Ire vs Aus - Test Number Three

Webbs · 21-06-2018 08:56AM

I would still be concerned with Schmidts reverting to no risk type again. The first test changes were made and OK Ireland lost but players would get a feeling for starting a test match. The next 2 tests barring injuries hes not really looked to blood guys who would need to step up in the case of key players not being fit. Am thinking here especially at half back, the reliance on Murray and Sexton staying fit gets more and more to a fingers crossed situation than genuinely building strength in depth.

Former Former · 21-06-2018 08:57AM

vienne86 wrote: »

Surprising back row there - I'm astonished Murphy isn't starting. Pity about the injuries, but still a very good team. This could go either way on Saturday.

Well, POM had to be retained after his showing last week, Stander is an absolute cert every time, so it was either Murphy or Conan to start; Murphy got 80 minutes in the first test and 40 in the second, whereas Conan got 10 minutes in the first.

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 08:57AM

Buer wrote: »

Happy with the team given the injuries. I'm not nearly as concerned as others by the back row. It is as balanced as other weeks. We've just come to overlook the fact that Stander is more of a 6. For me, he's playing where he's most effective now. We'll possibly lose a little bit of impact at the breakdown given Conan isn't prominent there but he's a far more dynamic carrier in the loose. No issue with POM at 7. He has played there in the past including in green.

With Ringrose out, I think we might see Aki double up as a flanker at times and really focus on rucks in defence too.

Interesting bench calls. Ryan is ahead of Porter at this point, for me. Beirne on the bench again which confirms in my mind that he's not threatening a starting place, any time soon. Murphy is a loser here. He's has enjoyed plenty of game time on tour but certainly would have fancied a spot with Leavy ruled out. It underlines just how important Stander is to the plan, I reckon.

Most intriguing is Ross Byrne, probably. I definitely thought he'd be going home without a spot in the 23. This is a big game to introduce him into. He'll probably get 5-10 minutes at most but if Sexton is injured, it's going to make things very interesting.

Yeah, I'm okay with that back row too. POM did well on the ground last week and Stander is probably our best out and out blindside. We need to get a look at Conan in big games like this too. I'm not convinced he's at this level, but hopefully he can prove me wrong.

I can see Murray and Sexton staying on for as long as possible and neither of Marmion or Byrne getting much of an opportunity unless there's an injury. I'd agree with others that we've missed an opportunity to give at least 1 of Murrays back ups a start in a big game like this, but had we won the first Test we'd have had more scope for that I suppose.

I'm worried about our centres, but playing outside Sexton should help. We don't have a second play maker though, which I think we need at this stage. I can't see us playing the most exciting rugby but if we can contain Pocock and Hooper again (big if) then I think we've a good chance.

gleesonisgod · 21-06-2018 08:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Reckon the flood gates are going to open on Saturday and we'll properly click. Ireland by 10 or more.

I would be wholly on board with this comment if Ringer was playing.

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 09:01AM

Webbs wrote: »

I would still be concerned with Schmidts reverting to no risk type again. The first test changes were made and OK Ireland lost but players would get a feeling for starting a test match. The next 2 tests barring injuries hes not really looked to blood guys who would need to step up in the case of key players not being fit. Am thinking here especially at half back, the reliance on Murray and Sexton staying fit gets more and more to a fingers crossed situation than genuinely building strength in depth.

I do think had we won the first Test then things would have been different. They need to balance the development aspect with winning to a degree. We couldn't have come home having lost 3-0. And now with a series decider on the line I don't think anyone would really be happy for us to "throw" it in favour of development.

But say we won the first Test, then we rotate a bit in the second knowing that worst case scenarios was that we had a series decider in Sydney anyway. That way we get 2 Tests with decent rotation and good blooding of players. Losing the first Test meant we needed to win the second.

phog · 21-06-2018 09:04AM

I think Kearney, Earls, Henshaw, Murray, James Ryan, POM & CJ have started all 3 Summer Series of game - Scrumhalf is a real concern with Joe only giving the reserves a few minutes here and there.

I assume he'll start one of them v Italy, USA and possibly Argentina in the AIs but we have to hope Murray is fit for the WC.

thomond2006 · 21-06-2018 09:26AM

phog wrote: »

I think Kearney, Earls, Henshaw, Murray, James Ryan, POM & CJ have started all 3 Summer Series of game - Scrumhalf is a real concern with Joe only giving the reserves a few minutes here and there.

I assume he'll start one of them v Italy, USA and possibly Argentina in the AIs but we have to hope Murray is fit for the WC.

I think a series win is worth going for and that means Murray starts. I agree that Murray should be starting max 2 of the AIs.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 09:32AM

O'Mahony at 7 is unbelievable.
His style of play is just a world apart from what it needs - really he plays more like a second row.

He may have a fine game, but we'll really miss not having and openside.

Sycamore Tree · 21-06-2018 09:40AM

What is the Ringrose injury?

Squidgy Black · 21-06-2018 09:41AM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

What is the Ringrose injury?

Foot apparently

CurryFlavoured · 21-06-2018 09:43AM

I'm happy to see Conan but I think the backrow lacks balance with POM at 7.
Ringrose is only a significant loss if our centres hit bad form, because quality wise Aki and Henshaw are two excellent players. Hopefully they click well this time.

Podge_irl · 21-06-2018 09:44AM

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Ringrose is only a significant loss if our centres hit bad form, because quality wise Aki and Henshaw are two excellent players. Hopefully they click well this time.

Don't really agree with that. Aki and Henshaw are indeed very good players but Ringrose is a class above at 13, especially in defence.

Squidgy Black · 21-06-2018 09:46AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

O'Mahony at 7 is unbelievable.
His style of play is just a world apart from what it needs - really he plays more like a second row.

He may have a fine game, but we'll really miss not having and openside.

We don't have another openside in the squad though. Jordi isn't an openside by definition, he's a 6/8 who can cover 7.

Nermal · 21-06-2018 09:48AM

Genia a bigger loss to them than anything we have suffered.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 09:56AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

We don't have another openside in the squad though. Jordi isn't an openside by definition, he's a 6/8 who can cover 7.

Agree on what murphy is, but that's the most suitable we've got. O'Mahony is the lease suitable (Even if you include the second-rows, he's the least suitable bar Toner).
Heck, Conan would probably make a pretty good job of it, he's got most of what it takes.

I think it's wishful thinking from Joe?

Bridge93 · 21-06-2018 09:56AM

Mad that we're essentially at what is probably our 5th choice openside and it's somebody as good as POM.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 09:57AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

Agree on what murphy is, but that's the most suitable we've got. O'Mahony is the lease suitable (Even if you include the second-rows, he's the least suitable bar Toner).
Heck, Conan would probably make a pretty good job of it, he's got most of what it takes.

I think it's wishful thinking from Joe?

What makes Murphy "most suitable" and POM "least suitable"?

Squidgy Black · 21-06-2018 09:59AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

Agree on what murphy is, but that's the most suitable we've got. O'Mahony is the lease suitable (Even if you include the second-rows, he's the least suitable bar Toner).
Heck, Conan would probably make a pretty good job of it, he's got most of what it takes.

I think it's wishful thinking from Joe?

O'Mahony was superb at the breakdown last week. He had more impact in an 'openside' effect than any other player over the last two tests.

Not sure where this is all coming from. Just because he's solid in the lineout doesn't mean he plays like a second row.

phog · 21-06-2018 09:59AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think a series win is worth going for and that means Murray starts. I agree that Murray should be starting max 2 of the AIs.

I'm not so sure it is - also if we lose the series we have a double whammy of losing the series and not giving game time to a reserve scrumhalf 18 months out from the WC.

I assume he'll have to start one to be match fit for the ABs but then that leaves us with only 2 games for the reserves which makes it even more difficult to understand the game time they've got this series.

We're fecked if they're not available for the AIs after almost ignoring them in this series and the 6Ns.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 10:01AM

Bridge93 wrote: »

Mad that we're essentially at what is probably our 5th choice openside and it's somebody as good as POM.

He isn't

Bridge93 · 21-06-2018 10:01AM

Also couldn't believe it when I saw this was only POMs 50th cap. Had presumed he'd way more. That two year gap I suppose accounted for a lot

Former Former · 21-06-2018 10:05AM

POM will be fine, he was the best breakdown operator on the pitch last week even though Pocock, Hooper and Leavy were out there.

Having seen Rhys Ruddock also do a sterling job at 7 in the past, and the ten-year debate over whether O'Brien is better at 6 or 7, I'm not sure there's really that much of an issue for a guy to switch across.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 10:11AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

O'Mahony was superb at the breakdown last week. He had more impact in an 'openside' effect than any other player over the last two tests.

Not sure where this is all coming from. Just because he's solid in the lineout doesn't mean he plays like a second row.

Breakdown* is only a small part of openside play. I think we get distracted by this and ignore the rest.

O'Mahony doesn't give you link-play/supporting play that are the bread&butter of an openside. He doesn't have the speed to get up and nail players in defence to stub things out.
These are things that need to be done for a team to succeed.

RE second-row comparison, it was based purely on his style of play around the field. He spends his time making tackles close in, hitting rucks, little bits of ball-carrying...similar to what you expect from a second-row.

*O'Mahony got 3 steals last weekend and fair play to him - it was an exception though.

awec · 21-06-2018 10:14AM

Cooney coming home with about 30 seconds of game time total. Marmion will probably be the same.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 10:16AM

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

Breakdown* is only a small part of openside play. I think we get distracted by this and ignore the rest.

O'Mahony doesn't give you link-play/supporting play that are the bread&butter of an openside. He doesn't have the speed to get up and nail players in defence to stub things out.
These are things that need to be done for a team to succeed.

RE second-row comparison, it was based purely on his style of play around the field. He spends his time making tackles close in, hitting rucks, little bits of ball-carrying...similar to what you expect from a second-row.

*O'Mahony got 3 steals last weekend and fair play to him - it was an exception though.

Getting up in the line for an openside defensive is not about speed. It's about decision-making and work rate. Both of which he is excellent at. It's about knowing when you are more valuable in the defensive breakdown or in the defensive line. If the team want him to lead that, he's able for it.

Yes, the link play is an issue. Not something Murphy is better than him at however.

Buer · 21-06-2018 10:16AM

POM will be fine. He has excellent hands (very underrated part of his game) and has linked up superbly well on several occasions on this tour so far. Notably taking the offload last week from Ringrose before offloading to Henshaw or the previous week when getting the ball in wider channels and showing some lovely touches.

And many considered Leavy to be our first choice openside going into this tour. Leavy is a lot of things but he does not have great speed off the mark at all. POM is well able to judge the attack and shut it down behind the gain line.

thomond2006 · 21-06-2018 10:29AM

phog wrote: »

I'm not so sure it is - also if we lose the series we have a double whammy of losing the series and not giving game time to a reserve scrumhalf 18 months out from the WC.

I assume he'll have to start one to be match fit for the ABs but then that leaves us with only 2 games for the reserves which makes it even more difficult to understand the game time they've got this series.

We're fecked if they're not available for the AIs after almost ignoring them in this series and the 6Ns.

If we lose, we lose. You can't legislate for that.

How much gametime should they realistically have got in the 6N? Do you potentially sacrifice a GS?

I don't think Schmidt believes in the backups vs. Murray and that plays into him playing 80 minutes in crunch games. Murray is at a level where I don't blame Schmidt on that front. It certainly has the potential to bite Ireland but I think we are effed if Murray goes down anyway.

Podge_irl · 21-06-2018 10:30AM

awec wrote: »

Cooney coming home with about 30 seconds of game time total. Marmion will probably be the same.

Just being in the squad will benefit him and I'm sure we will see more of him in November.

Obviously the half back depth remains an issue. But considering the amount of other changes in the team, keeping Sexton/Murray there gives them the best chance to perform.

To be honest, I think we are in trouble if Sexton or Murray go down in the world cup anyway and a cap or two against Australia for someone else won't change that.

May Contain Small Parts · 21-06-2018 10:39AM

Buer wrote: »

POM will be fine. He has excellent hands (very underrated part of his game) and has linked up superbly well on several occasions on this tour so far. Notably taking the offload last week from Ringrose before offloading to Henshaw or the previous week when getting the ball in wider channels and showing some lovely touches.

so...once? Look, while he's not the fastest, it's not his physical attributes - he's just someone who's very focused on a different parts of the game. I wouldn't say his handling is underrated...how do you rate him when you seldom see him using them? He goes out there and gets through work, but has a the opposite mindset for open play.

Buer wrote: »

And many considered Leavy to be our first choice openside going into this tour. Leavy is a lot of things but he does not have great speed off the mark at all. POM is well able to judge the attack and shut it down behind the gain line.

I suppose here I'd make the comparison here between Van Der Flier and Leavy - the VDF is much stronger at the defensive parts of openside play and Leavy at the attacking (kind of like pocock and hooper...ish). Either way, shutting down behind the gain line, while very useful, isn't what you want your openside doing.

This isn't having a go at O'Mahony by the way, I wouldn't criticise someone for not being able to do something that isn't their job. But it isn't his job.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 10:44AM

These criticisms are just completely hollow to me.

He's not "least suited" to openside play at all, in fact his strengths suit it. He's just an unknown quantity there because he hasn't been used there yet.

This definitive claim that Murphy is our best suited openside while POM is our least suited is baseless to me. I'm looking forward to see how POM goes, gives us another string in our bow if he shows he is capable of quickly shifting between the roles in the space of a week.

Ire vs Aus - Test Number Three

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