Ire vs Aus - Test Number Three

Buer · 21-06-2018 10:51AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

so...once? Look, while he's not the fastest, it's not his physical attributes - he's just someone who's very focused on a different parts of the game. I wouldn't say his handling is underrated...how do you rate him when you seldom see him using them? He goes out there and gets through work, but has a the opposite mindset for open play.

You're not watching then. POM has handled the ball a significant amount on this tour. Last week, the only guys who passed it more were the halfbacks and Ringrose (POM passed 6 times). He moved the ball more times than Henshaw or Kearney or more than the other 3 Irish back rowers combined. In the first test, he passed 5 times which is the same as Pocock and a very healthy number for a back row player.

He doesn't play a link game by trade but he's well able to move the ball and is extremely skillful. He's not asked to do it much as his role normally keeps him in around the ruck but when he does, such as this tour or on the Lions tour, he has shown some excellent pieces of skill with quick hands.

crossman47 · 21-06-2018 10:52AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

O'Mahony at 7 is unbelievable.
His style of play is just a world apart from what it needs - really he plays more like a second row.

He may have a fine game, but we'll really miss not having and openside.

Well POM has to play so its just a question of where.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 10:52AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

These criticisms are just completely hollow to me.

He's not "least suited" to openside play at all, in fact his strengths suit it. He's just an unknown quantity there because he hasn't been used there yet.

It's not a criticism of him, it's a criticism of picking hime in that position.

It's not an unknown quantity either. Style of play happens on a sort of a spectrum and for his whole career he's been on the opposite end of it.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 10:57AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

It's not a criticism of him, it's a criticism of picking hime in that position.

It's not an unknown quantity either. Style of play happens on a sort of a spectrum and for his whole career he's been on the opposite end of it.

No, he absolutely hasn't been on the opposite end of it.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 10:58AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, he absolutely hasn't been on the opposite end of it.

That's mind-boggling.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 11:00AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

That's mind-boggling.

Well to be fair I'm wrong to say he's not at the opposite end of "it", because to attempt to claim there's a single 'spectrum of play' for a back row forward is completely wrong really.

There are many areas of the game they're involved in. In none of those areas is he at the opposite end of any imaginary spectrum. The only player in our current back row who is would be Stander with how he's used offensively.

sydthebeat · 21-06-2018 11:05AM

Apart from scrum time, there's no real definite aspect to a 7s game over a 6.... It's actually more about balance in the back row over specific duties. What we get from POM in the air at line out time doesn't depend on t he number on his back. Neither does his tackle count (which is never overly high to be fair, due to him being a menace on their rucks.... Which is exactly what we want from an openside)

The balance is good in this row with stander, Ryan and Conan all good with defensive work which frees POM up to being a bollox on their ball. In attack, it's an excellent balance actually with stander a top class carrier in the tight, conan an excellent carrier in the loose and POM excellent at heads up link play.

I have worries for this game, but it's not in the back row.

Squidgy Black · 21-06-2018 11:07AM

I'm excited to see how Conan gets on. There's doubts over if he can make the step-up to this level, but he's impressed towards the tail end of this season playing some of his best rugby in a Leinster shirt.

Buer · 21-06-2018 11:11AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm excited to see how Conan gets on. There's doubts over if he can make the step-up to this level, but he's impressed towards the tail end of this season playing some of his best rugby in a Leinster shirt.

I'll be very intrigued to see how he goes. He certainly gives us something else with ball in hand and that's a good option to have but I get a sense of now or never for him in green. He needs to show he can do a job in this game because he's possibly not going to get another top level international start this side of the RWC barring injury.

21-06-2018 11:12AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm excited to see how Conan gets on. There's doubts over if he can make the step-up to this level, but he's impressed towards the tail end of this season playing some of his best rugby in a Leinster shirt.

I'm not overly worried about the backrow bar I don't think there is anyone there who absolutely excels at shifting bodies. POM is great at the technical aspect of the breakdown but I certainly think our backrow lacks a bit of power on the ground.

That said, our props are good to exceptional at clearing out, Ryan has incredible power at low angles despite his size and most of our backs are comfortable and capable at impacting the breakdown.

I echo what you've said though, I would love to see Conan realise his club play potential at this level. If he has a stand out game I'd be delighted and I really hope he takes this opportunity because as we've seen there aren't many on offer.

Ireland will have fully figured Australia out and I think they are going to fold on Saturday, game to be over by 50 minutes, Larmour to come on and add to his highlights reel at some stage and Ross Byrne to claim his first cap. Ireland by more than 10 but probably a lot more.

COME ON IRELAND.

21-06-2018 11:21AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Australia still available at +4 after the team announcements and I expect that to drop by 2 points by kick off.

Im surprised Coleman is still there, the cheek injury mustn't have been a bad as they thought. Oz are really going to target our line out this time, with tui in the back row as third jumper and hanigan on the bench. A 6/2 split for the third week by cheiks. If we can get phipps under pressure he will crack.... And cheika will be very slow to bring powell off the bench.

That Ireland midfield are getting a chance to redeem itself are the first test, hopefully they are up for it, and they get that extra bit of marshaling from Sexton inside. they will target Sexton of course, knowing we have a greenhorn replacement on the bench.

I think aus might just sneak this.
But I expect a cracking tough game.

It was +3 on paddy power before the squads were announced

sydthebeat · 21-06-2018 11:23AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was +3 on paddy power before the squads were announced

Weird, they were +4 all week and I checked this morning after I saw the teams and they were still +4.

Maybe the shortened to +3 yesterday...and the money is following Ireland

errlloyd · 21-06-2018 11:31AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm excited to see how Conan gets on. There's doubts over if he can make the step-up to this level, but he's impressed towards the tail end of this season playing some of his best rugby in a Leinster shirt.

The best rugby he's ever played was the group stages of the Champions Cup in 2016-2017. When he scored that hat-trick against Montpellier and stuff. Amazingly he was playing six, but he was smashing people.

Buer · 21-06-2018 11:36AM

Interesting comments from Schmidt regarding Ross Byrne training at 12 as well as 10 to be able to provide some extra versatility from the bench if required.

Trojan · 21-06-2018 11:46AM

Buer wrote: »

Interesting comments from Schmidt regarding Ross Byrne training at 12 as well as 10 to be able to provide some extra versatility from the bench if required.

IRFU might have to send Byrne to Ulster to get him some game time at 12 as he's 4th in the depth chart behind Henshaw, ROL & Daly (9th if you include outside centres).

arsebiscuits1 · 21-06-2018 11:51AM

Anyone having doubts about POM at 7 is overlooking the major reason he has been kept in the backrow.

He's an incredible lineout jumper.

It's no secret that a large chuck of Joes attacking plan stems directly from set piece.

Jordi is an accomplished and underrated jumper. But not quite at peerless and the Aussies would fancy a chance at him. Dev is obviously exceptional and Ryan is very adept.

But Schmidt has always picked a solid lineout option in his back row to give 3 viable options. It's nearly his primary MO.

CJ and Conan are not good enough jumpers and the Aussies would target them hard.

Any potential worry Joe has in his mind about POMs ability at 7 is far outweighed by the fact that he offers a solid platform for our attack to function

Dubinusa · 21-06-2018 11:53AM

Anytime Sexton is in the line up we have a chance. Aki can hit rucks, and carry into contact. Conan needs to show up. This is a golden opportunity for him, will be interesting to see how he goes. I think he's a game changer with his ball carrying and link play and I think he'll cause Oz all kinds of ptoblems.
I am disappointed that Marmion or Cooney didn't get the nod. Real chance for top end exposure. Glad to see Cronin start. At least we'll know where he stands afterwards. Disappointed for Hendo, real shame as he and Conan together could be lethal. Jack needs to lay down a marker to put pressure on church.
J Ryan is being flogged, I would have liked Beirne to start. POM at 7? We shall see but Stander is a good 6. Glad Stock is back , he will be hungry after missing last week. I expect us to play tight and hold onto the ball. Rack up some penalties and apply constant pressure. The midfield will be ok and surely Henshaw could not be as bad as he was 2 weeks ago. He's not Ringrose obviously but he is a good replacement.
Ross Byrne to condemn Carberry to the bench for ....ever.
Delighted for him. Hope he gets on the field and plays great. Awful to see Earls and Stock on the wings, awful for Oz.

arsebiscuits1 · 21-06-2018 12:01PM

Also.

Carbery dropped for an uncapped Leinster player.

Shocking Leinster bias from Joe.

You can mask this all you want. Joe used to be Leinster coach. He knows the Leinster players better. He is always going to pick them in a 50/50 even if its not close.

Shocking bias. Can't believe the establishment are ruining rugby. I hate everyone

phog · 21-06-2018 12:02PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

If we lose, we lose. You can't legislate for that.

How much gametime should they realistically have got in the 6N? Do you potentially sacrifice a GS?

No, you don't sacrifice a Grand Slam or even a chance of a Championship win but you can take a punt during a summer or autumn series and we simply don't do it.

Murray and that plays into him playing 80 minutes in crunch games. Murray is at a level where I don't blame Schmidt on that front

That's obvious

It certainly has the potential to bite Ireland but I think we are effed if Murray goes down anyway.

That bite might be lessened if these lads get more game time

Podge_irl wrote: »

Just being in the squad will benefit him and I'm sure we will see more of him in November.

How many squads do they need to be in before they're trusted for a 20 minute roll off the bench or a start with Murray available to come on? If they're not getting it now then will they really get much meaningful game time in the autumn?

Podge_irl · 21-06-2018 12:11PM

phog wrote: »

No, you don't sacrifice a Grand Slam or even a chance of a Championship win but you can take a punt during a summer or autumn series and we simply don't do it.

Schmidt has made unenforced changes in every single one of the games for the summer tour. While still having us in contention for a first Sanzar tour victory since the 70s.

How many squads do they need to be in before they're trusted for a 20 minute roll off the bench or a start with Murray available to come on? If they're not getting it now then will they really get much meaningful game time in the autumn?

This is Cooney's first right? The November games have always been used to give some gametime to more fringe players and do some rotation so yeah, I would expect them to get gametime there.

You can't magic depth out of thin air and a 40 minute stint against Australia is not going to be the difference maker that lets a player slip in seamlessly come world cup time. Having Sexton/Murray there is important for all the new players around them as well. Marmion has been in and around squads for years now - its possible that Schmidt has simply decided he will never be good enough for a larger role and giving him more gametime won't change that.

.ak · 21-06-2018 12:12PM

I’m nervous for that backrow. Think Hoopcock will take us to the cleaners.

sydthebeat · 21-06-2018 12:14PM

.ak wrote: »

I’m nervous for that backrow. Think Hoopcock will take us to the cleaners.

Hoopcock?

I really hope that doesn't take on.... I much prefer pooper myself.

awec · 21-06-2018 12:15PM

TBH I think we'll lose.

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 12:24PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Hoopcock?

I really hope that doesn't take on.... I much prefer pooper myself.

So does awec.....

Dubinusa · 21-06-2018 12:31PM

Regardless of the result, we'll know more about Cronin, Conan and Scannell. This to me is the most important aspect of the tour.
Larmour has quietly racked up the minutes and looks comfortable at this level. We also get a good look at Beirne and that is huge.
A lot of questions will be answered and going forward JS will know what kind of squad will be needed for Japan. Carberry should get game time for Munster and if he bombs, Ross Byrne will be next in line.
All in all, a lot of fellas are auditioning for the world cup and we'll know more next week. I think win or lose this match we're getting guys into the field that need to be evaluated. It's a win-win.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 12:49PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, he absolutely hasn't been on the opposite end of it.

Well I strongly disagree and I would argue that in watching him compared to someone like Hooper it's clear...but this is going nowhere and I'm sure neither of us want to flog a dead horse.

Elsewhere in the backrow, it might be better with Conan at 6 and Stander at 8 - Stander is stronger in the first couple of metres and Conan can really use the extra bit of room on the flank.

21-06-2018 12:50PM

.ak wrote: »

I’m nervous for that backrow. Think Hoopcock will take us to the cleaners.

awec wrote: »

TBH I think we'll lose.

We will score more than 30 points and Australia will score less than 20.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 12:55PM

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Anyone having doubts about POM at 7 is overlooking the major reason he has been kept in the backrow.
He's an incredible lineout jumper.
It's no secret that a large chuck of Joes attacking plan stems directly from set piece.
Jordi is an accomplished and underrated jumper. But not quite at peerless and the Aussies would fancy a chance at him. Dev is obviously exceptional and Ryan is very adept.

But Schmidt has always picked a solid lineout option in his back row to give 3 viable options. It's nearly his primary MO.
CJ and Conan are not good enough jumpers and the Aussies would target them hard.

Any potential worry Joe has in his mind about POMs ability at 7 is far outweighed by the fact that he offers a solid platform for our attack to function

Fair point about o'mahony in the lineout. He is by far our best operator there. While our lineout has been good this tour, it's been below par all year and we could easily slide back into that.

Not sure Conan is bad in the lineout, I just don't think he gets used enough to tell.
I haven't seen him do anything exceptional there, but I haven't seen him mess anything up either.

The Lost Sheep · 21-06-2018 12:56PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Just being in the squad will benefit him and I'm sure we will see more of him in November.

Obviously the half back depth remains an issue. But considering the amount of other changes in the team, keeping Sexton/Murray there gives them the best chance to perform.

To be honest, I think we are in trouble if Sexton or Murray go down in the world cup anyway and a cap or two against Australia for someone else won't change that.

Yes we probably will be in trouble if Sexton or Murray do go down in the world cup but not giving their back ups enough games in big tests outside the world cup is crazy and while a few caps wont change things too much giving the back ups/potential back ups a few games at least shows we did look at options.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Apart from scrum time, there's no real definite aspect to a 7s game over a 6.... It's actually more about balance in the back row over specific duties. What we get from POM in the air at line out time doesn't depend on t he number on his back. Neither does his tackle count (which is never overly high to be fair, due to him being a menace on their rucks.... Which is exactly what we want from an openside)

The balance is good in this row with stander, Ryan and Conan all good with defensive work which frees POM up to being a bollox on their ball. In attack, it's an excellent balance actually with stander a top class carrier in the tight, conan an excellent carrier in the loose and POM excellent at heads up link play.

I have worries for this game, but it's not in the back row.

Totally. Its all about the balance of the 3 guys who start and how they all operate together.

phog · 21-06-2018 12:57PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Schmidt has made unenforced changes in every single one of the games for the summer tour. While still having us in contention for a first Sanzar tour victory since the 70s.

We're talking about scrumhalf? I missed both games so far but based on match reports I'm fairly sure Murray has played almost the entire 160 mins. Is this incorrect?

This is Cooney's first right? The November games have always been used to give some gametime to more fringe players and do some rotation so yeah, I would expect them to get gametime there.

You can't magic depth out of thin air and a 40 minute stint against Australia is not going to be the difference maker that lets a player slip in seamlessly come world cup time. Having Sexton/Murray there is important for all the new players around them as well. Marmion has been in and around squads for years now - its possible that Schmidt has simply decided he will never be good enough for a larger role and giving him more gametime won't change that.

Based on what you're saying so you seem happy that we go into the WC with Cooney as our reserve SH and he possibly only having two starts and those yet to come in the Autumn games.

Ire vs Aus - Test Number Three

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