Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

awec · 21-06-2018 11:29AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah right, so by "interesting to see" you actually meant "blatantly obviously to anyone who has been following it, nothing new here"

No one is saying get the pom poms out. Ulster are trying to appoint the right staff in the right positions. It may be there were other coaches available immediately, but those coaches might have been completely the wrong fit. What would you prefer, the right coach arrives a month late or the wrong coach arrives on time and then ****s off mid-season?

Calling this "amateur hour", about something you already knew, as if you know what has happened, is in reality just an excuse to give out. There's nothing new here and very little evidence of actual incompetence.

A month late? How about 6 months late?

Surely being available at the right time is a huge factor in being "the right coach". How can you be "the right coach" if you can't actually coach when you are needed?

Ulster have a huge turnover in players this season. We are coming off the back of a disastrous few years. This is a very important pre-season, the idea that we should be ok with having no head coach in place during it is actually just laughable. Complete nonsense.

Former Former · 21-06-2018 11:32AM

I suppose it depends on how badly Ulster/IRFU wanted McFarland.

If he was the clear favourite, then absolutely it's worth waiting until January or whenever.

If there was another candidate who was just as good but available sooner, then that would be different. But we know that at least one viable candidate was interviewed who would have been available for pre-season, and they passed on him in favour of McFarland. So that tells us something.

It seems to me (and this is just my opinion) that the right man was identified and it was decided that it was better to wait for him. Given the turnover of coaches in recent years, I think it's the right call.

awec · 21-06-2018 11:36AM

Former Former wrote: »

I suppose it depends on how badly Ulster/IRFU wanted McFarland.

If he was the clear favourite, then absolutely it's worth waiting until January or whenever.

If there was another candidate who was just as good but available sooner, then that would be different. But we know that at least one viable candidate was interviewed who would have been available for pre-season, and they passed on him in favour of McFarland. So that tells us something.

It seems to me (and this is just my opinion) that the right man was identified and it was decided that it was better to wait for him. Given the turnover of coaches in recent years, I think it's the right call.

Or perhaps they assumed they'd be able to negotiate him out of his current deal and that has turned out to be a poor assumption? Nucifora says Scotland don't want money, which suggests the idea of compensation was at least brought up at one stage.

I have a really hard time believing that anyone, be that Bryn Cunningham, David Nucifora, Joe Schmidt or Shane Logan, thought it would be ok for Ulster to wait until January.

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 11:37AM

awec wrote: »

Firstly, it's the IRFU and not just Ulster.

And of course they knew. And they still signed him. And now we may not have a head coach in place for pre-season, in what really is a critical time for Ulster Rugby.

We've been down this road before, but we should just get the pom poms out and pretend all is good.

Yes, because people can be either utterly outraged or over the moon happy. There is no middle ground, is there?

Nucifora has clearly said that they'll get some clarity on what is going to happen after the summer tours. While the SRU may have said that they'll be retaining McFarland until January, it really isn't in their interests to do that. So I can see there being a release at some point. The question now is just a matter of when, which we won't find out until the end of the month at the earliest.

I think all AB is saying is that it makes far more sense to wait for a few weeks before assuming anything. There's no point in getting wound up about McFarland not getting here until January if he ends up getting here in July/August. At the end of the day they only went looking for a head coach very late in the season anyway. The last time a province had to do that they had to wait until part way through the season to get a coach in (Munster with JVG). Before that was when Leinster appointed an inexperienced candidate because they couldn't get anyone else. So it was hardly an ideal situation to start with anyway.

21-06-2018 11:39AM

Former Former wrote: »

I suppose it depends on how badly Ulster/IRFU wanted McFarland.

If he was the clear favourite, then absolutely it's worth waiting until January or whenever.

If there was another candidate who was just as good but available sooner, then that would be different. But we know that at least one viable candidate was interviewed who would have been available for pre-season, and they passed on him in favour of McFarland. So that tells us something.

It seems to me (and this is just my opinion) that the right man was identified and it was decided that it was better to wait for him. Given the turnover of coaches in recent years, I think it's the right call.

I'd rather wait 6 months for the best possible person than settle for a lesser option because of a notice period. I can't think of a single employer who wouldn't have the same approach so I agree with your post FF.

Changing topic slightly but unless I'm missing something it's a bit damning that none of JJ Hanrahan, Ian Keatley or Tyler Blyeaslknsa were interested in going to Ulster. I very much doubt that Carbery got concrete assurances he would be starting 10, but I'd say he was given good indications that he would be give prime position to prove himself. I can't imagine that the above mentioned players are ignorant to this and given that two aren't from the province and one has moved once before it's startling to me that none have opted to take (what is probably a lucrative) step to try and spearhead Ulster.

I thought the worst thing that could happen would be for Carbery to turn his nose up at Ulster and for the likes of Keatley to go instead. That would be a bit of a kick in the teeth, but that they all refused it actually worse.

I know things aren't great up north but are they that bad or am I missing something? I'm possibly over simplifying things given the players could be settled where they are but still, It's very surprising.

awec · 21-06-2018 11:40AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Yes, because people can be either utterly outraged or over the moon happy. There is no middle ground, is there?

Nucifora has clearly said that they'll get some clarity on what is going to happen after the summer tours. While the SRU may have said that they'll be retaining McFarland until January, it really isn't in their interests to do that. So I can see there being a release at some point. The question now is just a matter of when, which we won't find out until the end of the month at the earliest.

I think all AB is saying is that it makes far more sense to wait for a few weeks before assuming anything. There's no point in getting wound up about McFarland not getting here until January if he ends up getting here in July/August. At the end of the day they only went looking for a head coach very late in the season anyway. The last time a province had to do that they had to wait until part way through the season to get a coach in (Munster with JVG). Before that was when Leinster appointed an inexperienced candidate because they couldn't get anyone else. So it was hardly an ideal situation to start with anyway.

Why not?

They can retain him and not use him, looks like they've already got a replacement. Seems very much in their interests to do that.

awec · 21-06-2018 11:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd rather wait 6 months for the best possible person than settle for a lesser option because of a notice period. I can't think of a single employer who wouldn't have the same approach so I agree with your post FF.

Changing topic slightly but unless I'm missing something it's a bit damning that none of JJ Hanrahan, Ian Keatley or Tyler Blyeaslknsa were interested in going to Ulster. I very much doubt that Carbery got concrete assurances he would be starting 10, but I'd say he was given good indications that he would be give prime position to prove himself. I can't imagine that the above mentioned players are ignorant to this and given that two aren't from the province and one has moved once before it's startling to me that none have opted to take (what is probably a lucrative) step to try and spearhead Ulster.

I thought the worst thing that could happen would be for Carbery to turn his nose up at Ulster and for the likes of Keatley to go instead. That would be a bit of a kick in the teeth, but that they all refused it actually worse.

I know things aren't great up north but are they that bad or am I missing something? I'm possibly over simplifying things given the players could be settled where they are but still. It's very surprising.

Why do you think the Munster players refused Ulster?

Also, they tried this waiting for months thing for "the right guy" the last time and he turned out to be hopeless. You'll forgive out skepticism.

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 11:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd rather wait 6 months for the best possible person than settle for a lesser option because of a notice period. I can't think of a single employer who wouldn't have the same approach so I agree with your post FF.

Changing topic slightly but unless I'm missing something it's a bit damning that none of JJ Hanrahan, Ian Keatley or Tyler Blyeaslknsa were interested in going to Ulster. I very much doubt that Carbery got concrete assurances he would be starting 10, but I'd say he was given good indications that he would be give prime position to prove himself. I can't imagine that the above mentioned players are ignorant to this and given that two aren't from the province and one has moved once before it's startling to me that none have opted to take (what is probably a lucrative) step to try and spearhead Ulster.

I thought the worst thing that could happen would be for Carbery to turn his nose up at Ulster and for the likes of Keatley to go instead. That would be a bit of a kick in the teeth, but that they all refused it actually worse.

I know things aren't great up north but are they that bad or am I missing something? I'm possibly over simplifying things given the players could be settled where they are but still. It's very surprising.

The performances in the season just gone as well as the turnover in playing and non-playing staff would turn a lot of people off. Why move from a club that was playing SFs in both Europe and the league for a team that barely scraped into Europe and were last in the league knock-outs 2 years ago?

I think at the end of the day Ulster need to go on a rebuilding project. And that's going to take time. Not having a coach for a couple of months at the start of that isn't going to be that big a deal when you look at the bigger picture. I do get that it's frustrating, but there's very little can be done when your head coach resigns with 2-3 months left in the season.

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 11:48AM

awec wrote: »

Why not?

They can retain him and not use him, looks like they've already got a replacement. Seems very much in their interests to do that.

What!? You realise that post makes no sense, right? For something to be of interest to someone, they must be gaining something from it. What do they gain in that scenario? I mean they'll still be paying for him, not just his salary, but also the various employer costs associated with having him on the books. So they are definitely at a loss financially. Where's the gain for them?

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 11:53AM

awec wrote: »

Why do you think the Munster players refused Ulster?

Also, they tried this waiting for months thing for "the right guy" the last time and he turned out to be hopeless. You'll forgive out skepticism.

There's nothing wrong with being sceptical. You're right to be. But there's a substantial difference between scepticism and outrage. There was no way to know how Kiss would pan out. Just like there was no way to know how MOC or Kieran Keane would pan out. Leinster took a punt on an unknown fella about 12 years ago who took them to their first HEC and is now coaching the 3rd ranked side in the world.

Nobody ever knows how these things are going to go. Ever. You've just got to make the best decisions you can at a point in time. If you're good at your job then most of the time those decisions will work out. But you'll never get a 100% success rate.

Also, pointing the finger externally misses the very real possibility that there could well be cultural issues and more within Ulster itself. And the more they eat through coaches, players and support staff the more likely that begins to look.

21-06-2018 11:57AM

awec wrote: »

Also, they tried this waiting for months thing for "the right guy" the last time and he turned out to be hopeless. You'll forgive out skepticism.

I once ate in a bad restaurant so I've stopped going out for food now. Just because something happened once and had a negative outcome, doesn't necessarily mean the rationale isn't sound. I'm also sceptical, but I'd be no more or less sceptical if the coach was starting next week or January because my scepticism would be based on whether he can do what several other coaches have tried and failed to do, not on whether he can start straight away.

awec wrote: »

Why do you think the Munster players refused Ulster?

There could be reasons that are specific to them and their families and their location. Or, there could be hesitation due to reputational issues in Ulster.

I don't have any great amount of insight, I'm just trying to make an observation based on the optics.

awec · 21-06-2018 11:57AM

molloyjh wrote: »

What!? You realise that post makes no sense, right? For something to be of interest to someone, they must be gaining something from it. What do they gain in that scenario? I mean they'll still be paying for him, not just his salary, but also the various employer costs associated with having him on the books. So they are definitely at a loss financially. Where's the gain for them?

How does it not make sense?

You realise the SRU have two teams in the Pro14, right?

awec · 21-06-2018 11:58AM

molloyjh wrote: »

The performances in the season just gone as well as the turnover in playing and non-playing staff would turn a lot of people off. Why move from a club that was playing SFs in both Europe and the league for a team that barely scraped into Europe and were last in the league knock-outs 2 years ago?

I think at the end of the day Ulster need to go on a rebuilding project. And that's going to take time. Not having a coach for a couple of months at the start of that isn't going to be that big a deal when you look at the bigger picture. I do get that it's frustrating, but there's very little can be done when your head coach resigns with 2-3 months left in the season.

You have absolutely no idea if this was true.

The England forwards coach applied for the job.

awec · 21-06-2018 11:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I once ate in a bad restaurant so I've stopped going out for food now. Just because something happened once and had a negative outcome, doesn't necessarily mean the rationale isn't sound. I'm also sceptical, but I'd be no more or less sceptical if the coach was starting next week or January because my scepticism would be based on whether he can do what several other coaches have tried and failed to do, not on whether he can start straight away.

There could be reasons that are specific to them and their families and their location. Or, there could be hesitation due to reputational issues in Ulster.

I don't have any great amount of insight, I'm just trying to make an observation based on the optics.

No, I mean why do you think there was anything on the table for them to refuse?

Why would Ulster touch Bleyendaal with his injury record? Why would Hanrahan even be in the conversation - Munster surely need him. And I posted before, Ulster were not keen on Keatley.

More likely is that none of them were ever really under any serious consideration for a move north.

21-06-2018 12:03PM

awec wrote: »

How does it not make sense?

You realise the SRU have two teams in the Pro14, right?

I don't know exactly why the SRU are holding onto Dan, and I know Nucifora said it wasn't money related, but I think the most likely reason is that it's money related.

They may not want to give a competitive advantage to an opponent but realistically they'll just piss of the guy and he'll be on the phone to Joe, Andy and whatever stopgap they have in Ulster in the meantime if they do that.

Again, I've no facts - just looking at it objectively and trying to identify what is 'most likely'.

21-06-2018 12:06PM

awec wrote: »

No, I mean why do you think there was anything on the table for them to refuse?

Why would Ulster touch Bleyendaal with his injury record? Why would Hanrahan even be in the conversation - Munster surely need him. And I posted before, Ulster were not keen on Keatley.

More likely is that none of them were ever really under any serious consideration for a move north.

I'm basing it on Nucifora saying that none of them wanted to move North. I presumed that all three were approached with the option off the back of that. I can't remember where I read it, but I think it's somewhere over the last few pages. If I've picked that up wrong then it invalidates the observation - but I thought that was along the lines of the statement which he made.

awec · 21-06-2018 12:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know exactly why the SRU are holding onto Dan, and I know Nucifora said it wasn't money related, but I think the most likely reason is that it's money related.

They may not want to give a competitive advantage to an opponent but realistically they'll just piss of the guy and he'll be on the phone to Joe, Andy and whatever stopgap they have in Ulster in the meantime if they do that.

Again, I've no facts - just looking at it objectively and trying to identify what is 'most likely'.

Well there are a few possibilities:

1. They want money
2. They genuinely want to keep him for the remainder of his deal as they believe he can still add value to Scotland in the AIs and the build up to the 6N.
3. They don't want to give Ulster a leg up for the upcoming season
4. They're pissed off that McFarland signed a contract when they had no idea he was even talking to a club or wanted to leave
5. They want to make an example of McFarland by insisting notices are worked to try prevent #4 happening in future with their other coaches and other clubs

I'm sure there are more, but we know Nucifora said it's not #1.

21-06-2018 12:30PM

awec wrote: »

Well there are a few possibilities:

1. They want money
2. They genuinely want to keep him for the remainder of his deal as they believe he can still add value to Scotland in the AIs and the build up to the 6N.
3. They don't want to give Ulster a leg up for the upcoming season
4. They're pissed off that McFarland signed a contract when they had no idea he was even talking to a club or wanted to leave
5. They want to make an example of McFarland by insisting notices are worked to try prevent #4 happening in future with their other coaches and other clubs

I'm sure there are more, but we know Nucifora said it's not #1.

Given his reputation in these parts I'm almost a little surprised that this doesn't confirm the reason as #1

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 12:35PM

awec wrote: »

that has turned out to be a poor assumption?

Not yet anyway

iamjenko · 21-06-2018 12:45PM

jacothelad wrote: »

There must be great faith in McFarland....but there was great faith in Les and he was beyond appallingly bad as a head coach. So waiting for the next messiah isn't exactly filling everyone with hope given the past long wait.

Burkie1203 · 21-06-2018 12:55PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't know exactly why the SRU are holding onto Dan, and I know Nucifora said it wasn't money related, but I think the most likely reason is that it's money related.

They may not want to give a competitive advantage to an opponent but realistically they'll just piss of the guy and he'll be on the phone to Joe, Andy and whatever stopgap they have in Ulster in the meantime if they do that.

Again, I've no facts - just looking at it objectively and trying to identify what is 'most likely'.

EOS can start immediately......

MJohnston · 21-06-2018 01:02PM

I'll be curious to see how Kiss gets on at London Irish, as I'm still dubious about whether he was an actually bad coach or something else was going on.

Burkie1203 · 21-06-2018 01:03PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll be curious to see how Kiss gets on at London Irish, as I'm still dubious about whether he was an actually bad coach or something else was going on.

What's the story with backroom staff going.

launish116 · 21-06-2018 01:19PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll be curious to see how Kiss gets on at London Irish, as I'm still dubious about whether he was an actually bad coach or something else was going on.

What's the story with backroom staff going.

Fresh star i’m guessing and about of scape boating!

All I see on Twitter is teams starting preseason and we don’t have a coach and lossed a S&C coach etc. People wonder why Ulster fans moan! This all the makings of a new feck up beginning......throw in the large gaps in the squad!

Hands Like Flippers · 21-06-2018 01:19PM

molloyjh wrote: »

awec wrote: »

Firstly, it's the IRFU and not just Ulster.

And of course they knew. And they still signed him. And now we may not have a head coach in place for pre-season, in what really is a critical time for Ulster Rugby.

We've been down this road before, but we should just get the pom poms out and pretend all is good.

Yes, because people can be either utterly outraged or over the moon happy. There is no middle ground, is there?

Nucifora has clearly said that they'll get some clarity on what is going to happen after the summer tours. While the SRU may have said that they'll be retaining McFarland until January, it really isn't in their interests to do that. So I can see there being a release at some point. The question now is just a matter of when, which we won't find out until the end of the month at the earliest.

I think all AB is saying is that it makes far more sense to wait for a few weeks before assuming anything. There's no point in getting wound up about McFarland not getting here until January if he ends up getting here in July/August. At the end of the day they only went looking for a head coach very late in the season anyway. The last time a province had to do that they had to wait until part way through the season to get a coach in (Munster with JVG). Before that was when Leinster appointed an inexperienced candidate because they couldn't get anyone else. So it was hardly an ideal situation to start with anyway.

You have mentioned outrage a few times. It's a bit tiring. No-one else is.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 01:22PM

launish116 wrote: »

Fresh star i’m guessing and about of scape boating!

All I see on Twitter is teams starting preseason and we don’t have a coach and lossed a S&C coach etc. People wonder why Ulster fans moan! This all the makings of a new feck up beginning......throw in the large gaps in the squad!

Ulster have a coach with head coaching experience who is more than capable of handling pre-season.

Lack of S&C and physio is much more important this early in the year, S&C in particular. They'd want to get a shift on with that.

MJohnston · 21-06-2018 01:25PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What's the story with backroom staff going.

From the way Jonny Davis worded his Tweet about it, he was pushed and didn't jump.

Paul Smeenus · 21-06-2018 01:26PM

Venjur - you realise you have two posts above, one after the other, in one dismissing what Nucifora said because it suits you, in the other taking what he said as gospel, because it suits you? I just point it out because the optics of the two posts next to each other is amusing.

Anyway, excited about McFarland, would very happily take Farrell in the meantime if we have to. We'll win nothing, but am excited for next season.

launish116 · 21-06-2018 01:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lack of S&C and physio is much more important this early in the year, S&C in particular. They'd want to get a shift on with that.

Think some of the adverts said mid July, which is worrying again!

Paul Smeenus · 21-06-2018 01:29PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll be curious to see how Kiss gets on at London Irish, as I'm still dubious about whether he was an actually bad coach or something else was going on.

Yeah, he was a bad coach.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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