USC Abolition

Idbatterim · 21-06-2018 6:33pm #1

A few years back fg said they wanted the “temporary “ usc abolished. Renua said their previous flat tax here would never been understood or effectively “fly” with the Irish public and they are right. Here is something easy to understand and that would have broad public support. Usc abolition, can be done over 3-4 budgets I reckon. It can bE funded by economic growth and putting up the vat rate in hospitality which is long over due will raise an extra 500,000,000 a year towards it. There must be a good boost in revenue from the significant enough increase on fuel recently too at the pumps. Before the usual , usc is good because it’s applied to all income etc. all true, but no government here EVER will only target the actual elephant in the room, the marginal rate. So don’t even go there! It’s time to thrive off less than those who shouldered nearly the entire burden of the recession, ie workers!

thomas 123 · 22-06-2018 9:33am

It 100% needs to go. Like everything over the last 10 years its simply not fair.

Its all well and good for the government to set up a rainy day fund with our extra money(brilliant idea, just not when im still paying a temporary tax).

As usual though we as Irish people will do what we do best, sit down and take it.

Inquitus · 22-06-2018 9:37am

USC is here to stay along with property tax and all the rest, just get used to it.

thomas 123 · 22-06-2018 9:48am

Inquitus wrote: »

USC is here to stay along with property tax and all the rest, just get used to it.

Point proven.

doolox · 22-06-2018 9:59am

Or stated to be so as not to frighten the horses.

Income tax was a wartime measure in WW1 and has become a huge source of revenue for the government. The US federal income tax was started sometime after WW1 and was so novel that many gangsters tried to evade it, not so much to save money because they knew the utility and expedience of giving a cut to a fellow gangster organisation with great power, which is how they viewed governments, but to avoid admitting that they were making huge money through illegal acts. They got Al Capone in this manner but he was in a tight spot, declare all his earnings and pay the tax but then prove that he was a bootlegger and racketeer while doing so. Either course of action means Jail.

In many cases governments were not slow to collect taxes and enforce collection on income even if the income was got through illegal acts.

With the advent of CAB, all the government has done is impose a 100% tax on money raised through the commission of illegal acts.

On the flip side these extra taxes have allowed the expansion of welfare, health, education and other services to the masses and a general increase in peoples welfare. However, with modern methods of tax avoidance and peoples reluctance to put in more than a minimum effort to get by when fleeced by high taxes, there is a need for more closer supervision and monitoring in the workplace, more financial scrutiny in commerce and more means testing and monitoring in welfare cases. This all eats up time money and resources with no real tangible benefit to society. It doesn't make people healthier, cleverer or free from want. It is estimated that some US welfare schemes consume up to 80% of their costs in administration and policing for fraud, the end users getting only 20% of the monies spent. This is madness.

Hitman3000 · 22-06-2018 10:05am

I work in a job that requires a considerable amount of overtime because of the nature of the business. However due to the tax rate here I have reached the high rate of tax in my normal 39 hour week. I'm not giving Revenue 52 euro in every 100 euro for my efforts. It's a loose loose for everyone me, my company and Revenue.
Btw USC is going nowhere, it might be renamed but that's it. The fact that there is a huge unfunded public sector pension bill alone should be enough to make people understand why it's going nowhere.

Idbatterim · 22-06-2018 10:14am

The property tax was mentioned. That is one tax that I have no issue with being jacked up to reduce income tax. My gf owns an Apartment in duboin, the property tax is e90!a year! Yet every single thousand euro earned at the marginal rate and they thieve e510 of it off you!

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2018 10:27am

USC is here to stay as are all the other taxes.

It's a one way street.

We'll continue to pay more while receiving less (if that's possible anymore).

Take property tax as an example..

We were told it was to keep our parks tidy, keep the street lights on etc etc.

Over 90% of property tax raised in Wicklow goes directly to fund Irish Water.

That's not to fund our infrastructure, that's just to fund the people sitting there collecting the money so that they can be paid.

Thanks Enda.

Sierra Oscar · 22-06-2018 10:34am

The USC can never be full abolished considering it was never an entirely new tax as it simply replaced both the income levy and the health levy. It was irresponsible for Fine Gael to suggest at the last election that it should be abolished. It widened the tax base which was needed. Yes, reducing it should be examined but widening the tax band for the higher rate of tax should take priority in my view.

thomas 123 · 22-06-2018 11:02am

doolox wrote: »

On the flip side these extra taxes have allowed the expansion of welfare, health, education and other services to the masses and a general increase in peoples welfare. However, with modern methods of tax avoidance and peoples reluctance to put in more than a minimum effort to get by when fleeced by high taxes, there is a need for more closer supervision and monitoring in the workplace, more financial scrutiny in commerce and more means testing and monitoring in welfare cases. This all eats up time money and resources with no real tangible benefit to society. It doesn't make people healthier, cleverer or free from want. It is estimated that some US welfare schemes consume up to 80% of their costs in administration and policing for fraud, the end users getting only 20% of the monies spent. This is madness.

Thats super interesting. Id imagine our own social welfare is not far behind. But there are many bigger financial problems in this country before id start giving out about the social welfare cheats.

Idbatterim · 22-06-2018 11:15am

I just saw a headline on independent.ie, will this upcoming budget give relief to the squeezed middle. Living standards for many are going down. Over half your salary thieved, throw in inflation. Also the issues won’t be eased. Ff and fg adopt a one for everyone in the audience approach come election time, which leads to no change...

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2018 11:24am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ff and fg adopt a one for everyone in the audience approach come election time, which leads to no change...

Leo promised to look after us yet they've been more generous to people on welfare in the last 2 budgets..

I'm all on for looking after our sick and elderly but were not even doing that..

Where is all this money going

thomas 123 · 22-06-2018 11:29am

The magical rainy day fund for the next EU bailout.

relax carry on · 22-06-2018 11:43am

It all really comes down to what sort of society you wish to have. How much do we you want to give towards funding the society you exist in? Tax is the method of funding the society in which you live. The USC is part of that. Remove it and you need something else to take its place. You'll never not need taxation.

You can continually look to improve the way the tax take is spent/invested. You can tinker around the edges by reducing/increasing some rates to hopefully deliver some sort of economic or social benefit. However unless you wish to dismantle the realativly peaceful and prosperous society in which we all live then you are going to need to keep the tax take as is or even increase it if needed.

Using words like theft to talk about the funds which allow the society you exist in to function, has always seemed daft to me. Push for more equity in where the tax burden falls and demand more transparency around how the tax take is spent but don't let your argument be I'm not giving anymore to those f**kers.

By the way, I'd love not pay any tax at all or a lot lot less than I do but I accept that this is the way of the world. Society, terms and conditions apply.

thomas 123 · 22-06-2018 11:48am

relax carry on wrote: »

It all really comes down to what sort of society you wish to have. How much do we you want to give towards funding the society you exist in? Tax is the method of funding the society in which you live. The USC is part of that. Remove it and you need something else to take its place. You'll never not need taxation.

You can continually look to improve the way the tax take is spent/invested. You can tinker around the edges by reducing/increasing some rates to hopefully deliver some sort of economic or social benefit. However unless you wish to dismantle the realativly peaceful and prosperous society in which we all live then you are going to need to keep the tax take as is or even increase it if needed.

Using words like theft to talk about the funds which allow the society you exist in to function, has always seemed daft to me. Push for more equity in where the tax burden falls and demand more transparency around how the tax take is spent but don't let your argument be I'm not giving anymore to those f**kers.

By the way, I'd love not pay any tax at all or a lot lot less than I do but I accept that this is the way of the world. Society, terms and conditions apply.

Ya because if this was removed completely Ireland would sink into the ocean, It was introduced as a "temporary measure" on the 1 January 2011, did we carry around clubs and draw cave paintings before then?

Hitman3000 · 22-06-2018 12:03pm

thomas 123 wrote:

Ya because if this was removed completely Ireland would sink into the ocean, It was introduced as a "temporary measure" on the 1 January 2011, did we carry around clubs and draw cave paintings before then?

90,000 houses a year being built during the good times. Lots of vat, excise and don't forget income tax from the 1000's of building workers. Big tax hole to fill. Money has to come from somewhere. When the bubble burst we were still spending more than we took in . National debt is over 200 billion.

relax carry on · 22-06-2018 12:05pm

thomas 123 wrote: »

Ya because if this was removed completely Ireland would sink into the ocean, It was introduced as a "temporary measure" on the 1 January 2011, did we carry around clubs and draw cave paintings before then?

Part of the reasoning for bringing it in was because of the over reliance on tax take from unstable sources such as stamp duty. It was an attempt to expand the tax base and put it on a more stable footing so it wouldn't be as susceptible to future shocks. The LPT is another example.

Everybody seems to want to go back to the good old days of the Celtic Tiger which was an anomaly. The days where politicians eroded stable tax take by buying elections with giveaway budgets. It's like we have learned nothing at all.

LeinsterDub · 22-06-2018 12:06pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I work in a job that requires a considerable amount of overtime because of the nature of the business. However due to the tax rate here I have reached the high rate of tax in my normal 39 hour week. I'm not giving Revenue 52 euro in every 100 euro for my efforts. It's a loose loose for everyone me, my company and Revenue.
Btw USC is going nowhere, it might be renamed but that's it. The fact that there is a huge unfunded public sector pension bill alone should be enough to make people understand why it's going nowhere.

Applying this logic you'd also not apply for a job that paid over the tax threshold right?

Hitman3000 · 22-06-2018 12:09pm

LeinsterDub wrote:

Applying this logic you'd also not apply for a job that paid over the tax threshold right?

No it wouldn't the first 34,500 is at 20% plus USC and PRSI. The rest is at 40%.

DevLit · 22-06-2018 12:10pm

I only have an issue with USC as long as income tax remains so high.

It disgusting that 40% of your income after earning a low amount 36K. Even remove income tax and only have USC.

Don't reduce the tax take, we need to keep investing in the country. But having multiple bands is a better method than having two.

eagle eye · 22-06-2018 12:14pm

thomas 123 wrote:

As usual though we as Irish people will do what we do best, sit down and take it.

Exactly this.

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

Mongfinder General · 22-06-2018 12:20pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Exactly this.

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

We need to tackle the costs. More than 60% of the budget is spent on welfare and the health service.

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2018 12:23pm

eagle eye wrote: »

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

As someone paying the top rate, I would much prefer to see USC become the new income tax and see the existing PAYE and PRSI abolished.

I'm sick of carrying everyone else in this country.. USC spreads the load in a much fairer fashion.

There are a lot of us who need a break and we need it soon or it will be another water charges issue which by the way i got off my arse and was heavily involved in despite working full time as well.

jjmcclure · 22-06-2018 12:25pm

While USC is seen as an unfair tax, and I would love not to pay it, it isone of the fairest taxes on income in the state.

Everyone working contributes to USC, not just the top earners.

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2018 12:28pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

We need to tackle the costs. More than 60% of the budget is spent on welfare and the health service.

X 1000

Costs and waste.

Imagine the reform we could have if we started eliminating waste.

I see it in every interaction i have with them.

There must be billions of savings in eliminating waste and increasing efficiency.

I always hear this excuse that you can't run it like a private enterprise but i don't see why measures such as performance and productivity can't be introduced in a meaningful way.

And 99% at the top performance rating is not meaningful.

y0ssar1an22 · 22-06-2018 12:30pm

best way to get rid rid of it? make everyone pay it and the same water protest people will have it gone in no time at all.

lawred2 · 22-06-2018 12:32pm

thomas 123 wrote: »

It 100% needs to go. Like everything over the last 10 years its simply not fair.

Its all well and good for the government to set up a rainy day fund with our extra money(brilliant idea, just not when im still paying a temporary tax).

As usual though we as Irish people will do what we do best, sit down and take it.

It's the closest thing we have to 'fair' taxation

PAYE is unfair

LeinsterDub · 22-06-2018 12:36pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

No it wouldn't the first 34,500 is at 20% plus USC and PRSI. The rest is at 40%.

And how is overtime different?

DevLit · 22-06-2018 12:38pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

eagle eye wrote: »

Exactly this.

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

We need to tackle the costs. More than 60% of the budget is spent on welfare and the health service.

100%. We have to much reliance on social welfare.

My parents know a chap who is 40, lives in a 3 bed council house in Howth that he 'inherited' from his parents. The house is worth 450K.

This guy has never worked in his life, and does courses to keep his welfare. Absolute joke. This house should be at least give to a family who would make better use of it.

The health spend is mad as well. There is so much inefficiently. With the money we spend, there is no reason we shouldn't have a top class health system. But any changes that are initiated, and there's strike after strike.

Hitman3000 · 22-06-2018 12:40pm

LeinsterDub wrote:

And how is overtime different?

Simple really if I do overtime I pay 52% tax. I already pay 52% on a 3rd of my standard pay. I have an issue with working more hours than I'm contracted too where Revenue gains more than I do so I don't and as I said I loose as does my company and also Revenue.

thomas 123 · 22-06-2018 12:54pm

DevLit wrote: »

100%. We have to much reliance on social welfare.

My parents know a chap who is 40, lives in a 3 bed council house in Howth that he 'inherited' from his parents. The house is worth 450K.

This guy has never worked in his life, and does courses to keep his welfare. Absolute joke. This house should be at least give to a family who would make better use of it.

The health spend is mad as well. There is so much inefficiently. With the money we spend, there is no reason we shouldn't have a top class health system. But any changes that are initiated, and there's strike after strike.

Things like this a a drop in the ocean compared to the money we spent/spending on the banking bailout/HSE/Nama etc etc, this is what you'll here about the most on TV/radio though, turn the people on each-other, pull the wool over our eyes on the real issues.

USC Abolition

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