older girls and the only time they were ever bred. Don't see many cows that old in the farming industry because rather than be seen as sentient beings there considered a commodity and have to draw a profit.

Day old male chicks killed by maceration alive. whether free range, organic, or battery cage makes no difference, they are considered redundant to the egg-laying industries, but what a horrendous way to die for a sentient being with no economical value to the poultry industry. Standard practice though.

Piglets tail docked and castrated without sedative or pain relief again standard practice and ok by the department.

Your first paragraphs tbh make me think bull**** to your claim that you were a farmer. Don't know much about pig and poultry so will stick.to what I know. Have had cows here still milking at 17 years old. All bull calves are sold to beef farmers not culled at a day old. I know of no farm, and I've been on a lot, of where what you say happens

_Brian

Bugsy2012’s claims that farmers kill calves less than 24 hours old and dump or bury them is nonsense for Irish farming.
All calves other than heifers suitable for milking are sold onto beef farmers like myself who rear them on.

With traceability systems in place a farmer trying this would quickly have a department visit to see what was going on with so many cows in the herd having no registered calves yet milking away. Seriously the department keep a tight eye on this stuff and irregularities are followed up with swiftly.

Cows aren’t killed off at 4YO, a healthy cow will be in the herd producing well up to 12-14 years of age.
Cows are only culled young if they have problems with fertility, calving difficulties or poor temperament. I’d say the % of cows in Ireland being culled at 4 years is tiny.

My experience is that even with fertility issues cows are kept on and given another season to prove in calf. It’s actually a problem on beef farms and most are carrying empty cows in the hopes that they prove in calf next year, it is a major cause of non viability in herds due to the expense of keeping a cow for a year. This “give her a chance” attitude stems from a real care for animals and their lives.
It takes €600 to keep a cow for a year, profit for beef farmers is typically €300, so for every empty cow it takes two productive cows to keep her and suddenly your keeping three cows for no profit.

I appreciate people are against farming, we’re all entitled to our position, but it’s important that people know facts rather than spouting propaganda from sensational reports on the internet.

Tar.Aldarion

Half the posts on this thread have been deleted, halt the childish bickering, no personal comments and talk about the facts of the scandals/industry only. Will have to start banning people soon otherwise.

gozunda

_Brian wrote: »

Bugsy2012’s claims that farmers kill calves less than 24 hours old and dump or bury them is nonsense for Irish farming.
All calves other than heifers suitable for milking are sold onto beef farmers like myself who rear them on.

With traceability systems in place a farmer trying this would quickly have a department visit to see what was going on with so many cows in the herd having no registered calves yet milking away. Seriously the department keep a tight eye on this stuff and irregularities are followed up with swiftly.

Cows aren’t killed off at 4YO, a healthy cow will be in the herd producing well up to 12-14 years of age.
Cows are only culled young if they have problems with fertility, calving difficulties or poor temperament. I’d say the % of cows in Ireland being culled at 4 years is tiny.

My experience is that even with fertility issues cows are kept on and given another season to prove in calf. It’s actually a problem on beef farms and most are carrying empty cows in the hopes that they prove in calf next year, it is a major cause of non viability in herds due to the expense of keeping a cow for a year. This “give her a chance” attitude stems from a real care for animals and their lives.
It takes €600 to keep a cow for a year, profit for beef farmers is typically €300, so for every empty cow it takes two productive cows to keep her and suddenly your keeping three cows for no profit.

I appreciate people are against farming, we’re all entitled to our position, but it’s important that people know facts rather than spouting propaganda from sensational reports on the internet.

This ^^^

Tar.Aldarion

The killing of chicks does happen here (it's good that there is somewhere where that does not happen, which place is that?), it's a worldwide standard as it is just economical. There have been steps in Germany to stop it (checking eggs sex before they are born) but I believe there wass pushback as there is a marginal increase in price to stop these millions of deaths there.
I don't know what the state of things are there now as I last read about that two years ago.

That kind of sums up a big problem, people are forced to do what is economical and animals are a business to a lot of people. If I'm losing money or I simply want to earn more money, then adding 1 cent to the price of an egg to not take part in killing chicks is seen as too much, kill millions a year shortly after birth instead is preferable if it is legal.

It's the same reason dairy cows are killed at earlier ages in general, is it more economical to kill and replace the cow now? Then do it. This worsens when trade is global, which it inevitably is. Other countries with lower standards sell a huge amount of products here. They have less costs involved with care and also have a cheaper economy to work under.

What can a chicken or egg producer do then to keep up with ever cheaper and cheaper prices from other countries? You have to make your products cheaper, you have to produce more and scale to reduce costs per unit, you have to put yourself and your family first and unfortunately the animals are the ones that can take the brunt. I think that is something that will worsen over time as smaller farms become less economical.

Mooooo

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

The killing of chicks does happen here (it's good that there is somewhere where that does not happen, which place is that?), it's a worldwide standard as it is just economical. There have been steps in Germany to stop it (checking eggs sex before they are born) but I believe there wass pushback as there is a marginal increase in price to stop these millions of deaths there.
I don't know what the state of things are there now as I last read about that two years ago.

That kind of sums up a big problem, people are forced to do what is economical and animals are a business to a lot of people. If I'm losing money or I simply want to earn more money, then adding 1 cent to the price of an egg to not take part in killing chicks is seen as too much, kill millions a year shortly after birth instead is preferable if it is legal.

It's the same reason dairy cows are killed at earlier ages in general, is it more economical to kill and replace the cow now? Then do it. This worsens when trade is global, which it inevitably is. Other countries with lower standards sell a huge amount of products here. They have less costs involved with care and also have a cheaper economy to work under.

What can a chicken or egg producer do then to keep up with ever cheaper and cheaper prices from other countries? You have to make your products cheaper, you have to produce more and scale to reduce costs per unit, you have to put yourself and your family first and unfortunately the animals are the ones that can take the brunt. I think that is something that will worsen over time as smaller farms become less economical.

And what is the reason for that.? The consumer wants cheap food, and the supermarkets and processors force the price down and squeeze the margins on the farmers supplying them till they are left with little other choice. As I said in another thread the way to influence is buy free range produce and Irish beef and dairy. Grass is our main feedstock for beef and dairy. We don't have the food bi products and waste that other countries have so making use of grass as much as possible is our way of farming.
It's not just beef and dairy supermarkets do this to. Talk to any veg farmer in north Dublin and see the pressure put on them to have perfectly shaped veg of the right size and at feck all margin or they'll be replaced by stuff grown in a greenhouse in spain

gozunda

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

The killing of chicks does happen here (it's good that there is somewhere where that does not happen, which place is that?), it's a worldwide standard as it is just economical. There have been steps in Germany to stop it (checking eggs sex before they are born) but I believe there wass pushback as there is a marginal increase in price to stop these millions of deaths there.
I don't know what the state of things are there now as I last read about that two years ago.

That kind of sums up a big problem, people are forced to do what is economical and animals are a business to a lot of people. If I'm losing money or I simply want to earn more money, then adding 1 cent to the price of an egg to not take part in killing chicks is seen as too much, kill millions a year shortly after birth instead is preferable if it is legal.

It's the same reason dairy cows are killed at earlier ages in general, is it more economical to kill and replace the cow now? Then do it. This worsens when trade is global, which it inevitably is. Other countries with lower standards sell a huge amount of products here. They have less costs involved with care and also have a cheaper economy to work under.

What can a chicken or egg producer do then to keep up with ever cheaper and cheaper prices from other countries? You have to make your products cheaper, you have to produce more and scale to reduce costs per unit, you have to put yourself and your family first and unfortunately the animals are the ones that can take the brunt. I think that is something that will worsen over time as smaller farms become less economical.

Ok where is that?

I would tend to disagree with that conclusion. My own experience here is that regulations in farming and food production have got much tougher over the last couple of decades and welfare standards are consistently held to very high level. Inspection is a norm and those that don't meet those standards can't do business. It's that simple.

Not every one wants cheap (and often nasty) imported foodstuffs. This is also a significant factor in vegan diets which often rely on cheap imported foods.

The buyer / consumer needs to know that.

So how much meat does Ireland import from the UK annually ?

https://youtu.be/IVGR1N2Pl00

_Brian

Deleted User wrote: »

So how much meat does Ireland import from the UK annually ?

https://youtu.be/IVGR1N2Pl00

Ireland would be a net exporter of beef, we export something like 80% of what we produce. I’m not saying we don’t import some beef from the U.K. but on the greater scheme it can’t be substantial.
It’s concerning that the U.K. have recently decided to allow feedlots for cattle, it’s not a proper farming method and more of an industrial system.

gozunda

Mooooo wrote: »

Your first paragraphs tbh make me think bull**** to your claim that you were a farmer. Don't know much about pig and poultry so will stick.to what I know. Have had cows here still milking at 17 years old. All bull calves are sold to beef farmers not culled at a day old. I know of no farm, and I've been on a lot, of where what you say happens

(Oopps thought I had included this earlier ...)

The details on poultry are also incorrect.

Irish poultry production is highly regulated
Irish chickens are monitored by law by the Department of Agriculture, Bord Bia and the Environmental Protection Agency.

I also know of a number of organic and free range enterprises where no 'marceration' whatsoever is involved in the hatching and rearing of poultry.

And despite claims made about all male chickens here (which appears to come from the usual sensationalist youtube videos)  - In  Ireland I know of at least one large scale poultry producer that rears both pullets and cocks are with a large percentage of cocks being produced for the Sunday roast.

_Brian

One thing that should be particularly important for Ireland is a regulator for farm produce.

The current system where farmers are price takers is forcing out the family farm in favour for larger and larger style farms. I don’t see this as a positive move. Currently a processor makes multiple of what a farmer makes per head of beef and they probably handle the animal for 14-20days where the farmer would have farmed the animal for a number of years.

Keeping family style farms profitable is a positive for animal welfare. The animals are much more likely to be properly treated. The vast majority if not all the nasty videos posted are off factory style industrial farms rather than your traditional family style holding.

_Brian

I’m going to throw this out here and possibly be shot down.

From the various threads it’s obvious there is major concern among the v&v community regarding farming animals and I can understand that considering the videos and images seen.

Are ye not concerned with how soy, fruit and veg is produced?

I see no threads on the awful conditions workers endure or the damage done by plastic and fertiliser abuses.

https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html

In 2016 Ireland imported 22,000 tonnes of beef from Britain.

ganmo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In 2016 Ireland imported 22,000 tonnes of beef from Britain.

...and?

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.

So where are you rashers coming from ?

http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.
So where are you rashers coming from ?
http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

'Your? May I ask who is this directed at?

I find the placement of the 'information' a bit odd at best. This is the vegan & vegetarian forum and neither group eat 'pork' ...



Btw rashers are classified as 'bacon' not pork. But I reckon you know that already.

More relevant imo.

A SEARCH of 'An Irish Flora by Webb Parnell and Doogue shows that Almond trees are not native nor grown commercially in Ireland.

So where are your Almonds coming from ?

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellness/the-unhealthy-truth-about-almond-milk-20151109-gkupts.html

Bugsy2012

Deleted User wrote: »

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.

So where are you rashers coming from ?

http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

Poland where industry standards are very relaxed.

Its supply and demand, people want cheap cuts so it has to come from somewhere, but once processed and packaged up who really wants to see the paper trail of its origin once its in there trolley.

Poultry the same, reared in Poland, processed in France/Germany, packaged in Ireland, all inside the EU so people see an irish flag on the label and assume is 100% irish

Cost drives the market not ethics or sustainability. Small scale farmer gets squeezed out and big industry dictates price.

I’ve also seen that 90% of chicken sold in Ireland comes from Thailand or Brazil.

Pretty damning figures.

Does your average joe know this ?

Can’t imagine either of those countries have much in terms of standards or regulations in relations to ‘animal welfare’.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/finance/chicken-in-catering-sector-90-sourced-from-outside-ireland-208213.html

ganmo

Deleted User wrote: »

I’ve also seen that 90% of chicken sold in Ireland comes from Thailand or Brazil.

Pretty damning figures.

Does your average joe know this ?

Can’t imagine either of those countries have much in terms of standards or regulations in relations to ‘animal welfare’.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/finance/chicken-in-catering-sector-90-sourced-from-outside-ireland-208213.html

i think the headline you saw was '90% of chicken used in catering is imported

http://www.safefood.eu/SafeFood/media/SafeFoodLibrary/Documents/Publications/Research%20Reports/Where-does-our-food-come-from_-Booklet.pdf

ganmo

ganmo wrote: »

i think the headline you saw was '90% of chicken used in catering is imported

http://www.safefood.eu/SafeFood/media/SafeFoodLibrary/Documents/Publications/Research%20Reports/Where-does-our-food-come-from_-Booklet.pdf

I know.

Can you imagine for every 9 meals with chicken someone has ordered in a restaurant that 9 of those chickens could be from Thailand or Brazil ?

For every 10 chicken sandwiches bought 9 of those are effectively from Thailand or Brazil .

Unreal.

So when you leave your home and eat chicken for every 10 you eat 9 will have come from Thailand or Brazil.

I’ll need to find some farming videos from Thailand and Brazil.

ganmo

also that headline was 6 years ago. things hopefully have changed since.

but you are hyping it a bit too much 85% of our chicken is home produced https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/msb/meatsupplybalance2015/

ganmo

ganmo wrote: »

also that headline was 6 years ago. things hopefully have changed since.

but you are hyping it a bit too much 85% of our chicken is home produced https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/msb/meatsupplybalance2015/

Hopefully ? Not sure the public would like ‘hopefully’.

Yeah but 90% of chicken bought outside the home is from Thailand or Brazil.

So what do they do in raising animals for food.

I’ll have to look into it.

So how much Irish meat is exported and how much is imported ? And why ?

If Ireland export so much beef why are they importing so much ?

ganmo

Deleted User wrote: »

Hopefully ? Not sure the public would like ‘hopefully’.

Yeah but 90% of chicken bought outside the home is from Thailand or Brazil.

So what do they do in raising animals for food.

I’ll have to look into it.

no thats not what the headline was. its 90% from outside ireland, meaning EU and the rest of the world

wonski

If you avoid processed foods you will avoid most of the issues connected to imported food of unknown origin.

I don't remember I have ever seen fresh non Irish meat on the shelves. Maybe some from UK or NI, but not in last few years.

If you buy some processed oven ready chicken goujons you never know.

After the horse meat scandal both the regulations and practices of Irish factories have been tightened up and improved.

I work in food industry and while I don't overlook the conditions on the farms, I have done some factories tours and was impressed with how things changed.
While it is not a pretty view, you have to realize that growing animals for food purposes is not pretty. What is normal for the industry and considered as being animal friendly and treating animal wellbeing seriously, will put some people off meat for weeks.

In my opinion Irish farmers take good care of the animals and there are strict controls in place to ensure healthy animals and safe food later in the process.

ganmo

ganmo wrote: »

no thats not what the headline was. its 90% from outside ireland, meaning EU and the rest of the world

Still though. I doubt most Irish people are aware of this.

_Brian

Deleted User wrote: »

Still though. I doubt most Irish people are aware of this.

I think the big culprits here are take aways
Irish eat a ridiculous amount of fast food, all cheap and nasty, I doubt the style of people eating chicken wings three or four times a week care, I wish they did, but they just don’t, if they even cared about themselves they wouldn’t be stuffing their faces with trash food on the first place.

_Brian

wonski wrote: »

If you avoid processed foods you will avoid most of the issues connected to imported food of unknown origin.

I don't remember I have ever seen fresh non Irish meat on the shelves. Maybe some from UK or NI, but not in last few years.

If you buy some processed oven ready chicken goujons you never know.

After the horse meat scandal both the regulations and practices of Irish factories have been tightened up and improved.

I work in food industry and while I don't overlook the conditions on the farms, I have done some factories tours and was impressed with how things changed.
While it is not a pretty view, you have to realize that growing animals for food purposes is not pretty. What is normal for the industry and considered as being animal friendly and treating animal wellbeing seriously, will put some people off meat for weeks.

In my opinion Irish farmers take good care of the animals and there are strict controls in place to ensure healthy animals and safe food later in the process.

There is an amount of non Irish fresh meat on the shelves but it’s easily avoided with minimal effort.
One of our local veg shops has a fresh meat counter and I searched every piece and non was origin Ireland. Turkeys and chicken from the U.K., pork from Netherlands. We left a trolley with maybe €80 of veg sitting in the isle over it, I just couldn’t support this behaviour. It’s pure profit over produce and it’s disgusting

monkeynuz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A SURVEY OF Irish butchers has found that nearly a third of pork sold as ‘Irish’ was not from this country.

So where are you rashers coming from ?

http://www.thejournal.ie/pork-dna-tracing-1940879-Feb2015/

From an organic farm in Ireland and they cost us the princely sum of >€7 for four rashers and they are delicious!

Not everyone wants cheap mass produced food, but we did have a hard time finding organic/free range meat producers and then finding ones who do mail order was even more difficult.

gozunda

wonski wrote: »

If you avoid processed foods you will avoid most of the issues connected to imported food of unknown origin.

I don't remember I have ever seen fresh non Irish meat on the shelves. Maybe some from UK or NI, but not in last few years.

If you buy some processed oven ready chicken goujons you never know.

After the horse meat scandal both the regulations and practices of Irish factories have been tightened up and improved.

I work in food industry and while I don't overlook the conditions on the farms, I have done some factories tours and was impressed with how things changed.
While it is not a pretty view, you have to realize that growing animals for food purposes is not pretty. What is normal for the industry and considered as being animal friendly and treating animal wellbeing seriously, will put some people off meat for weeks.

In my opinion Irish farmers take good care of the animals and there are strict controls in place to ensure healthy animals and safe food later in the process.

^^^This. There was a farming program on TV a couple of months ago and they were interviewing a farmer in relation to the fodder shortage.

Asked how he was managing, the farmer replied "it doesn't really matter whether you're hungry or tired - the animals come first"

This is my experience of Farming in Ireland ...

Tar.Aldarion

_Brian wrote: »

I’m going to throw this out here and possibly be shot down.

From the various threads it’s obvious there is major concern among the v&v community regarding farming animals and I can understand that considering the videos and images seen.

Are ye not concerned with how soy, fruit and veg is produced?

I see no threads on the awful conditions workers endure or the damage done by plastic and fertiliser abuses.

https://www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html

In this thread that would be whataboutism, if you want me to make a new thread with this post I can move it in there.

gozunda wrote: »

Ok where is that?

I would tend to disagree with that conclusion. My own experience here is that regulations in farming and food production have got much tougher over the last couple of decades and welfare standards are consistently held to very high level. Inspection is a norm and those that don't meet those standards can't do business. It's that simple.

Not every one wants cheap (and often nasty) imported foodstuffs. This is also a significant factor in vegan diets which often rely on cheap imported foods.

The buyer / consumer needs to know that.

Every single hatchery in the country, in every country, that I know of (mother worked for Dept of Agriculture for decades). An example is Whitakers which supply half of that Irish market.

What place/s is it you speak of that this does not happen?
I would be interesting in talking to them.

Mooooo wrote: »

And what is the reason for that.? The consumer wants cheap food, and the supermarkets and processors force the price down and squeeze the margins on the farmers supplying them till they are left with little other choice. As I said in another thread the way to influence is buy free range produce and Irish beef and dairy. Grass is our main feedstock for beef and dairy. We don't have the food bi products and waste that other countries have so making use of grass as much as possible is our way of farming.
It's not just beef and dairy supermarkets do this to. Talk to any veg farmer in north Dublin and see the pressure put on them to have perfectly shaped veg of the right size and at feck all margin or they'll be replaced by stuff grown in a greenhouse in spain

The consumer is heavily to blame and always will be for the foreseeable future, they will buy what they can get away with for the most part, that's generally why things are restricted at above a consumer level. If I hadn't gone vegan I doubt I would have then made further steps to now buy ethical clothing and so on, we don't think about these things and have to add them incrementally. The uniform veg thing is ridiculous too.