USC Abolition

Idbatterim

A few years back fg said they wanted the “temporary “ usc abolished. Renua said their previous flat tax here would never been understood or effectively “fly” with the Irish public and they are right. Here is something easy to understand and that would have broad public support. Usc abolition, can be done over 3-4 budgets I reckon. It can bE funded by economic growth and putting up the vat rate in hospitality which is long over due will raise an extra 500,000,000 a year towards it. There must be a good boost in revenue from the significant enough increase on fuel recently too at the pumps. Before the usual , usc is good because it’s applied to all income etc. all true, but no government here EVER will only target the actual elephant in the room, the marginal rate. So don’t even go there! It’s time to thrive off less than those who shouldered nearly the entire burden of the recession, ie workers!

thomas 123

It 100% needs to go. Like everything over the last 10 years its simply not fair.

Its all well and good for the government to set up a rainy day fund with our extra money(brilliant idea, just not when im still paying a temporary tax).

As usual though we as Irish people will do what we do best, sit down and take it.

Inquitus

USC is here to stay along with property tax and all the rest, just get used to it.

thomas 123

Inquitus wrote: »

USC is here to stay along with property tax and all the rest, just get used to it.

Point proven.

doolox

Or stated to be so as not to frighten the horses.

Income tax was a wartime measure in WW1 and has become a huge source of revenue for the government. The US federal income tax was started sometime after WW1 and was so novel that many gangsters tried to evade it, not so much to save money because they knew the utility and expedience of giving a cut to a fellow gangster organisation with great power, which is how they viewed governments, but to avoid admitting that they were making huge money through illegal acts. They got Al Capone in this manner but he was in a tight spot, declare all his earnings and pay the tax but then prove that he was a bootlegger and racketeer while doing so. Either course of action means Jail.

In many cases governments were not slow to collect taxes and enforce collection on income even if the income was got through illegal acts.

With the advent of CAB, all the government has done is impose a 100% tax on money raised through the commission of illegal acts.

On the flip side these extra taxes have allowed the expansion of welfare, health, education and other services to the masses and a general increase in peoples welfare. However, with modern methods of tax avoidance and peoples reluctance to put in more than a minimum effort to get by when fleeced by high taxes, there is a need for more closer supervision and monitoring in the workplace, more financial scrutiny in commerce and more means testing and monitoring in welfare cases. This all eats up time money and resources with no real tangible benefit to society. It doesn't make people healthier, cleverer or free from want. It is estimated that some US welfare schemes consume up to 80% of their costs in administration and policing for fraud, the end users getting only 20% of the monies spent. This is madness.

Hitman3000

I work in a job that requires a considerable amount of overtime because of the nature of the business. However due to the tax rate here I have reached the high rate of tax in my normal 39 hour week. I'm not giving Revenue 52 euro in every 100 euro for my efforts. It's a loose loose for everyone me, my company and Revenue.
Btw USC is going nowhere, it might be renamed but that's it. The fact that there is a huge unfunded public sector pension bill alone should be enough to make people understand why it's going nowhere.

Idbatterim

The property tax was mentioned. That is one tax that I have no issue with being jacked up to reduce income tax. My gf owns an Apartment in duboin, the property tax is e90!a year! Yet every single thousand euro earned at the marginal rate and they thieve e510 of it off you!

The Bishop Basher

USC is here to stay as are all the other taxes.

It's a one way street.

We'll continue to pay more while receiving less (if that's possible anymore).

Take property tax as an example..

We were told it was to keep our parks tidy, keep the street lights on etc etc.

Over 90% of property tax raised in Wicklow goes directly to fund Irish Water.

That's not to fund our infrastructure, that's just to fund the people sitting there collecting the money so that they can be paid.

Thanks Enda.

Sierra Oscar

The USC can never be full abolished considering it was never an entirely new tax as it simply replaced both the income levy and the health levy. It was irresponsible for Fine Gael to suggest at the last election that it should be abolished. It widened the tax base which was needed. Yes, reducing it should be examined but widening the tax band for the higher rate of tax should take priority in my view.

thomas 123

doolox wrote: »

On the flip side these extra taxes have allowed the expansion of welfare, health, education and other services to the masses and a general increase in peoples welfare. However, with modern methods of tax avoidance and peoples reluctance to put in more than a minimum effort to get by when fleeced by high taxes, there is a need for more closer supervision and monitoring in the workplace, more financial scrutiny in commerce and more means testing and monitoring in welfare cases. This all eats up time money and resources with no real tangible benefit to society. It doesn't make people healthier, cleverer or free from want. It is estimated that some US welfare schemes consume up to 80% of their costs in administration and policing for fraud, the end users getting only 20% of the monies spent. This is madness.

Thats super interesting. Id imagine our own social welfare is not far behind. But there are many bigger financial problems in this country before id start giving out about the social welfare cheats.

Idbatterim

I just saw a headline on independent.ie, will this upcoming budget give relief to the squeezed middle. Living standards for many are going down. Over half your salary thieved, throw in inflation. Also the issues won’t be eased. Ff and fg adopt a one for everyone in the audience approach come election time, which leads to no change...

The Bishop Basher

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ff and fg adopt a one for everyone in the audience approach come election time, which leads to no change...

Leo promised to look after us yet they've been more generous to people on welfare in the last 2 budgets..

I'm all on for looking after our sick and elderly but were not even doing that..

Where is all this money going

thomas 123

The magical rainy day fund for the next EU bailout.

relax carry on

It all really comes down to what sort of society you wish to have. How much do we you want to give towards funding the society you exist in? Tax is the method of funding the society in which you live. The USC is part of that. Remove it and you need something else to take its place. You'll never not need taxation.

You can continually look to improve the way the tax take is spent/invested. You can tinker around the edges by reducing/increasing some rates to hopefully deliver some sort of economic or social benefit. However unless you wish to dismantle the realativly peaceful and prosperous society in which we all live then you are going to need to keep the tax take as is or even increase it if needed.

Using words like theft to talk about the funds which allow the society you exist in to function, has always seemed daft to me. Push for more equity in where the tax burden falls and demand more transparency around how the tax take is spent but don't let your argument be I'm not giving anymore to those f**kers.

By the way, I'd love not pay any tax at all or a lot lot less than I do but I accept that this is the way of the world. Society, terms and conditions apply.

thomas 123

relax carry on wrote: »

It all really comes down to what sort of society you wish to have. How much do we you want to give towards funding the society you exist in? Tax is the method of funding the society in which you live. The USC is part of that. Remove it and you need something else to take its place. You'll never not need taxation.

You can continually look to improve the way the tax take is spent/invested. You can tinker around the edges by reducing/increasing some rates to hopefully deliver some sort of economic or social benefit. However unless you wish to dismantle the realativly peaceful and prosperous society in which we all live then you are going to need to keep the tax take as is or even increase it if needed.

Using words like theft to talk about the funds which allow the society you exist in to function, has always seemed daft to me. Push for more equity in where the tax burden falls and demand more transparency around how the tax take is spent but don't let your argument be I'm not giving anymore to those f**kers.

By the way, I'd love not pay any tax at all or a lot lot less than I do but I accept that this is the way of the world. Society, terms and conditions apply.

Ya because if this was removed completely Ireland would sink into the ocean, It was introduced as a "temporary measure" on the 1 January 2011, did we carry around clubs and draw cave paintings before then?

Hitman3000

thomas 123 wrote:

Ya because if this was removed completely Ireland would sink into the ocean, It was introduced as a "temporary measure" on the 1 January 2011, did we carry around clubs and draw cave paintings before then?

90,000 houses a year being built during the good times. Lots of vat, excise and don't forget income tax from the 1000's of building workers. Big tax hole to fill. Money has to come from somewhere. When the bubble burst we were still spending more than we took in . National debt is over 200 billion.

relax carry on

thomas 123 wrote: »

Ya because if this was removed completely Ireland would sink into the ocean, It was introduced as a "temporary measure" on the 1 January 2011, did we carry around clubs and draw cave paintings before then?

Part of the reasoning for bringing it in was because of the over reliance on tax take from unstable sources such as stamp duty. It was an attempt to expand the tax base and put it on a more stable footing so it wouldn't be as susceptible to future shocks. The LPT is another example.

Everybody seems to want to go back to the good old days of the Celtic Tiger which was an anomaly. The days where politicians eroded stable tax take by buying elections with giveaway budgets. It's like we have learned nothing at all.

LeinsterDub

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I work in a job that requires a considerable amount of overtime because of the nature of the business. However due to the tax rate here I have reached the high rate of tax in my normal 39 hour week. I'm not giving Revenue 52 euro in every 100 euro for my efforts. It's a loose loose for everyone me, my company and Revenue.
Btw USC is going nowhere, it might be renamed but that's it. The fact that there is a huge unfunded public sector pension bill alone should be enough to make people understand why it's going nowhere.

Applying this logic you'd also not apply for a job that paid over the tax threshold right?

Hitman3000

LeinsterDub wrote:

Applying this logic you'd also not apply for a job that paid over the tax threshold right?

No it wouldn't the first 34,500 is at 20% plus USC and PRSI. The rest is at 40%.

DevLit

I only have an issue with USC as long as income tax remains so high.

It disgusting that 40% of your income after earning a low amount 36K. Even remove income tax and only have USC.

Don't reduce the tax take, we need to keep investing in the country. But having multiple bands is a better method than having two.

eagle eye

thomas 123 wrote:

As usual though we as Irish people will do what we do best, sit down and take it.

Exactly this.

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

Mongfinder General

eagle eye wrote: »

Exactly this.

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

We need to tackle the costs. More than 60% of the budget is spent on welfare and the health service.

The Bishop Basher

eagle eye wrote: »

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

As someone paying the top rate, I would much prefer to see USC become the new income tax and see the existing PAYE and PRSI abolished.

I'm sick of carrying everyone else in this country.. USC spreads the load in a much fairer fashion.

There are a lot of us who need a break and we need it soon or it will be another water charges issue which by the way i got off my arse and was heavily involved in despite working full time as well.

jjmcclure

While USC is seen as an unfair tax, and I would love not to pay it, it isone of the fairest taxes on income in the state.


Everyone working contributes to USC, not just the top earners.

The Bishop Basher

Mongfinder General wrote: »

We need to tackle the costs. More than 60% of the budget is spent on welfare and the health service.

X 1000

Costs and waste.

Imagine the reform we could have if we started eliminating waste.

I see it in every interaction i have with them.

There must be billions of savings in eliminating waste and increasing efficiency.

I always hear this excuse that you can't run it like a private enterprise but i don't see why measures such as performance and productivity can't be introduced in a meaningful way.

And 99% at the top performance rating is not meaningful.

y0ssar1an22

best way to get rid rid of it? make everyone pay it and the same water protest people will have it gone in no time at all.

lawred2

thomas 123 wrote: »

It 100% needs to go. Like everything over the last 10 years its simply not fair.

Its all well and good for the government to set up a rainy day fund with our extra money(brilliant idea, just not when im still paying a temporary tax).

As usual though we as Irish people will do what we do best, sit down and take it.

It's the closest thing we have to 'fair' taxation

PAYE is unfair

LeinsterDub

Hitman3000 wrote: »

No it wouldn't the first 34,500 is at 20% plus USC and PRSI. The rest is at 40%.

And how is overtime different?

DevLit

Mongfinder General wrote: »

eagle eye wrote: »

Exactly this.

There are a lot of people here saying that USC is here to stay, that's because they will never stand up and fight for it to be abolished. It's been a big Irish problem since at least when I came on to this Earth in the late sixties.

We need to tackle the costs. More than 60% of the budget is spent on welfare and the health service.

100%. We have to much reliance on social welfare.

My parents know a chap who is 40, lives in a 3 bed council house in Howth that he 'inherited' from his parents. The house is worth 450K.

This guy has never worked in his life, and does courses to keep his welfare. Absolute joke. This house should be at least give to a family who would make better use of it.

The health spend is mad as well. There is so much inefficiently. With the money we spend, there is no reason we shouldn't have a top class health system. But any changes that are initiated, and there's strike after strike.

Hitman3000

LeinsterDub wrote:

And how is overtime different?

Simple really if I do overtime I pay 52% tax. I already pay 52% on a 3rd of my standard pay. I have an issue with working more hours than I'm contracted too where Revenue gains more than I do so I don't and as I said I loose as does my company and also Revenue.

thomas 123

DevLit wrote: »

100%. We have to much reliance on social welfare.

My parents know a chap who is 40, lives in a 3 bed council house in Howth that he 'inherited' from his parents. The house is worth 450K.

This guy has never worked in his life, and does courses to keep his welfare. Absolute joke. This house should be at least give to a family who would make better use of it.

The health spend is mad as well. There is so much inefficiently. With the money we spend, there is no reason we shouldn't have a top class health system. But any changes that are initiated, and there's strike after strike.

Things like this a a drop in the ocean compared to the money we spent/spending on the banking bailout/HSE/Nama etc etc, this is what you'll here about the most on TV/radio though, turn the people on each-other, pull the wool over our eyes on the real issues.

thomas 123

Hitman3000 wrote: »

90,000 houses a year being built during the good times. Lots of vat, excise and don't forget income tax from the 1000's of building workers. Big tax hole to fill. Money has to come from somewhere. When the bubble burst we were still spending more than we took in . National debt is over 200 billion.

Absolutely & this is the logical argument. Not the social collapse of the state that the other guy was on about :P

relax carry on

thomas 123 wrote: »

Absolutely & this is the logical argument. Not the social collapse of the state that the other guy was on about :P

If you bothered to read it you note I didn't sate removing the USC would collapse the state. I gave you part of the reason it was brought in which was to stabilise the tax base. I said that the wider argument people need to have is what kind of society you wish to have. Tax funds that society and the USC is party of that tax fund. Reduce it without replacing it with something else and the society you live in is affected. People always want to pay less tax or let someone else pay more without bothering to think about what it's for. So what society do you want and how do you want to fund it?

Idbatterim

relax carry on wrote: »

Part of the reasoning for bringing it in was because of the over reliance on tax take from unstable sources such as stamp duty. It was an attempt to expand the tax base and put it on a more stable footing so it wouldn't be as susceptible to future shocks. The LPT is another example.

Everybody seems to want to go back to the good old days of the Celtic Tiger which was an anomaly. The days where politicians eroded stable tax take by buying elections with giveaway budgets. It's like we have learned nothing at all.

I’ll tell you what I’ve learned. A large amount of the population are paying nowhere near there fair share and it seems many of us on this thread are being taken for a ride by the bulksjif system we have. Insane income tax rates at a pittance of an income. How much is it actually costing us?

Foxhound38

The people who need to pay the USC are generally too busy working to go out and protest unlike the water charges crowd or those currently looking for us to provide them with furreva homes as soon as they ask for it. Therefore the tax will stay.

As mentioned in the thread, I don't have a problem with a rainy day fund as long as it's ringfenced as such and not what was supposed to be a temporary, emergency measure. The USC is unfit for purpose.

thomas 123

relax carry on wrote: »

If you bothered to read it you note I didn't sate removing the USC would collapse the state. I gave you part of the reason it was brought in which was to stabilise the tax base. I said that the wider argument people need to have is what kind of society you wish to have. Tax funds that society and the USC is party of that tax fund. Reduce it without replacing it with something else and the society you live in is affected. People always want to pay less tax or let someone else pay more without bothering to think about what it's for. So what society do you want and how do you want to fund it?

I read it twice my friend.

1) What notable changes to society in Ireland have you seen since 2011 that are a direct result of the introduction of USC? Thats what im asking.

2)What has USC done for me? how has this impacted me as a full time worker positively?(Please don't say economic growth - that is 100% to do with the rest of the USA/UK/most of Europe/Asia doing well)

I just think your point is ridiculous. Is it wrong for someone to want to pay less tax?

The Bishop Basher

Foxhound38 wrote: »

As mentioned in the thread, I don't have a problem with a rainy day fund as long as it's ringfenced as such and not what was supposed to be a temporary, emergency measure.

How many times do we have to get burned to learn that fire hurts..

The vast majority of people are getting poorer year on year, our services are disintegrating, talk to anyone working in health or the Guards.

Yet were paying more tax then ever.

Austerity, although never talked about any more, is still very much alive and well in Ireland.

thomas 123

DevLit wrote: »

100%. We have to much reliance on social welfare.

My parents know a chap who is 40, lives in a 3 bed council house in Howth that he 'inherited' from his parents. The house is worth 450K.

This guy has never worked in his life, and does courses to keep his welfare. Absolute joke. This house should be at least give to a family who would make better use of it.

The health spend is mad as well. There is so much inefficiently. With the money we spend, there is no reason we shouldn't have a top class health system. But any changes that are initiated, and there's strike after strike.

I think we need to move on from this mindset.

Irish Water was identified as a quango early on and I for one am glad these protests took place.

The only people who really should have any gripe is the GWS people(Of which I am one).

Its our favorite thing to do in Ireland, let a problem develop to the point of no return and then throw money into a black hole, complain about it for a few years, sell it to the highest bidder, pretend there is a fair market and competition (Eircom is an example of this).

Keyzer

USC will never be done away with. Ever.

The sooner you accept this the better. Move on.

thomas 123

Keyzer wrote: »

USC will never be done away with. Ever.

The sooner you accept this the better. Move on.

Sheep No.2 of the afternoon. Would the French accept it I wonder?

Just to note, I note don't mean to personally insult its just a funny mindset we have when it comes to being shafted by our government.

Keyzer

thomas 123 wrote: »

Sheep No.2 of the afternoon. Would the French accept it I wonder?

Just to note, I note don't mean to personally insult its just a funny mindset we have when it comes to being shafted by our government.

I'm no sheep. I abhor USC.

I'm merely stating the obvious. It came into effect with no protests and little or no opposition from the public. Compare that to water charges which caused uproar.

Its never, ever going away.

Idbatterim

Renua should run with usc abolition over 3-4 years. If they actually want to make themselves relevant ...

thomas 123

Keyzer wrote: »

I'm no sheep. I abhor USC.

I'm merely stating the obvious. It came into effect with no protests and little or no opposition from the public. Compare that to water charges which caused uproar.

Its never, ever going away.

Its the unfortunate reality for sure!

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

Renua should run with usc abolition over 3-4 years. If they actually want to make themselves relevant ...

The Renua you talk of ceased to exist in February 2016 and isn't coming back.

MayoSalmon

Any party which campaigns on the reduction of the current Personal Income tax levels and especially the abolition of USC will get my vote.

tom1ie

I don’t mind paying tax if the money is spent efficiently and provide people with good services.
It’s clear to see there is massive wastage of taxpayers money in many areas of the economy, eg
health 15.2 billion spent and record numbers on trolleys in a and e and record outpatient waiting lists all the while fg and ff advocate private health insurance- unacceptable.
Social welfare- you hear examples all the time on these forums of people in heavily subsidized houses that don’t work, which is just not fair on the middle and high income families that have 2 adults out working and high childcare costs.
Childcare costs- any steps taken to reduce these costs only lead to private crèches increasing their costs to absorb the supposed benefit to parents. Tax credits are an obvious way to combat this, which for some reason the government won’t do.
Transport- the constant re design of projects without a shovel being put into the ground is chronic and costing a fortune, eg metro north to metrolink, Swift way to bus connects. None of these projects built yet millions spent on them.

I could go on and on, but this is why I and plenty of others, In fact I would say the majority, feel that tax is in fact robbery.
If it was spent correctly and efficiently then I would have absolutely no problem with it and I guarantee we would have a state of the art public transport system, public health system and top education system.

VinLieger

Getting rid of USC would be insanity. Currently 1/3 of all workers pay zero income tax as they fall outside our archaic tax bracket system. USC is the most progressive tax we have that broadens the tax base and brings this third of workers back into it.


We need a broader tax base than we had in 07/08 to help get us through whatever the next crisis might be as one of the issues we had back then was how much we had narrowed it through endless give away budgets.


If anything we should be increasing USC and decreasing or adjusting the tax brackets to continue broadening the tax base as much as possible.


I do deffinitely agree we need to take a serious look at wastage though. I would suggest first starting with how our tax intake is organised and distributed. One of the big issues we have is the vast majority of tax goes into one giant pot and is then doled out basically on the premise of who has done favours for which department and when. It encourages pork barrel projects and wastage across the board as there is no accountability for what is spent and where.

MayoSalmon

VinLieger wrote: »

Getting rid of USC would be insanity. Currently 1/3 of all workers pay zero income tax as they fall outside our archaic tax bracket system. USC is the most progressive tax we have that broadens the tax base and brings this third of workers back into it.


We need a broader tax base than we had in 07/08 to help get us through whatever the next crisis might be as one of the issues we had back then was how much we had narrowed it through endless give away budgets.


If anything we should be increasing USC and decreasing or adjusting the tax brackets to continue broadening the tax base as much as possible.


I do deffinitely agree we need to take a serious look at wastage though. I would suggest first starting with how our tax intake is organised and distributed. One of the big issues we have is the vast majority of tax goes into one giant pot and is then doled out basically on the premise of who has done favours for which department and when. It encourages pork barrel projects and wastage across the board as there is no accountability for what is spent and where.

The insanity is the vast sums of money the government need to thieve from the peoples wages to fund services....that my friend is the insanity in this matter.

We have the 5th highest health spend per captia in the world..no amount of so called reform is going to turn that mess around. Public healthcare has failed and has failed in the majority of countries in the world. Delivering a more efficient service just cannot be delivered publicly. Lets be honest about it. You only need to look across the water to the UK to acknowledge that.

tom1ie

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The insanity is the vast sums of money the government need to thieve from the peoples wages to fund services....that my friend is the insanity in this matter.

We have the 5th highest health spend per captia in the world..no amount of so called reform is going to turn that mess around. Public healthcare has failed and has failed in the majority of countries in the world. Delivering a more efficient service just cannot be delivered publicly. Lets be honest about it. You only need to look across the water to the UK to acknowledge that.

Well if you look at the Japanese health care model, which has an ageing population, the patient is responsible for paying 10, 20, or 30% of the cost of a treatment depending on age and outcome of a means test and the state picks up the remainder. They have a much smaller expenditure per capita compared to the us for example.
Public health can work but ironically everyone needs to contribute a percentage to the final cost, kind of like everyone paying usc.
However as I stated previously I just don’t like paying tax because it’s poorly spent.

jjmcclure

Unfortunately those in Ireland who are even moderately successful will be expected to pay for those who have not been "as fortunate" (or bothered to get off their ass and work for it).


This group, I call them The Tax Donkeys, will continue to be penalised and pilloried for making over €100k, like they are Pablo Escobar or someone.


No government in Ireland will every tackle

- Taxing everyone in work in a fair fashion
- The grossly inefficient public service
- Taxing state benefits
- Benefit fraud and lifetime (even generational) benefit scroungers


Why? Because they would be voted out by "de mon in de streeat".


Sad but true

Idbatterim

Hundred s of thousands of hard working people here, if they don’t stand up and vote renua and allow the other parties to just blow all their money on welfare etc, they can blame themselves at this stage ... fair to say fg are already looking at rowing back on rewarding the taxpayer etc.